tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6540028862562252808..comments2024-03-19T07:56:00.031-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: The Long Shadow of AD&DJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65715449282726689332024-01-17T08:30:58.293-05:002024-01-17T08:30:58.293-05:00As near as I can tell, I found this post 14 years...As near as I can tell, I found this post 14 years after all the cool kids, but it super resonated with me. My group of 12 year old proto-nerds definitely thought AD&D was "grown up" D&D, and Basic was just training wheels. When I went to the local library to play on Saturdays, all the college kids had the AD&D books, so for sure that's what I ran out and bought. <br /><br />I also have to admit we were just playing Basic with some AD&D flavor all along, but I wouldn't have realized that had I not read this post. Anyway, I'm an OG gamer who's spent the last few years trying to claw his way back into the hobby - big thanks to you and all the guys who kept the lights on while I was away.Timmy Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07635687139593341472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25269258381580701362010-09-20T16:45:17.302-04:002010-09-20T16:45:17.302-04:00We started with the blue book that was, I guess Se...We started with the blue book that was, I guess Second Edition at the time...that is the one with the people fighting a dragon in a cave on top of a heap of gold on the cover. You could only get to level 3, so when we became very excited about the whole thing and had a lot of fun with it over a 1980/1981 winter's weekend (with the Dio version of Black Sabbath blaring an accompaniment) we >had< to get AD&D. We used all the rules we could figure out. None of us were nerds, really. Except maybe the guy who was in the high school band. I was a cheerleader for heaven's sake... ^^lazycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08391072231837230851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77672096286305748192010-09-20T15:34:13.712-04:002010-09-20T15:34:13.712-04:00Like Jim, I thought you had to go in order of Basi...Like Jim, I thought you had to go in order of Basic, Expert, then Advanced. Like nearly everyone else, I ended up with a hodge podge that Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edtition Companion nails right on the head.<br /><br />Interestingly enough, I added many of the ignored combat rules after I started using the combat computer wheel that came in an issue of Dragon (anyone else remember that one?). It had the AC modifiers for weapons printed right on it.<br /><br />As far as the coolness factor, every single kid in my high school gaming group from '83-'87 would have been considered in the "cool" group. This was also at a large urban high school (2500 students). We all played multiple sports, had girlfriends (some of whom tried to play), and were considered popular. There was definitely a window then where the nerd stigma had not completely plagued the game.arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33942246071003854442010-09-20T00:16:58.224-04:002010-09-20T00:16:58.224-04:00I think that a big reason AD&D was "D&...I think that a big reason AD&D was "D&D" was, as others mentioned, that the balance of the published material was for AD&D. Even more so when 2ed rolled in. I'm not sure if TSR would have put it this way, but it certainly seemed to be the flagship game. That probably was the case orignally because Gygax wanted to reduce the royalty payments to Arneson (Gygax pretty much admitted to that in at least one interview). However, I don't doubt that a lot of folks bought AD&D because it was more complex, and thus seen as having more depth. <br /><br />On a side note, while I probably would have agreed at the time that D&D was a nerdy pastime, the group I was playing with in late high school included a member of the wrestling team, a member of the tennis team (myself), a member of the baseball team and a kid who played baseball in one of the local leagues. Another kid was also a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. All in all, we had more folks who played at least one sport than those who did not. And this was well into the 2ed. era.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05465546887455130969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59130534040503235042010-09-19T16:59:17.762-04:002010-09-19T16:59:17.762-04:00I just starting running a group through AD&D&#...I just starting running a group through AD&D's "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" this past Friday, using the original AD&D rules (somewhat mixed with OSRIC). <br /><br />And, I pretty much dropped or changed the exact same things that James mentioned. I found from reading the rules 25+ years later with "fresh eyes" that we never played the game "by the book" back in the day. I learned to play from friends, versus from reading the books, and I always assumed they had taught me the right way. But, like most people, we played either a simplified version of AD&D, or else an "expanded" edition of Moldvay Basic. <br /><br />Just trying to read through the Surprise, Initiative, and Unarmed Combat rules in the PHB and DMG was giving me a headache on Friday, so we just make some house-rules on the spot and moved on.Martin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11854760943630230553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39486989903404184862010-09-19T12:48:55.640-04:002010-09-19T12:48:55.640-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66331828458074640072010-09-19T12:46:03.359-04:002010-09-19T12:46:03.359-04:00Several observations/recollections:
