tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6703130674359411349..comments2024-03-19T07:56:00.031-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: DCC RPG and Character Death in Old School GamingJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25553178002978308862011-06-15T01:22:26.107-04:002011-06-15T01:22:26.107-04:00@Ravenheart87:
"The way of the four hobbit t...@Ravenheart87:<br /><br />"The way of the four hobbit to Bree is a good example for level 0 adventure"<br /><br />That is an excellent observation! Nice.Legionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14743073987491198533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50214392116214982212011-06-03T20:42:12.704-04:002011-06-03T20:42:12.704-04:00My favorite thing about this method is that it is ...My favorite thing about this method is that it is a way to get my group to accept 3d6 in order as a character generation method. Since they will be rolling up 4 guys, they get 4 sets of scores, and I fully expect them to be taking most of the risks with their guys that have the crappier scores, hoping to have their favorite character survive to level 1.<br /><br />I have suggested 3d6 in order in the past, and they balked, but this they are on board with.<br /><br />It's like you are generating characters in the tradition of the LBBs, but the players still have a semblance of choice when it comes to what character they are going to end up with. It's a great compromise between old school and modern character generation - at least that's how I see it.Jeremy Deramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166744272459044563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75043707333998011392011-05-25T19:04:55.917-04:002011-05-25T19:04:55.917-04:00If there are 20 characters on an adventure togethe...If there are 20 characters on an adventure together I hope there's rules for fighting formations. Also imagining 20 people in whatever room you're in right now would most likely be a very crowded space. Certainly many classic D&D modules wouldn't work for groups of that size.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75171204722110806722011-05-25T16:40:15.308-04:002011-05-25T16:40:15.308-04:00blackstone of course its a game (isn't it ;) ...blackstone of course its a game (isn't it ;) ?). I know that. However I don't like all the games out there and given a limited amount of time to play I choose to play ones I know I'll like rather than ones that sound like I might not like them.5stonegameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10694550968360550229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83274354043305553462011-05-25T03:34:20.428-04:002011-05-25T03:34:20.428-04:00Yeah you get stories, plots, and blah blah blah......<i>Yeah you get stories, plots, and blah blah blah...but when it comes down to it, it's killings monsters and taking their stuff.<br /></i><br /><br />Nah, that's just one way to play. It *is* a game, though.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12508594597349248576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44846350811214001892011-05-25T03:02:16.619-04:002011-05-25T03:02:16.619-04:00We typically start PCs at 3rd level where they are...We typically start PCs at 3rd level where they are already competent, well-rounded individuals but not yet powerful. One of the reasons we are not doing the first level thing so much is that we do not have the time anymore for that stage now that we mostly play on a tri-weekly basis. If I had a weekly or more regular game going, I might reconsider. (Of course, there are other reasons - part of that is like Rudd suggested, the kind of inspiring material we base our campaigns on imply competent protagonists, even if they are socially flea-bitten nobodies.)<br /><br />Of course, playing disposable first-level PCs has a lot going for it: you can enjoy the carnage, and feel that warm glow when you get to 3rd level (which, again, is where characters start to stay alive more). Ironically, the campaign that was closest to that ideal was our main 3.0 one.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20926438729720308462011-05-24T21:46:45.549-04:002011-05-24T21:46:45.549-04:00I think the people who "don't get it"...I think the people who "don't get it" are the same ones who think RPGs are "art" or some "higher form of entertainment"<br /><br />It's a f*cking game, people!<br /><br />Yeah you get stories, plots, and blah blah blah...but when it comes down to it, it's killings monsters and taking their stuff.<br /><br />Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves and making themselves sound more impressive.<br /><br />Get over it and just have fun!blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54574667513445872082011-05-24T16:51:49.457-04:002011-05-24T16:51:49.457-04:00Well, Conan was there when Venarium fell. He was a...Well, Conan was there when Venarium fell. He was around fifteen. Maybe this is the battle, where he became a level 1 warrior? :)Tamás Illéshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415717108941674663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60864075794014990062011-05-24T15:52:24.169-04:002011-05-24T15:52:24.169-04:00@Rudd - I think in my own imagination that most S&...@Rudd - I think in my own imagination that most S&S stories aren't telling us of the adventures the hero had when he was 14 or 15 or 16 yrs old. In other words, we don't get any stories about Conan (just as an example) when he was level 0. We get stories starting when he was already maybe level 4 or so (just for the sake of argument). Who knows how many fellow adventurers died alongside Conan early on in his adventuring "career." <br /><br />And even allowing for that fact, there are still lots of characters in the Conan tales who he teams up with at various times and who end up dead...Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00323022731513484213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16732981342189395362011-05-24T15:22:36.413-04:002011-05-24T15:22:36.413-04:00Appendix N has one important story, where a bunch ...Appendix N has one important story, where a bunch of commoners become level 1 adventurers: The Fellowship of the Ring. The way of the four hobbit to Bree is a good example for level 0 adventure, although there's only four of them and all survives. :)Tamás Illéshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415717108941674663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90899458875676426262011-05-24T15:08:39.850-04:002011-05-24T15:08:39.850-04:00I have no problem with character death and am a fa...I have no problem with character death and am a fan of fast character generation but I'm a little confused. <br /><br />DCC claims to be inspired by Appendix N. But where is the basis in S&S literature for a bunch of farmers going on an adventure and getting randomly slaughtered. S&S is populated with competent protagonist who generally act individually or at most as a pair.Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12174843939252395797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33499277178431679132011-05-24T14:28:56.450-04:002011-05-24T14:28:56.450-04:00Again, no one holds a gun to anyone's head, sa...Again, no one holds a gun to anyone's head, saying "you must start with two-three level 0 characters". Level is just a darwinist hellride, where hopefully one of your characters survives, and becomes your one first level character. The others retire, or may become henchmen. :)Tamás Illéshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415717108941674663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80984287266051407452011-05-24T11:55:36.182-04:002011-05-24T11:55:36.182-04:00"5stonegames said...
