tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6805677597299732822..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: ReboundJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53891591905544698632012-07-20T11:52:40.208-04:002012-07-20T11:52:40.208-04:00I think there are some valid reasons aside from se...I think there are some valid reasons aside from sentimentality to want to play the "official" D&D edition. Generally speaking, WotC has some one the best known designers and writers on their staff. They have the backing to produce high quality material to support D&D. One can expect, if they like the new edition, to have campaign settings, adventures, splatbooks, etc. Of course, I am playing Castles and Crusades. 3e and 4e have pretty much shown me the version of the game I like is no longer a concern. I can always hack support material into my game if it is good!Harlocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69377896903545607902012-02-11T08:37:17.229-05:002012-02-11T08:37:17.229-05:00thanks from me too cuzthanks from me too cuzadronauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653788102185128308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-940670570566687602012-02-11T08:03:31.382-05:002012-02-11T08:03:31.382-05:00LOL! I kind of agree, I figured out OSR is Old Sch...LOL! I kind of agree, I figured out OSR is Old School Renaissance but a fair bit of other stuff is gobbledy-gook o this 25 year gamer :)adronauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653788102185128308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78573762188891276272012-01-27T16:25:01.303-05:002012-01-27T16:25:01.303-05:00I take each of these things on their merits. I bou...I take each of these things on their merits. I bought a tidy little white paperback version of the D&D4 rules. Why they didn't publish more stuff like that instead of $40 books. I'd think the margin would be better selling more slightly cheaper books and getting 'the word out' and into the hands of 'the kids' (and us uh...veterans ;) ). I'll look at D&D 5 but I'm not spending collosal amounts of money on hardback books for each edition. Who can afford that stuff?lazycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08391072231837230851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89026867563379540662012-01-16T13:38:35.904-05:002012-01-16T13:38:35.904-05:00James, I think you're wildly wrong here. The p...James, I think you're wildly wrong here. The people excited about D&D 5 (like me!) care the LEAST about the D&D brand as such. D&D 5 has obvious benefits. The chance to play the most popular RPG in the world. The chance to play, instead of always DMing; the chance to be asked to join a group, instead of always forming our own groups. The chance to play with the most new players! The potential benefits outweigh our fear that WOTC will disrespect the D&D brand. The people who are (already!) indifferent or antagonistic towards the thought of D&D 5 care much more about the brand, because they're turtling to protect themselves from potential disappointment.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05078173255668986590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81945427685673322302012-01-14T20:11:04.059-05:002012-01-14T20:11:04.059-05:00Thank you Mr. Hickok!Thank you Mr. Hickok!Norwegian Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07589654915075623652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6033960633163566832012-01-14T12:56:56.568-05:002012-01-14T12:56:56.568-05:00The new edition will be D&D, and Sword and Wiz...The new edition will be D&D, and Sword and Wizardry Whitebox is D&D. My home version of the game is D&D. I'm inerested in every versions of this game._andrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08488071199643926290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24297618031274110602012-01-14T02:55:52.494-05:002012-01-14T02:55:52.494-05:00I think the best think Hasbro can do is go with th...I think the best think Hasbro can do is go with their strengths and stop marketing D&D as a role-playing game. By that, I mean their primary marketing should be towards pushing the D&D boardgames through their standard distribution channels (where they still have considerable muscle). They then market the D&D rules as content creation tools for the boardgames.<br /><br />Thus the boardgames serve as the introductory D&D platform for kids and beginners, as well as introducing the rule concepts. The role-playing and creativity are added afterwards, so that once kids tire of the canned games they will do what comes naturally and start creating their own content.<br /><br />[Boardgames are also easily virtualised for increasing the market base.