I recall at t...Several observations/recollections:<br /><br />I recall at the time throughout the 80s, regular D&D was for not-too-serious RPGers, meaning that it didn't present much depth in it's game mechanics and character development/creation (race as class). Not that any of this is true, but D&D had this reputation of being "generic". <br /><br />AD&D OTOH, was just the opposite: rich in depth of game mechanic (at the time) and PC creation was a little more complex (i.e. race and class separate).<br /><br />Another appeal to AD&D me was that, quite frankly, I thought D&D was just too easy to grasp. I wanted something a little more complex and esoteric (am I using the word right?)to learn and play.<br /><br />AD&D had rules for everything: unarmed combat, poison types, rules for siege warfare,(IMO) many more interesting magic items, etc.<br /><br />But one of the beauties of the game is that if you didn't want a set of rules (like the aforementioned unarmed combat), the system didn't break down. IT still worked. Even if you used your own version, or someone else's (Dragon Magazine was THE place to look), the game still worked.<br /><br />AD&D was as complex or simple as you wanted it, because it was modular. Not that it was intended that way, but that's how it turned out.<br /><br />Then you get into the various home or game club games with "house rules" for AD&D. Another beautiful aspect of the game: by it being unintentionally modular, a DM could make it his own by creating "house rules" for the game. Therefore each game/campaign was unique and personal.<br /><br />How many of us went into a new game at a game club/convention and asked "Are there any house rules?"<br /><br />IT was AD&D at it core (basic combat resolution, Vancian magic system, saving throws, race and class mixtures), but some little bits and pieces in the periphery of the core could be fiddle with and given a personality which is a direct reflection of the DM and his players.<br /><br />Another aspect that appealed to me was the modules: most of the best modules were written for AD&D. The whole GDQ campaign was epic. So was ToEE. How about the S-series of modules or the Saltmarsh series?<br /><br />With the exception of B2, X1, and the Desert Nomads series of D&D modules, no others IMO stand out as particularly exciting. <br /><br />Again, this is just my opinion of what I thought in the past. Through the OSR and many more years of gaming, I see both AD&D and D&D can be as complex and simple as you want it to be.blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76503386134059609842010-09-19T10:28:47.864-04:002010-09-19T10:28:47.864-04:00I grew up in rural Ohio and it took a family vacat...I grew up in rural Ohio and it took a family vacation to upstate New York in early 80's for me to discover D&D. My cousins got me into a game. Like James, I got my books at the local Sears -- which was kinda surreal given that the only products on display were washing machines and sofas. You went to counter and looked up what you wanted in the mighty Wish Book (I knew the page by heart) and the clerk disappeared into storage either to return with your prize or the the dreaded phrase, 'we'll have to order it.' The juxtaposition of obtaining these magical, exotic tomes from Sears!? It was like finding a tomb behind a corkboard at the DMV.<br /><br />I started with Moldvay because of two misconceptions; First, I honestly thought that one acquired mastery by learning basic, then expert, THEN advanced. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned that BX came out after AD&D.<br /><br />Secondly, I had no idea where else to get polygonal dice other than the box sets. They even gave you a little crayon to color in the numbers with.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302303346819023760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75412329514865210352010-09-19T09:56:35.116-04:002010-09-19T09:56:35.116-04:00the Erol Otus covers are up there for me just beca...the Erol Otus covers are up there for me just because they were the first thing i seen, but also around that time the Fiend Folio was a book my brother had and it scared the hell out of me. the Githyanki invaded my imagination with crazy crap as a young child since it was like a proto-undead looking creature with the ability to sort of dust into invisibility from the art work. later on the cover of the PHB creeped me out too because of the idol. all good stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10461423984939582152010-09-19T09:21:52.867-04:002010-09-19T09:21:52.867-04:00Similar - started with Holmes, quickly purchased a...Similar - started with Holmes, quickly purchased all the AD&D books as they were released, used what we liked & houseruled the others, mixed in a healthy dose of Arduin, Judges Guild and whatever was shiny in Dragon at the time & just called it all "D&D".Captain Tightpantshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13776345884480352979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82630451268686766232010-09-19T08:25:46.669-04:002010-09-19T08:25:46.669-04:00"There are arguments to be made that Spielber..."There are arguments to be made that Spielberg, especially in the 70s and early 80s, was just a geek as well, not a cultural connoisseur." <br /><br />He appears to have been both. Quite the geek (and one who to this day enjoys the fact that he can rub it in the face of those who treated him like one), but also one with a keen sense of what was happening in the culture of the time - hence his ability in those days to hit one after another out of the ball park. I think it's likely he was right to portray the game as he did, because again - for a brief, maybe very brief moment - playing D&D was the latest cool thing to do, not the bastion of all things nerd it became portrayed as in subsequent years. Just why and how that happened, of course, is probably worth it's own study.David Griffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06629314279592541401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36258315221724539102010-09-19T07:14:43.403-04:002010-09-19T07:14:43.403-04:00I find it interesting that there's a sense tha...