DCC is starting to sound..."5stonegames said...<br />DCC is starting to sound rather dreadful to me and I can't imagine anyone other than a few real old Grogs being willing to entertain that sort of "wargaming" adventure at least outside of a store demo where it could be a boon. <br /><br />The big hmm, to me seems to be the complexity of the system, I can't imagine managing spells and other complex rules galore with a large group of newbies. "<br /><br />I understand your concern, until I playtested DCC, I'd never run more than 1 character. The complexity isn't an issue because they are Zero Level Characters. They don't have classes yet, they're farmers, squires, village idiots, smiths, etc. And rolling these characters up, literally takes about 5 minutes per PLAYER, not character. We started with 15 characters & at the end we had about 7. Moving to 1st level we all chose to focus then on 1 PC. The cool part is are characters went through the process of becoming more than peasants together. We didn't meet in an inn, we went into that mind-bending temple & survived. We didn't win, we survived. It was some of the best gaming I've had in the last 5 years.<br /><br />And to reiterate, this isn't D&D. This inspired by Appendix N, but its not a retroclone or a what if project. Its the D20 engine attached to the works of Appendix N.Cross Planeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00258583245202567276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52182740004859878832011-05-24T11:40:40.324-04:002011-05-24T11:40:40.324-04:00That said, I have to wonder about an adventure tha...<i>That said, I have to wonder about an adventure that recommends that a player should have more characters than you get clones in Paranoia.</i><br /><br>That's not quite accurate. <i>Paranoia</i> gives each player six clones of his PC, whereas DCC RPG only recommends 2-3 0-level characters per player.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27655134119763411002011-05-24T11:36:16.010-04:002011-05-24T11:36:16.010-04:00My curiosity was piqued when they announced the DC...My curiosity was piqued when they announced the DCC RPG, but posts like this have been going a long way in showing how I'm not the target audience for this game.<br /><br />That said, I have to wonder about an adventure that recommends that a player should have more characters than you get clones in Paranoia.Reverend Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11957368852789992095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20550055420033596762011-05-24T09:53:17.832-04:002011-05-24T09:53:17.832-04:00Being a Traveller Man, I completely related to thi...Being a Traveller Man, I completely related to this topic. One of the things, that I came to dislike about AD&D (game of my youth) was the levels - they added a certain sense of accomplishment but nothing more.<br /><br />I wonder, however, if AD&D or Old School went the way of Runequest would we still have the hobby today. For one of the things that did propel the hobby was video games aping D&D and computers are very good bean counters therefore made the conversion easier to make sophisticated shoot'em up games which in turn channeled a sort of Shoot & Loot mentality in RPGs rather than aspiring to higher things.<br /><br />Could the model of RPGs (including those we call Old School) be responsible for some of the things we detest (my words only) about the latest crop (ok, the d20 phase is gone but has left its indelible mark on the way we game...and don't even get me started on 4e) of RPGs?<br /><br />I think the secret would be to rescue RPGs from the bean counters and go back to a more pure form of RPG - or am I just a product too much of a later stage of RPGs and not really Old School at all?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41649944490400156822011-05-24T02:02:00.674-04:002011-05-24T02:02:00.674-04:00Alas, nobody's still reading at comment 50, ri...Alas, nobody's still reading at comment 50, right? <br /><br />This sounds phenomenal: a really clear communication that you're playing a different sort of game. I also think this would be perfect for adventure #1 in a CoC campaign, to get over the "how do the PCs know each other and why do they care?" problem. What if you played, say, <a href="http://www.yog-sothoth.com/content/866-The-Lazy-Mans-Guide-to-Constructing-a-Call-of-Cthulhu-Adventure" rel="nofollow">Sandy Petersen's ski lodge example scenario</a> using this method: your characters don't know anything until people start dying, out of the big pool of characters at the start. At the end, each player selects one primary character out of the survivors. The rest are a pool of allies they can draw on as needed.<br /><br /><em>I don't like the idea of more than one character/that's not roleplaying</em><br /><br />It's certainly different from improv, but yes, it's roleplaying. DMs do it all the time. I've played groups before - up to 13 kobolds, which lets you do small unit tactics... I find it helps to pick one primary and maybe a lieutenant, and then give the rest one distinctive characteristic each, seven dwarfs style. And very often the minor characters will grow the most memorable reputations through play. Most of all, though, <em>Ars Magica</em> troupe play always works like this: each player typically gets a wizard, a companion and a share in the henchmen pool (grogs). It's always worked fine when I've seen it.