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72460951308972920082012-01-14T02:39:56.924-05:002012-01-14T02:39:56.924-05:00By open source I mean that they must provide acces...By open source I mean that they must provide access to the necessary API for those user-creators out there to add their own content to the established framework, including the ability to modify the existing framework. Ideally this should be done by providing a toolset that allows the user to create these modules and add it to their version of D&D. Ideally that toolset should be free (rather than, say the SDK license for iOS) in order to encourage content creation. And ideally the API at the very least should be open for people that want to delve that far, simply for the fact that it is impossible to predict all the possibilities inherent in creating arbitrary content, but I agree, it is not a necessity. It doesn't need to be actual open-source.<br /><br />The actual business model hews much closer to that of DAZ, who provides their modelling software for free and make <i>more</i> than their money back by acting as a marketplace for models from the huge number of modellers out there (and at much less of a cut than say Apple, Android, or most ePub publishers in order to make alternative distribution channels not worth bothering about).<br /><br />But I agree that I doubt WOTC is actually agile enough to develop this methodology, as it pretty much outside their (and Hasbro's) management experience. And it is management that is going to determine how the new game is going to be marketed and produced.<br /><br />But I agree that computer support is more likely to be in the form of an annual subscription to DDI (or it's next generation). However if it becomes a requirement then I suspect it will be the final nail in the coffin of WOTC D&D.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19446141268003774082012-01-14T01:47:06.074-05:002012-01-14T01:47:06.074-05:00I'd just like to post a link out there for Nor...I'd just like to post a link out there for Norwegian Blue and anyone else that is wondering about the various versions of retro clones in the OSR.<br /><br />A Guide to Retro Clones<br />http://totheblogmobile.com/2009/05/08/a-guide-to-retro-clone-roleplaying-games/Wild Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04631431134495075537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36797720408927115742012-01-13T21:22:27.013-05:002012-01-13T21:22:27.013-05:00I'm a contrarian in that I think, getting rid ...I'm a contrarian in that I think, getting rid of the OGL was not what hurt 4E. While I think it alienated some people (I'd argued the biggest group it alienated were folks making money selling Third-Party OGL stuff).<br /><br />The thing that killed 4E was that it was effectively the third edition change of the rules WotC made in 8 years. This after not having made any substantial changes to them in over a decade before 3.0. A third edition in 8 years, especially one that made some very questionable and controversial design decisions that gave it a pretty different feel from previous editions of the game was just a bridge too far for many.<br /><br />Also, DDI, for whatever short term money it made WotC, alienated some fans, particularly since it effectively killed Dungeon and Dragon for all but the most hardcore of audiences.<br /><br />WotC has been there own worst enemies in a lot of other places as well. Here's a list of some other business missteps WotC has done over the past five years:<br /><br />Prematurely ending support for d20 Modern. No, it didn't sell as well as D&D (then again, what does, other than Pathfinder). But, it was a good game system in a genre that had more room for growth than Sword and Board fantasy (did we really need 5 Monster Manuals for 3.5?). <br /><br />Killing the Star Wars license. Yep, it was probably expensive. Still, it made money for WotC, and unlike 4E, the last edition of d20 Star Wars was a good system that could have done more for WotC if they had given it a little more love.<br /><br />Pulling the PDFs from retailers. I get it. Piracy of stuff is bad for business. I notice that 4E books still get scanned into OCR editions and posted on Torrent sites though, so pulling the PDFs didn't do anything but lose WotC business, and cut it off from what is the biggest growing segment of the hobby, electronic distribution.<br /><br />Guess what, WotC. A lot of us, more every day, own eReaders, tablets, and notebooks that go to games with us. Since March 2011, Amazon sells more eBooks than print books. These two things are not coincidences.