tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6620301401096838931..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: On the Oracular Power of DiceJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67443648790605519462011-08-06T01:50:50.158-04:002011-08-06T01:50:50.158-04:00Forgive me for commenting on a three-year-old post...Forgive me for commenting on a three-year-old post, but I wanted to extend your observation about the nature of the random element in play. One of the most important mid-century theorists of play, Roger Caillois, proposed a four-fold model for classifying games, (although rather than "games" as a whole, what he really was classifying were cultural logics of play... I'll explain in a bit.) The four categories were agon, or competition; alea, or chance; mimicry (imitation) and ilinx, or vertigo. Wikipedia discusses him and his system (and each term) ably enough: I won't expand more here. But the role of alea is a fascinating one. It contrasts with agon, which is about one's own abilities, skilles; the demonstration of mastery over rivals and challenges, etc. Alea is not only about that which you cannot control, it stands for (and can be seen as a sign of) the extent to which one is favored by the heavens, what one's fate is, how the gods look upon you. In a secular world, it is less popular unless it involves money (which is the divine favor that interests our society now the most, perhaps.)W Huberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00033809401406505131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80366769032953229762011-06-07T18:52:28.254-04:002011-06-07T18:52:28.254-04:00Thank you very much for this post. I've never...Thank you very much for this post. I've never seen it before, but it encapsulates the way I try to run my games. I feel disappointed when a session isn't as "fun" as I'd have liked it to be, but I guess there's always the next session. Some of the random moments are the most memorable and so when those bits of magic happen, it makes the whole endeavor worthwhile.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158916950442942918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66383466363979569432009-05-07T09:19:00.000-04:002009-05-07T09:19:00.000-04:00James, I was probably not the source of your story...James, I was probably not the source of your story.<br /><br />Dave Arneson did tell me that he found a set of polyhedral dice on his trip to England, but that was before I met him and I never saw that set of dice. We used six sided dice in the early Blackmoor days. We were even using d6's when we started play testing the new D&D rules in mid 1973.<br /><br />My understanding is that Dave Wesley is the person who found the polyhedral dice in an educational supply catalog and showed them to Gary Gygax, who liked them and adopted them for D&D. So, it is quite possible that Dave Wesley was the first modern gamer to use them, but I don't know that for sure. I did not personally see polyhedral dice until I saw a boxed set of D&D rules in 1974.Greg Svensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11775192430078470858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48621762332242797642008-04-28T22:40:00.000-04:002008-04-28T22:40:00.000-04:00Lots of things are claimed as inventions of Dave W...Lots of things are claimed as inventions of Dave Wesley, so I tend to be skeptical. Of course, I know of a story told by one of Dave Arneson's players (Greg Svenson perhaps?), who claims that Dave found polyhedral dice in England and brought some back to show the Blackmoor crew. They thought they were cool and decided to use them.<BR/><BR/>I honestly have no clue what the truth of the matter is. My guess is that, like roleplaying generally, there were lots of ideas swirling around in wargaming circles and lots of people swapped and shared ideas without attribution. Plus, there was lots of independent invention going on. My feeling is that many of the things Dave Wesley claims as his own inventions were things he genuinely invented but that had minimal impact outside his immediate circle (Braunsteins being one of the few exceptions).James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57362676755958746342008-04-28T20:58:00.000-04:002008-04-28T20:58:00.000-04:00BTW, Dave Wesely has claimed to be the first to us...BTW, Dave Wesely <A HREF="http://www.acaeum.com/forum/about3888.html" REL="nofollow">has claimed</A> to be the first to use polyhedral dice.<BR/><BR/>At least, in modern times. There was that ancient Roman d20 up for auction.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46310587912502298192008-04-28T18:03:00.000-04:002008-04-28T18:03:00.000-04:00As I recall, TSR initially used an educational sup...As I recall, TSR initially used an educational supplier somewhere in the Midwest for the original polyhedrals, which -- and this may simply be legend -- were never intended to be used a dice but were instead simply small models of regular geometric solids, thereby explaining their poor quality as randomizers. Eventually, though, demand outstripped the ability of the educational supplier to provide them and so TSR eventually had to make their own dice for sale.