tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6548753066879723184..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Appendix N, 1981 EditionJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51312010151895181132011-06-16T12:28:31.099-04:002011-06-16T12:28:31.099-04:00Viktor, I see what you're saying and agree tha...Viktor, I see what you're saying and agree that Scalzi isn't pushing the boundaries of the genre. But then again SF can always use "eminently readable" writers capable of revitalizing the mainstream tradition, especially since many of the canonical works in that tradition are not what I would call "eminently readable." (Asimov and Clarke, I'm looking at the two of you; Heinlein, you're only slightly off the hook.)<br /><br />Ob fantasy: Joe Abercrombie has certain similarities with Scalzi. Nothing Abercrombie is doing to fantasy is all that original or groundbreaking. (Others before him have deconstructed the Manicheanism at the heart of much fantasy and subjected the fantastic to the generic conventions of realism.) But I find the books to be far beyond most other fantasy in terms of zip, zing, and sheer narrative life. We may have seen all these characters before in one form or another, but they've rarely lived this well. Style does matter.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52316830412296261022011-06-16T09:53:59.323-04:002011-06-16T09:53:59.323-04:00I don't dislike Scalzi's work, and he also...I don't dislike Scalzi's work, and he also seems to have the advantage of having an online presence that suggests he a decent, clever, and stand-up guy. But is he revolutionary SF? No, I don't think so.<br /><br />He <i>is</i>, however, eminently readable (in that his language and ideas are not tremendously hard to digest), and doesn't demand that his readers have degrees in some science, engineering, or maths realm in order to follow along as seems to be all too common amongst "respectable SF" circles these days.<br /><br />Sometimes you really want a nice grilled cheeze on white bread, and Scalzi seems a lot like that...Viktorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867648528753994863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3588995524426192642011-06-16T09:48:22.646-04:002011-06-16T09:48:22.646-04:00But it suffers from fairly flat characterization a...<i>But it suffers from fairly flat characterization and an obvious project as an homage to its predecessors without, in fact, all that much in the way of a new voice saying something</i><br /><br>Hmm -- then perhaps <i>Fuzzy Nation</i> isn't an anomaly at all, because what you say pretty well mirrors my own criticisms.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41875363995403283022011-06-16T09:43:36.896-04:002011-06-16T09:43:36.896-04:00Black Company out in 1981
Yep -- fair enough. And...<i>Black Company out in 1981</i><br /><br />Yep -- fair enough. And Wolfe's Long Sun books neither. Oddly enough, there's only a handful of works post-1981 that I think deserve to be on the list, but there's no point in playing that exercise yet again: it's a well-worn-to-the-nub meme already.<br /><br />Ron Edwards' biography in "Sorcerer and Sword", actually, is a pretty fair examination of some names that probably also deserve to be on the list that a lot of people might miss. Norvell Page leaps to mind as someone that no-body ever seems to remember. 8/Viktorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867648528753994863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14724638149129932202011-06-16T09:41:01.022-04:002011-06-16T09:41:01.022-04:00@James @RobBarrett Adding Scalzi's "Old M...@James @RobBarrett Adding Scalzi's "Old Man's War" to your summer reading pile pretty much characterizes it. It's competent and smoothly written. But it suffers from fairly flat characterization and an obvious project as an homage to its predecessors without, in fact, all that much in the way of a new voice saying something (for similar things done much better, compare with Chabon's "Gentlemen of the Road" or Busiek's "Astro City": both works that are, like Scalzi's, intentionally nostalgic and genre-restoration attempts that bring something new to the table).Viktorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867648528753994863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34249474060526370302011-06-16T09:40:25.999-04:002011-06-16T09:40:25.999-04:00Also -- no Karl Edward Wagner? No Glen Cook?