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41122031884355192092011-05-24T01:58:37.913-04:002011-05-24T01:58:37.913-04:00Don't forget that this is a level 0 (!) advent...Don't forget that this is a level 0 (!) adventure. It's there to test, which one of your two-three characters is good enough to become a level 1 PC, which one is worth keeping.<br />If you don't like it, as written above, run it with 7-8 level 1 characters. If you don't like the deadliness, start your party at level 3. The free playtest rules will cover level 0-5. The final game will go up to 10.Tamás Illéshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415717108941674663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1987237237551729852011-05-23T23:49:54.175-04:002011-05-23T23:49:54.175-04:00One thing to consider is that simpler, quicker cha...One thing to consider is that simpler, quicker characters (ala OD&D-style) with fewer options and fiddly bits are much easier to create and play. You do not end up suffering the paralysis of choice problem, either before or during play, the way many players do with more modern games (and even a few of the older ones). In this sense, it isn't so much a problem managing a couple or three different characters, because each one only has a few mechanical options at any given moment.<br /><br />I would hate to try to play more than one character in D&D 3.x. I get paralyzed just trying to pick a race/class pairing for a level 7 character.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00435243803003028117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47027997624670255362011-05-23T22:03:50.634-04:002011-05-23T22:03:50.634-04:00I have to admit, as a closet Rutger Hauer fan, I&#...I have to admit, as a closet Rutger Hauer fan, I've never seen this. It's going on my Netflix queue.<br /><br />As a return favor, here's the scene I was thinking of: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y70vcs3oV14" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y70vcs3oV14</a>Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31747144791834446102011-05-23T21:57:14.080-04:002011-05-23T21:57:14.080-04:00the 1992 movie
I was thinking of this part of the ...<i>the 1992 movie</i><br /><br>I was thinking of this part of the film:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvMWD-_NfoJames Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10415606363580041692011-05-23T21:54:45.908-04:002011-05-23T21:54:45.908-04:00Eeek. I really don't like the idea of multipl...Eeek. I really don't like the idea of multiple characters for a player. I think it detracts from the character's death if they are simply considered fungible goods. Sure, low level character's die, especially if they bite off more than they can chew, but even a low-level character's death should <i>mean</i> something, even if it is a silly stupid avoidable death.<br /><br />I think the problem with this sort of module is it is not well matched to low-level characters if it requires replacing quality with quantity. But that's what's going to have to be necessary if you start chaining encounters together. Low level stuff really needs separate encounters that the players can be free to engage or avoid, according to what they feel are their capabilities. Sandbox campaigns work really well in this regard.<br /><br />Again, it's all a matter of resource allocation. The dungeon doesn't have to be explored in a day.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29740181791613224242011-05-23T21:52:25.213-04:002011-05-23T21:52:25.213-04:00@James:
-- You're gonna need guns. Lots of gu...@James:<br /><br /><i>-- You're gonna need guns. Lots of guns.<br />A fan of Split Second, are you? </i><br /><br />Which one? The 1953 movie, the 1992 movie or the TV show? :)<br /><br />The way I use it is from <i>The Matrix</i>, the scene where Neo and Trinity are discussing how to rescue Morpheus from the Agents.<br /><br />I bet JG will be pleased to see this discussion. I have a feeling the sentiment that many of us have from the initial test games is helping them to know how their game is going to generally be received.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59261225613031766072011-05-23T21:13:16.496-04:002011-05-23T21:13:16.496-04:00"...I've found that, along with old schoo...<i>"...I've found that, along with old school D&D, CoC is the game that often fails to resonate with a lot of people and for a similar reason: played as written, beginning PCs tend to die with alarming regularity -- and that's part of the fun."</i><br /><br />Exactly. I've seen it happen when I or friends explain CoC to people who have never played: either their eyes light up with excitement, or they look puzzled and say "but don't your characters wind up going crazy or dying a lot?"<br /><br />To which we reply with a smile, "Yes! Doesn't that sound great?" :)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58888447742882517512011-05-23T21:09:56.825-04:002011-05-23T21:09:56.825-04:00YMMV of course but I am certainly not the target m...<i>YMMV of course but I am certainly not the target market for that sort of thing.</i><br /><br>And that's fair enough. One of the things I really like about DCC RPG is that it clearly knows what it's about and makes no attempt to be all things to all gamers. Goodman is aiming for a very specific style of play and has crafted a game that'll deliver it in spades. I think that's terrific.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com