<br /><br />For every print product I buy these days, I buy about 6-8 PDF products from RPG Now. In fact, RPG Now gets about 60-70% of my gaming dollars these days. I'm running four games at a con next month, and the only things I plan on bringing are my Ipad, a charger for it, paper, pencils, notecards, and dice. All my gaming books for the systems I'm running are in legal PDFs on my iPad, my hand-written game notes have been saves as PDFs, all because frankly, a text searchable PDF is easier to look up things in on the fly than any print book. <br /><br />I'm mildly intrigued to see what Monte Cook can do with 5E. He's the only reason I think 5E has a puncher's chance of reclaiming some momentum from Pathfinder. <br /><br />I'd also suggest that WotC rethink electronic distribution, and that they look for a happier medium between the restrictive GSL of 4E, and the wild west days of the OGL. Like it or not, there are very few games out there with totally closed rules systems these days (practically every new game of note in the last few years has released their core mechanics under very OGL like terms, or at least at a reduced price compared to whatever setting or settings they're tied to). Also, eBook publishing is big, getting bigger, and will likely kill bricks and mortar bookstores (and possibly game stores) over the course of the next decade.Desert Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14837747666646894084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22704550947766948442012-01-13T01:40:36.552-05:002012-01-13T01:40:36.552-05:00You're welcome. :DYou're welcome. :DSimonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-763399039177563432012-01-12T22:59:56.717-05:002012-01-12T22:59:56.717-05:00Sincere thanks to Brendan, Wally and S'mon for...Sincere thanks to Brendan, Wally and S'mon for their comments (and to everyone else for that matter).Norwegian Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07589654915075623652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80730296038731070532012-01-12T19:45:53.090-05:002012-01-12T19:45:53.090-05:00The real reason for 5E?
Hasbro wants brony money ...The real reason for 5E?<br /><br />Hasbro wants brony money from all those My Little D&D campaigns they're running.<br /><br />I have seen the future, and it's cutely equine.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1953131586684603242012-01-12T17:50:00.677-05:002012-01-12T17:50:00.677-05:00the fact that several thousand RPGers hate 4e simi...<i>the fact that several thousand RPGers hate 4e similarly doesn't make it anything other than [whatever it is].</i><br /><br />You'll notice that I never said 4e was a bad game, sir. Any more than I said TNE was a bad game. I said it was a screw-up from a business perspective. Which it pretty clearly was. I said it was a business screw-up not because of Hasbro, but because the designers made the game they wanted to make, as opposed to a game to meet the market demand for D&D. Your comments actually agree with this.<br /><br />You say that 4e was "within older editions'…stylistic envelope." I'll agree with that. The trouble was fundamentally that the designers didn't recognize that being within the envelope isn't good enough; the core game has to be near the <i>center</i> of the envelope to be accepted as a successor by the market.<br /><br />You say, "The side-stories about 'the brand'…are side stories." I emphatically disagree; the story of D&D the brand is exactly why there's a 5th edition coming out so soon, and that a fifth edition is coming out is a major story, not a side story.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138730966226244399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40499014269151212932012-01-12T11:07:46.261-05:002012-01-12T11:07:46.261-05:00Totally agreed on all accounts. :)Totally agreed on all accounts. :)Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1029902289413392812012-01-12T10:15:55.949-05:002012-01-12T10:15:55.949-05:00I agree with your comments James. I have tried the...<em>I agree with your comments James. I have tried the various retro-clones, but for some weird reason they don't feel like my beloved Mentzer D&D.</em><br /><br />Perhaps the <em>main</em> reason is nothing more(!!) than the passage of time, and the memory of love itself? Nothing is quite like your first love, of course; that's where your categories come from. First love <em>makes</em> myths. That's why it sucks so much, and why we cling to it: no context, no comparison. The last chance to experience the thing totally on its own terms.<br /><br />Playing D&D today is a sequel. We know about sequels.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82757447856552155082012-01-12T10:07:17.361-05:002012-01-12T10:07:17.361-05:00So I guess I'm kinda hoping WotC will use this...<em>So I guess I'm kinda hoping WotC will use this 5e opportunity to re-introduce OAD&D to a new generation of kids. Or is that wishful thinking?