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6487900913916359132008-04-28T16:45:00.000-04:002008-04-28T16:45:00.000-04:00Yeah, in the end, probabilities are probabilities....Yeah, in the end, probabilities are probabilities. OD&D could just have easily said "roll X six-sided dice and get under the THACo" a la GURPS, or some other mechanic (it's not like there aren't countless RPG systems that just use D6s in all sorts of different ways).<BR/><BR/>I don't know that much about the history of the polyhedral dice - did TSR have them specially made by a plastics company back in the day?Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16277172936030480052008-04-28T15:40:00.000-04:002008-04-28T15:40:00.000-04:00Re: funYou're right: rolling dice is fun and I'm p...Re: fun<BR/><BR/>You're right: rolling dice <I>is</I> fun and I'm pretty sure that the adoption of polyhedrals for OD&D was done because they were simply exotic and fun to roll compared to boring old D6s.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66717692670777111812008-04-28T13:31:00.000-04:002008-04-28T13:31:00.000-04:00On top of all the high-brow reasons why dice are i...On top of all the high-brow reasons why dice are important to the game, I also look at the more visceral aspect of it - rolling dice is fun. Tossing that big d20 or a pile of 6's or 10's gives you that Vegas/gambling thrill, that fame and fortune or poverty and ruin all lie on THIS toss of the bones. Or THAT one, or ANOTHER...<BR/><BR/>It's one thing that I don't care for in even well-done systems, when the die-rolling is limited to perhaps a single d10 or d6 or whatever. I've watched newbie players time and time again, and everyone gets a thrill out of rolling the dice. In fact, players, from what I have seen, would rather roll the dice and even have a hefty chance of failure rather than have the ability to just do something automatically and not toss dice. Everyone leans over and stares at the results wide-eyed and we've got Christmas all over again.<BR/><BR/>As to their use as a GMing tool, Stephen Marsh, writer of the Random Thought Table over at SJG's Pyramid magazine, once wrote an article about RPG mechanics where he stated one of the things he likes in certain RPGs is the ability to use the "Roll the Dice and See How Pretty They Look" method of conflict resolution. Meaning, you should be able to roll the main "success or failure" dice and just be able to look and say "yeah, that's a win" or "woah, you're screwed" 95% of the time without having to roll, ponder, consult charts, roll more dice etc.. I know this idea isn't for everyone, but I tend to agree - sometimes I just like to say "roll me some dice" and see what turns up in order to resolve a conflict. <BR/><BR/>In the end, Dice Just Kick Butt.Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85800021449728792822008-04-26T12:47:00.000-04:002008-04-26T12:47:00.000-04:00Re: Gygax and diceI think you're almost certainly ...Re: Gygax and dice<BR/><BR/>I think you're almost certainly right that Gary viewed them as <I>aids</I> to play rather than as integral to them, but then he had the benefit of being a far better referee than I ever could be. I'm regularly struck with moments of indecision and uncertainty and so, somewhere along the line, I've just internalized the notion that most things should be determined randomly, unless I have good reason to do otherwise. I expect I'm not alone in this regard and most old school referees I know are much the same.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91675982941016070822008-04-25T10:47:00.000-04:002008-04-25T10:47:00.000-04:00Great post! I was floored by the phrase "the oracu...Great post! I was floored by the phrase "the oracular power of dice" in a previous post. This connection between ancient divination and present-day fantasy games really appeals to me.<BR/><BR/>(Is the ancient priest who used divination devices to "determine the will of the gods" and point the blame for an unpleasant answer away from himself all that different from the DM who prefers to give a random table the chance to inflict unpleasant results on the PCs rather than doing it by fiat? (^_^) And, yes, unpleasant results are as--if not more--important than the pleasant results to a fun game.)<BR/><BR/>I'm tempted to argue, however, that for Gygax, such tables were tools to be called upon when the DM blanked or when whimsy struck. Not integral parts of the game, <I>per se</I>. When I asked him about using the reaction chart, I believe he said he rarely--if ever--did. Although, I don't think that invalidates your observations about the style of play that you're talking about here. So, let's leave that aside.<BR/><BR/>Even when I've made PCs for 3e, sometimes I rolled randomly for almost everything. Race, class, etc. Others in the group were inspired to try it too. Always came out interesting.