<i>I find it interesting that there's a sense that D&D was, alpha and omega, for nerds only</i><br /><br />Our group was introduced to D&D by an older brother who was in the army. In the early days, some of the first D&D players were soldiers who came to it through war gaming.Matthew Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17343263539473683579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40357693346942930592010-09-19T05:03:44.184-04:002010-09-19T05:03:44.184-04:00"On a completely unrelated note - have you se..."On a completely unrelated note - have you seen what the cover of that player's handbook has inspired?"<br /><br />Some of the most stupid looking people imaginable standing around making me swear that I would do anything to be able to magically jump into their illustrated world and beat their insufferable asses to a pulp like some kind of ultraviolent A-Ha video? :)Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66022877479211763092010-09-19T04:19:59.498-04:002010-09-19T04:19:59.498-04:00On a completely unrelated note - have you seen wha...On a completely unrelated note - have you seen what the cover of that player's handbook has inspired?<br /><br />http://media.photobucket.com/image/scroll%20of%20exalts/Johnny_Redactor/SOE_cover.jpg<br /><br />KAngry Wombathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033824369630612971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3365136298954848452010-09-19T04:15:42.629-04:002010-09-19T04:15:42.629-04:00red box for a few months and then AD&D (the pl...red box for a few months and then AD&D (the player's handbook with the mage) and we used the full set of rules for at least an year :)Fabio Milito Pagliarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13043436735116048822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33247776295940629092010-09-19T01:29:18.801-04:002010-09-19T01:29:18.801-04:00@Dave G:
"[I]f it had been universally seen a...@Dave G:<br />"[I]f it had been universally seen as just for nerds, a crack cultural connoisseur like Spielberg c. 1981 wouldn't have used it to establish the characters who were supposed to be cool."<br /><br />There are arguments to be made that Spielberg, especially in the 70s and early 80s, was just a geek as well, not a cultural connoisseur. To wit, this post from an old-schooler:<br /><br />http://themediageeks.blogspot.com/2010/08/geek-media-tropes-spielberg-dreyfuss.html<br /><br />But overall, I think you're right. However geeky I was at that time, the people who introduced me to D&D were stoners, listened to metal, had water-beds and smoked at high-school, which was both scary and unfathomably cool to me. They taught me how to TP houses in 3rd grade, which gave me a mystique through junior high that could not be drowned out my own nerdiness.Spawn of Endrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431848914619887998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76769935377360451462010-09-19T01:16:18.269-04:002010-09-19T01:16:18.269-04:00I started with AD&D (Player's Handbook che...I started with AD&D (Player's Handbook checked out from the library) and then found the Moldvay version of Basic D&D and Expert in a bargain bin of my FLGS. <br /><br />I never had much of an issue with "Race as Class" since "Class" simply means a group of something with similar traits. It also has roots in math and biology. <br /><br />Moldvay's & Cook's D&D seemed to streamline the process of making a character, and with one set of attribute bonuses for everything, which made more sense game-wise. <br />13-15 +1<br />16-17 +2<br /> 18 +3<br />The great thing is that the similarity of AD&D to D&D meant that elements could be ported over easily, and my Monster Manual and Fiend Folio found pretty steady use during our BECM campaigns.Eric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37027898718696121772010-09-19T01:08:02.462-04:002010-09-19T01:08:02.462-04:00Agreed. To a great extent AD&D is D&D for ...Agreed. To a great extent AD&D is D&D for me a many gamers, even though we started with Holmes or Moldvary. I suspect that it's due in large part to the standardization/marketing push in Dragon Magazine. There was a lot of pressure to play "the right way".<br /><br />You see this today in software markets (the analogy with which I am most familiar)--a homogeneous user base makes for a broad user base and lower support costs.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12096724870715714696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6471535102091198992010-09-19T00:26:10.165-04:002010-09-19T00:26:10.165-04:00"I know that's a little off topic, but I ..."I know that's a little off topic, but I find it interesting that there's a sense that D&D was, alpha and omega, for nerds only, when I remember it differently when I first discovered the game"<br /><br />Maybe because I first started playing circa 1991-1992 sometime.