</em><br /><br />I wonder: when you take away the flavour of the rules presentation -- the very violent, flamboyantly dumb 4e material, and the goofier, archaic, more idiosyncratic 0e/1e presentation -- is 1e actually easier for a child to learn? Not a non-D&D RPGer but an 11-year-old. At this point, would MMORPG/videogame skills translate more readily to 1e expertise, or to 4e skill? I'm guessing the latter, though I think I'd rather my son cultivate the former (for a variety of reasons).<br /><br />Still, it's nice to think that 'let's play this familiar game in this <em>crazy old-world way</em>' will appeal to daughters and sons. But maybe that kind of outreach can't happen easily in a gamer community where younger players are less likely to learn from older siblings and parents?<br /><br />Either way, if Hasbro/WotC has any sense at all, they'll find a way to monetize the giant library of old TSR stuff. They're idiots for letting all those old designs molder.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74343949415910261902012-01-12T09:59:38.036-05:002012-01-12T09:59:38.036-05:00Where 4e fell completely flat for me was in its ab...<em>Where 4e fell completely flat for me was in its ability to be easily hacked. Say you want to swap out one mechanic for another, or remove a particular mechanic completely. This is difficult with 4e, but extremely simple with 0e its retro clones.</em><br /><br />No, no -- it's really really easy with 4e, but there's the anxiety-inducing problem that <em>4e is so much about balance</em>, which doesn't matter to 0e etc., and the average houserule has nothing whatsoever to do with balance. 4e's various rule systems are pretty tightly integrated, compared to older editions, but various 4e releases and modifications -- like the Psionics system, the new Essentials classes, and (from the start) the whole wide world of Feats and magic items -- handily illustrate the ease with which new mechanics can sweep into the game. Hell, folks have developed gridless/mini-less combat systems without too much labour, changing maybe 4e's <em>essential, distinguishing rules system</em>...<br /><br />(Small example: substitute fire-and-forget Rituals system for Wizard spells. Goodbye to balance and tight integration of various classes' combat abilities, but hello to a more flavourful, less power-gamer-cheesy magic system. 'But it won't quite work like 4e!' Well, so don't houserule. Whereas houseruling the chaotic early editions produces more chaos, and that's exactly what you'd expect...)Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40706554137530035832012-01-12T09:58:21.165-05:002012-01-12T09:58:21.165-05:00Absolutely.Absolutely.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55029947381918943582012-01-12T09:57:22.621-05:002012-01-12T09:57:22.621-05:00@Reverance
On the other hand, if they were to cor...@Reverance<br /><br /><i>On the other hand, if they were to corral this resource through the provision of a usable online marketplace for dungeons, adventures, monsters, modules, and models, taking a small profit on the transaction, they would not only make money, attract people to their core-branding, and maintain a strong central and enthusiastic on-line focus to their game. But to do that they would have to make the utilities open source and user-modifiable, and make public the toolsets needed to do the job properly and easily (so you don't need to learn how to use Sketch Up to accomplish a result "out of the box"), but I suspect that the brand managers won't allow this (given WOTC's decision with regard to official PDF sales).</i><br /><br />Really, this is like an App Store, but for D&D. Such a thing would be quite valuable, as content produced for it would probably be incompatible with other systems, but would seem like a good value to most customers. Consider, for example, machine-readable modules that can be slotted seamlessly into a virtual tabletop. An approval process like the App Store could keep control of brand management and avoid some of the problems involved in the past D20 glut. As Apple has shown, tools don't need to be open source and user modifiable, but they do need to have a basic level of competency and flexibility.<br /><br />Unfortunately for them, their record with software development has been less than stellar.<br /><br />I have also long thought that any return of the old material, rather than being in PDF form, will likely be some sort of subscription-based online database, something like a "D&D Archive" that is accessible as part of a D&D Insider program. I'm hoping for a print on demand option, myself, but I'm not holding my breath.<br /><br />If they are smart, they will make the player side of the equation (including a non-crippled character builder) entirely free, but charge for extras like book content over and above the rules part.<br /><br />Personally, I despise character builders because of how they enable an exponential increase in rules complexity, which promotes optimization style wargaming "play prior to play" in the form of character builds. I prefer my important character decisions to occur <i>during</i> play, not before play.