<BR/><BR/>"I remember well randomly rolled characters who, frankly, sucked and yet proved to be lots of fun to play."<BR/><BR/>A lot of gamers seem to have no concept of relativity. It doesn't really matter what the numbers are. Whether you roll ability scores with 3d6, 2d6+6, or 1d6+12 doesn't significantly change the play of the game. It just shifts all the numbers up.<BR/><BR/>Unless you're using rules that over-reward high scores, but even then, if everyone has an 18 then an 18 is no longer special. You may just have to descend to a deeper dungeon level a little sooner to keep your interest up. At worse, you've just made things more cartoonish but not necessarily more satisfying.<BR/><BR/>Not to mention that the <I>player</I> matters much more than the <I>scores</I>. Haven't we all seen the character with low ability scores and a level or three behind outshine the rest of the party because the player made smart, interesting, or insightful choices.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34409110928948329152008-04-25T09:56:00.000-04:002008-04-25T09:56:00.000-04:00I hate to psychologize everything, because it's us...I hate to psychologize everything, because it's usually a recipe for disaster, but I do think there's something ... unhealthy about the trend toward giving the player control over every detail of his character's creation and actions in-game. At the very least, I think it's unnecessarily limiting in terms of gaming possibilities. <BR/><BR/>I remember well randomly rolled characters who, frankly, sucked and yet proved to be lots of fun to play. Heck, Xylarthen, the first sample character in <I>D&D</I> history, is relentlessly mediocre and in fact ill-suited to being a magic-user and yet there he is in Volume 1 of OD&D. The sample EPT character is almost as underwhelming. I think that says something about gaming and how it has evolved over the years. I'm not quite sure what, but I don't think it's a good thing whatever it is.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63773587093377543052008-04-25T00:14:00.000-04:002008-04-25T00:14:00.000-04:00There's a great line in Encounter Critical, "It is...There's a great line in Encounter Critical, "It is unrealistic to require characters to qualify for a character class; many people are very bad at what they do."<BR/><BR/>That inspired me to roll dice for character class as well as stats. In a game like EC having a weakling Warrior or maladapted Pioneer just fits the spirit of things!Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615194097431562045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57140286112053180662008-04-24T18:45:00.000-04:002008-04-24T18:45:00.000-04:00I liked the randomness, because it became a tool t...I liked the randomness, because it became a tool to force inventiveness, both for the players and the referee.<BR/><BR/>The dice also reinforced the role of the DM as referee - it was the dice that was determining that those last 3 orcs would fight to the death, the dice that decided that the King was in a bad mood, the dice that decided your ultimate fate.<BR/><BR/>It was that element that enabled Save or Die challenges, things like Grimtooth's Traps or most of the modules of the day.<BR/><BR/>The dice are a powerful, powerful tool in the arsenal and I lament their loss in many newer games.Jason Langloishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02507550527211520786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67123570090123567932008-04-24T13:19:00.000-04:002008-04-24T13:19:00.000-04:00The "mini-game" aspect of random rolling is import...The "mini-game" aspect of random rolling is important, I think. I enjoy creating dungeons through the use of tables and I always liked generating planets and characters for <I>Traveller</I>. I enjoy being surprised by the results I get. Sometimes they make little sense and are unusable but sometimes they make little sense, so I have to think about the results and find a way to justify them, which results in even better dungeons than if I'd just planned it all out from the beginning.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21814463568360713272008-04-24T11:56:00.000-04:002008-04-24T11:56:00.000-04:00I love this post. It encapsulates a lot of what I ...I love this post. It encapsulates a lot of what I am now looking for in my transition into OD&D. Let's face it, the act of rolling dice is FUN. I strive to allow the players to roll them as often as possible, that's why I don't enjoy games in which the referee rolls ALL of the dice.<BR/><BR/>Two aspects of old school gaming that I have come to embrace in my transition are Save or Die Poisons, and random Monster and Treasure Distribution within my dungeons. <BR/><BR/>Save or Die is harsh, in a favorable, old school way. Let the dice fall where they may.<BR/><BR/>Random dungeon stocking makes the creation and filling of dungeons a mini-game for me, and I enjoy it much more than I ever imagined I would.<BR/><BR/>~ShamSham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.com