To be...<i>Also -- no Karl Edward Wagner? No Glen Cook?</i><br /><br>To be fair, Cook's first "Black Company" book wasn't out in 1981, so his omission is understandable. I agree with you about Wagner, though.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51371862512389516232011-06-16T09:37:36.128-04:002011-06-16T09:37:36.128-04:00I'm just not so keen on the Earthsea series......<i>I'm just not so keen on the Earthsea series</i>...<br /><br />Well, everyone has their own tastes: for me, they're fundamental works and classics and deserve much higher position than many other names on the list. I'd also highly recommend her Western Shores series (Gifts, Voices, Powers).<br /><br />But I also strongly agree that Le Guin is in some senses an auteur: if you're not interested in the way she tells stories, or the kinds of stories she wants to tell, then all you can do is sit back and enjoy her prose and time is better spent on other excellent writers where you can connect more to the text.<br /><br />Finally, if people want to put Herbert on the list for Dune, then I'd pretty much insist they also put Wolfe on the list of the New Sun/Long Sun works. (Heck, I'd probably insist anyway.)<br /><br />Also -- no Karl Edward Wagner? No Glen Cook? ::sigh::Viktorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867648528753994863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80010737161176058122011-06-15T17:55:58.563-04:002011-06-15T17:55:58.563-04:00Forgot Ashton Clark Smith, from whom they plundere...Forgot Ashton Clark Smith, from whom they plundered much IP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4411886530648471782011-06-15T17:31:59.537-04:002011-06-15T17:31:59.537-04:00The more I read Clark Ashton Smith, the more I gri...The more I read Clark Ashton Smith, the more I grieve his absence from Appendix N. There's no reason for folks not to read CAS, considering the easily accessible on-line sources.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36303388757552640122011-06-15T16:51:19.620-04:002011-06-15T16:51:19.620-04:00Funny enough, the most obvious place I would find ...Funny enough, the most obvious place I would find Cabell a happy influence on fantasy role-playing would be on minor deities, along the lines of a certain project know roundherebouts.Theodric the Obscurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18201793290118146978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89373916083536547022011-06-15T16:45:52.368-04:002011-06-15T16:45:52.368-04:00That's a good example of a book that is clearl...<i>That's a good example of a book that is clearly indebted to Starship Troopers and Forever War without being enslaved to them and nostalgia.</i><br /><br>I'll add it to the list for my summer reading then.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1222071645895596462011-06-15T16:44:08.352-04:002011-06-15T16:44:08.352-04:00My preference would be for the creation of new wor...<i>My preference would be for the creation of new works more that build on the contemporary canon rather than re-imagining the past.</i><br /><br />In that case I would definitely recommend giving Scalzi another chance and read <i>Old Man's War</i> (to cross the streams between this bleg and the one on <i>Fuzzy Nation</i>). That's a good example of a book that is clearly indebted to <i>Starship Troopers</i> and <i>Forever War</i> without being enslaved to them and nostalgia.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43534246404974405102011-06-15T16:40:15.792-04:002011-06-15T16:40:15.792-04:00@Trey: Sure, Jurgen is Cabell's masterpiece (...@Trey: Sure, <i>Jurgen</i> is Cabell's masterpiece (or at least his best-known book, thanks to the obscenity trial), but I thought <i>James</i> might prefer the books I mentioned. Other readers of these comments may feel differently. And as regards Cabell's value as role-playing inspiration, I perhaps should have said that he has <i>comparatively</i> little to offer; if you're looking for stealable stuff, you're better off with many of the other authors in the list.John Harper Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17592827787099084705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5130842414992394672011-06-15T16:39:04.295-04:002011-06-15T16:39:04.295-04:00Re visual media: I'm afraid the horses are out...<i>Re visual media: I'm afraid the horses are out of the barn on that one.</i><br /><br>Oh, I know. I'm not expecting there to be a change on this score in my lifetime, if ever, but I don't have to like it.<br /><br /><i>The issue here is more, I suspect, that the fantasy/SF canon enshrined in Appendix N has vanished in many ways and been replaced by a different canon. I.e., not that there is less interest in reading but that what's being read strikes you as less interesting. :)</i><br /><br>Absolutely. Again, I don't expect this to change anytime sooner, if ever. My primary complaint is not that there's been a change but that the change is often used to retroactively change prior works, e.g. <i>D&D</i> or <i>Star Trek</i>. My preference would be for the creation of <i>new</i> works more that build on the contemporary canon rather than re-imagining the past.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15378142807595015872011-06-15T16:34:28.518-04:002011-06-15T16:34:28.518-04:00James,
I'm glad you mentioned that you like T...James, <br />I'm glad you mentioned that you like <i>The Left Hand of Darkness</i> much better than Earthsea; it clarifies matters again. If I remember right, you tend to like science fiction better than fantasy anyway, so your ambivalence about Le Guin is understandable (as is the ease with which you were put off by McKillip).John Harper Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17592827787099084705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76515050563939868532011-06-15T16:13:31.912-04:002011-06-15T16:13:31.912-04:00Wow. While I can sort of grok why Earthsea from T...Wow. While I can sort of grok why Earthsea from <i>Tehanu</i> on might get your goat, I'm surprised that the first three books evoked a negative response from you. I routinely teach them to great success. (I have now also taught Howard to great success and hope to add Leiber, HPL, and CAS to that list as well, either as part of a course on the Old Weird or on Weird Fiction in general.)