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53434203380700719942012-01-12T09:51:33.489-05:002012-01-12T09:51:33.489-05:00Hasbro might have demanded a new edition. Hasbro m...<em>Hasbro might have demanded a new edition. Hasbro might have demanded the new edition not be under the OGL. But the game itself? It was designers losing sight of the fact they were supposed to be revising D&D, not implementing their vision of the perfect fantasy game.</em><br /><br />On this score I've always taken the 4e designers' claims at face value, interpolating the obvious anxiety-inducing historical pressure about World of Warcraft: D&D 3.5 took the 1e > 2e > 3e progression to a certain limit in terms of complexity and heft, and 4e was meant as a streamlined way of playing D&D-style adventures in a post-MMORPG environment. I don't think the designers 'lost sight of' anything; it's easier simply to assume that the big 3e > 4e changes went something like this, maybe:<br /><br />* endless multiplication of classes, prestige classes, 'build options': streamline to 'class + per-level tweaks, i.e. powers'<br /><br />* glitchy, top-heavy combat system: make it more abstract, more gamelike, and emphasize movement and party synergy to keep things interesting on the grid, while rewarding group-combat skill from MMORPGs<br /><br />* too many rules and worlds, too steep a learning curve: DMG pg42, and emphasize the successful M:tG 'exception-driven' model of simple rules and context-dependent rules-breakage (feats, powers, etc.)<br /><br />* linear fighters, quadratic wizards: make power progressions roughly equivalent<br /><br />* designing encounters sucks: here's a dead-simple XP budget system, here's the math for balancing encounters, now you have the same encounter-design tools as we have, PLEASE STILL BUY OUR SHITTY MODULES<br /><br />* skill challenges: no one is allowed to edit Mike Mearls (I jest, but 4e's skill challenges are my biggest disappointment with the system in itself)<br /><br />***********<br /><br />My point is that it's reasonable and charitable to assume that Mearls et al. tried to build a coherent game system for playing adventures out of the old days (kill things, take stuff), using the newish 3e/3.5 system with more thoughtful math behind it -- variations on D&D, within older editions' mechanical/stylistic envelope.<br /><br />The 4e design team had no responsibility to existing players, who after all had many many thousands of pages of existing material available for use. Leaving aside the question of whether there's something perverse about caring about a corporate brand (vs a cherished play/imaginative experience), they put out a good game that a lot of players didn't like, for a variety of reasons. I'm fond of guessing at people's psychology but in this case you don't need to: they set out to make a streamlined game that does a certain kind of dungeon combat well, and they delivered it.<br /><br />The fact that millions of suckers love 'The Da Vinci Code' doesn't make it anything other than trash; the fact that several thousand RPGers hate 4e similarly doesn't make it anything other than [whatever it is]. The side-stories about 'the brand' and 'old-school play' and whatnot are side stories.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21790617751256908422012-01-12T05:08:24.131-05:002012-01-12T05:08:24.131-05:00I agree with your comments James. I have tried the...I agree with your comments James. I have tried the various retro-clones, but for some weird reason they don't feel like my beloved Mentzer D&D. There is SOMETHING in "playing D&D." And I will admit that, due to the local gaming population, I had to give 4e a try, and after appropriate house rules (e.g. reducing drastically the number of powers and hit points, and removing the powers that force you to play on a grid) the game has a strange appeal. The 5e designers have even spoken about backward compatibility. If that is true, I suspect many old-schoolers will be more than happy to give 5e a fair try. I know I will.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55540981022967709732012-01-12T04:52:15.613-05:002012-01-12T04:52:15.613-05:00" They're talking about "uniting&quo..." They're talking about "uniting" fans of every edition "<br />That means going to level of lowest common denominator. It will be shit anyway, with their ugly illustrations and infantile settings.Haretonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10270218505196743833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-305854176571622232012-01-12T04:21:22.305-05:002012-01-12T04:21:22.305-05:00Old School Renaissance.Old School Renaissance.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.com