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12332640251215429462010-09-19T00:20:52.541-04:002010-09-19T00:20:52.541-04:00"Exactly, and that mystique made them just ab..."Exactly, and that mystique made them just about the coolest nerd-targeted products ever."<br /><br />And yet it's funny. The ones I first saw playing weren't 'nerds', and it really didn't click as something that only 'nerds' would play. Remember Elliott's brother Michael? He was set up to be the cool kid, the jock, the football player who picked on his uncool younger brother. Yet what are they all playing when young Elliott discovers E.T.? That's right, at least a D&D knock-off (and if it had been universally seen as just for nerds, a crack cultural connoisseur like Spielberg c. 1981 wouldn't have used it to establish the characters who were supposed to be cool). Just like it was a combination of kids that weren't the most popular, along with some of the school jocks who were, that I noticed playing. <br /><br />Oh, it didn't take long. Especially after that movie with Tom Hanks in it. I seem to remember the number of kids who had been playing it drop like my bank accounts a day after that. But if there was some stigma ahead of time, it seemed to be more in the minds of those already playing. Those of us who stumbled in during the 'craze' time didn't see it as any different than Trivial Pursuit. Just different in that parents and others were making a big fuss about it - which made it a guaranteed kid magnet. <br /><br />I know that's a little off topic, but I find it interesting that there's a sense that D&D was, alpha and omega, for nerds only, when I remember it differently when I first discovered the game (heck, the quarterback on our junior varsity football team was one of the three I first heard discussing it all those years ago).David Griffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06629314279592541401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47636364048593445772010-09-19T00:17:42.456-04:002010-09-19T00:17:42.456-04:00In fact I would say the the spirit of D&D (all...In fact I would say the the spirit of D&D (all early versions, never played 2e or higher) was to use and customize what you will.Darnizhaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15005189125696185700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85810733169489040882010-09-19T00:16:06.706-04:002010-09-19T00:16:06.706-04:00Yeah, I started with Basic and moved onto AD&D...Yeah, I started with Basic and moved onto AD&D along with my cohorts, mostly because of the ability to mix classes with different races, and we didn't use all the rules, but I don't think Gary did either.Darnizhaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15005189125696185700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51999169178325326582010-09-19T00:06:20.653-04:002010-09-19T00:06:20.653-04:00I am slowly coming around to the conclusion--despi...I am slowly coming around to the conclusion--despite the fact that my current game is Microlite 74 plus house rules--that AD&D is the One True D&D.<br /><br />And by that I mean: all houseruled other D&Ds converge on it. Look at Microlite 75, or indeed, OD&D+Supplements 1-3. Note that at last year's GaryCon, Frank Mentzer was running, you guessed it, AD&D.<br /><br />Except that, of course, the One True D&D is AD&D with the clunky and non-working bits omitted.Adam Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368676086759298705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12493198093221514122010-09-19T00:02:47.022-04:002010-09-19T00:02:47.022-04:00The majority of the modules (even though we didn&#...The majority of the modules (even though we didn't use them - modules were a 'cop-out' for the dm) were said to be for AD&D. They were hardback books. They had tiny printing, and brooked no distracted off-hand reading. They had a proliferation of tables and.. mathematical theory! AD&D demanded to be taken seriously. You were truly in it now, kid!<br /><br />I had started out dm'ing with Moldvay, and we had a great time. Then a couple years later one of our older friends, who had originally heard about D&D from us, came home from the university and had been playing the Advanced game. Our characters were older, but one of us had only just gotten close to demanding the Expert rules for the arcane secrets of 4th level. Pfft.. 4th level? Our friend from college played a character with over 100 hit points! He shared tales of battling scores of orcs at once! Trolls! Giants!<br /><br />Clearly, we had been outclassed and surpassed. He agreed to usher us into Advanced fun. We borrowed his book around, astounded at the degree of Advancement evident in rolling up characters. You even rolled your height and weight! It was clearly.. well.. advanced.<br /><br />We played AD&D that summer, and I promptly got very enamored with buying books I wasn't going to use (since I wasn't the dm for AD&D, and since that group of friends didn't play after that summer.) But my decided impression then, and in the many AD&D groups I played in afterward, was that, in fact, NO one knew all the AD&D rules.. let alone used them.migellitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17106614212764056058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24974472975582735092010-09-18T23:47:14.060-04:002010-09-18T23:47:14.060-04:00"there's no question that those AD&D ..."there's no question that those AD&D hardcovers were the books that everyone saw back then, especially during the years of the 'Satanic panic,'"<br /><br />Exactly, and that mystique made them just about the coolest nerd-targeted products ever.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.com