<br /><br />Re visual media: I'm afraid the horses are out of the barn on that one. Films and TV shows were huge influences on my gaming in the early 80s, and I think we can both agree that their mindshare has only grown since then. That said, I suspect that any one willing to try a tabletop RPG is probably either a reader already or a child poised to become one. The issue here is more, I suspect, that the fantasy/SF canon enshrined in Appendix N has vanished in many ways and been replaced by a different canon. I.e., not that there is less interest in reading but that what's being read strikes you as less interesting. :)Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30973507348723740382011-06-15T15:48:06.187-04:002011-06-15T15:48:06.187-04:00James, I'd strongly recommend spending some ti...<i>James, I'd strongly recommend spending some time with the works of Ursula K. Le Guin.</i><br /><br>I should clarify that I do like <i>The Left Hand of Darkness</i>; I think it's a very good novel. I'm just not so keen on the "Earthsea" series and that has rather soured me on LeGuin more generally.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1762292991840892682011-06-15T15:47:00.298-04:002011-06-15T15:47:00.298-04:00Weren't we just recently reading about the gra...<i>Weren't we just recently reading about the grand virtues of the Star Wars MOVIES right here on this blog?</i><br /><br>We were indeed, but I'm still not certain that I'd prefer to see visual media become the primary inspiration for RPGs.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67482891966216408992011-06-15T15:07:44.943-04:002011-06-15T15:07:44.943-04:00these lists always make me feel like i need to rea...these lists always make me feel like i need to read more fantasy. which isn't necessarily a bad thing :)el Mīkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135143408412212815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83204186783938192002011-06-15T15:03:53.712-04:002011-06-15T15:03:53.712-04:00A. Merritt, who isn't commented on, wrote seve...A. Merritt, who isn't commented on, wrote several novels and stories that are excellent inspirations for adventures. Ship of Ishtar, which I didn't care for as a story, is a wonderful source for campaign ideas, particularly well suited to D&D. The Black Wheel (disappointingly completed by Hannes Bok), The Face in the Abyss, The Moon Pool, etc... His work is now fairly easy to come by (as is Clark Ashton Smith, William Hope Hodgson and others) through e-readers. <br /><br />I believe the Appendix N will see much more commentary about the hard to find writers now that they can be found, and hopefully the discovery of the old pulp heroes and writers for inspiration like The Spider Master of Men and Talbot Mundy. Authors and serials which might be light reading are heavy with adventure ideas.Jason Zavodahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13109502376214104276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46601323572778169072011-06-15T14:52:55.192-04:002011-06-15T14:52:55.192-04:00James, I'd strongly recommend spending some ti...James, I'd strongly recommend spending some time with the works of Ursula K. Le Guin.<br /><br />I plagiarized much of Tombs of Atuan for my game. Her works are certainly easy to mine for inspiration.<br /><br />I don't mean this to denigrate writers such as Howard, who's works i very much enjoy, but Le Guin is not playing the same game. Much of this list is (highly enjoyable)pulp. Le Guin's work is arguably canonical.deletedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629023989035899992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66499144034475377822011-06-15T14:34:17.369-04:002011-06-15T14:34:17.369-04:00Lloyd Alexander was a major influence on my early ...Lloyd Alexander was a major influence on my early RPGing career--it didn't hurt that I interviewed him on the phone for the sixth-grade book fair. Later in life I got to meet him in person at a Philadelphia children's book store, and he was still just as awesome.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48644495517561916512011-06-15T14:15:49.049-04:002011-06-15T14:15:49.049-04:00"If contemporary games do bother to include s..."If contemporary games do bother to include such a bibliography, too often it's overwhelmingly a filmography or, worse yet, a ludography"<br /><br />To be fair, there weren't many films or games to be inspired by in 1981 (or 1979). Today I believe there are. I would dubiously regard a modern "Appendix N" if it were exclusive to any one form of media even if that form was the literary one I prefer. Weren't we just recently reading about the grand virtues of the Star Wars MOVIES right here on this blog?cibethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16815626047653230637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28350832548165909832011-06-15T14:14:05.676-04:002011-06-15T14:14:05.676-04:00I continue to be puzzled by the omission of Lloyd ...I continue to be puzzled by the omission of Lloyd Alexander from these lists--apparently its' just me, but I always felt Alexander's use in the Chronicles of Prydain of taking existing names, places, and incidents, from Celtic (Welsh) myth, and then reworking/changing them,served as a springboard for D&D. I also felt his Westmark trilogy would have made a great campaign setting (and give that the first book of Westmark was published in 1981, it seems within the timeframe; however, for all I know, Mr. Gygax never even heard of these books)<br /><br />(and, apropos of nothing, even though it I'm sure it had no influence on D&D, every kid should read Alexander's Timecat--as should any adult who hasn't yet--it's a good time travel novel that works hard on its' period history and settings)lawwolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16664248936187738562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51785743108267036822011-06-15T12:44:20.987-04:002011-06-15T12:44:20.987-04:00I would disagree with John Brinegar on the Cabell ...I would disagree with John Brinegar on the Cabell to start with. <i>Jurgen</i> is his masterpiece.<br /><br />I would also disagree that he's got little to offer roleplaying. I'd agree he doesn't offer much in terms of setting or stuff stealable to turn into mechanics, but I think his ironic tone (similar to Lieber's) fits well with the level of seriousness presented in old school gaming.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.com