tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7262019761617158022..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Above Ground "Dungeons"James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12359122025650266372010-07-14T09:23:27.014-04:002010-07-14T09:23:27.014-04:00My thoughts on fly is instead of restricting it, h...My thoughts on fly is instead of restricting it, how about enhancing its use. You want your city to previously be home to wizardly types so arcane research labs and stuff floating in the sky above the ruins would be a way to differentiate between the level of encounters you find as well as letting you stock the place with better gear that would tempt player to get there. The floating buildings can also be a way to lead the players to the city by having a crashed building in a town nearby it and tales of the powerful magic found within.Akhier the Dragon Heartedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982936563965623813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56849042678704290662010-03-15T06:20:00.386-04:002010-03-15T06:20:00.386-04:00I've been chewing on this for a while too. I l...I've been chewing on this for a while too. I love the idea of a city as a mega-dungeon.<br /><br />To deal with some of the inherent 'problems' how about:<br />* City is in the style of Machu Pichu. Steppes and plateaus on the sides of an incredibly steep mountain side. Some caves are possible.<br /><br />* City is located in the river-run canyons of the desert lands, with tall, sheer cliff-sides and narrow corridors. Like in Indiana Jones & Last Crusade (end part)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07588841039231426774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1454858493482320052008-12-22T18:18:00.000-05:002008-12-22T18:18:00.000-05:00I've continued to think about this lo these weeks....I've continued to think about this lo these weeks. I don't have anythign brilliant, but it did occur to me that you could establish the levels by having the city built on a hill (or multiple hills). The poorer outer quarters, nearest the walls, are the lowest. As you approach the middle, you have to climb the hills--maybe using the ruins of antique, grand, public stairs or maybe having to climb--that signals that you are approaching the harder levels as much as descending in the typical dungeon.<BR/><BR/>Also, I'm thinking that pterodactlys haunt the skies, always looking for an easy meal, thus forcing the PC's to hug the walls and avoid the open spaces.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7987144025287085352008-12-04T21:41:00.000-05:002008-12-04T21:41:00.000-05:00If it's really heavily and anciently ruined it mig...If it's really heavily and anciently ruined it might initially be mistaken for wilderness. These days <A HREF="http://www.ucl.ac.uk/merv/Research/Publications/LEAP/Rotating/index.htm" REL="nofollow">Merv</A> (once a city of several hundred thousand persons) looks like some oddly regular <A HREF="http://www.nkeconwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/merv%201.JPG" REL="nofollow">hills</A>, but the urban fabric is still there, just under the surface, and walking around it you get these weird glimpses into little rabbit-holes in the ground that you suddenly realise lead into rooms and stairwells. The few standing structures have a <A HREF="http://tedchang.free.fr/CentralAsia/Turkmenistan/Merv.jpg" REL="nofollow">distinct otherness</A> about them: each one looks like the gateway to, well, a dungeon.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14069697938500007002008-12-04T20:58:00.000-05:002008-12-04T20:58:00.000-05:00Going from Big Rubble experience to trying to do s...Going from Big Rubble experience to trying to do something similar for D&D, I think the big hangup for me was in trying to think of it as a "dungeon."<BR/><BR/>The above-ground ruined city (like the underworld of the Drow modules) is really more of a "wilderness," I think. The degree of difference depends chiefly on how big (especially horizontally)and <I>how</I> ruined it is.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59863158833907779872008-12-04T18:24:00.000-05:002008-12-04T18:24:00.000-05:00Gaxmoor - at current prices it's definitely wo...Gaxmoor - at current prices it's definitely worth getting, if only for EGG's enchanted statues! As a 3e module it's flawed*, but there's a ton of good stuff in it. Re-statted for OD&D, 1e or C&C it could be great. Potentially a very nice above ground 'sand box' dungeon for mid-level PCs.<BR/><BR/>*The final villain's stats are hugely OTT. He killed dozens of PCs IMC.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87915503546929558452008-12-04T09:33:00.000-05:002008-12-04T09:33:00.000-05:00I've contemplated buying [The Lost City of Gaxmoor...<EM>I've contemplated buying [The Lost City of Gaxmoor] on several occasions, but never have. Perhaps I should reconsider.</EM><BR/><BR/>Troll Lord has it for sale for a dollar <A HREF="http://trolllord.com/store/osoji_sale.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> if you hurry.Restlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586442439173490257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2954566940417015902008-12-04T09:19:00.000-05:002008-12-04T09:19:00.000-05:00I think most of the gaming ones have been hit on a...I think most of the gaming ones have been hit on above; meanwhile, one of my favourite fantasy cities has always been Nessus from The Book of The New Sun - a city of such size and age that the inhabited part of the city has moved upstream over the millenia, leaving miles and miles of ruins outside - some merely creepy places to visit, some downright dangerous.Efnisienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06460925014292094281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80044851107243783662008-12-04T08:31:00.000-05:002008-12-04T08:31:00.000-05:00It's an illustration by Czech artist Tavik Simon.T...<I>It's an illustration by Czech artist Tavik Simon.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50746459362782900872008-12-04T08:19:00.000-05:002008-12-04T08:19:00.000-05:00One not mentioned is Lost City of Gaxmoor, a genui...<I>One not mentioned is Lost City of Gaxmoor, a genuine ruined city which uses the concentric circles approach, and has a very nice map.</I><BR/><BR/>I've contemplated buying it on several occasions, but never have. Perhaps I should reconsider.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67169272017022210032008-12-04T08:17:00.000-05:002008-12-04T08:17:00.000-05:00As a side-question, what's the origin of the pictu...<I>As a side-question, what's the origin of the picture used for this article?</I><BR/><BR/>It's an illustration by Czech artist Tavik Simon.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88799764916397613212008-12-04T08:16:00.000-05:002008-12-04T08:16:00.000-05:00which I think also explains the charm of the dunge...<I>which I think also explains the charm of the dungeon from a publishing perspective: it's a very concrete, specifiable environment.</I><BR/><BR/>That's a very good point.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79786220590559297312008-12-04T08:15:00.000-05:002008-12-04T08:15:00.000-05:00The best example of a "ruined city" dungeon is Pav...<I>The best example of a "ruined city" dungeon is Pavis, but that's for Runequest, so I don't know if that counts for the purpose of your discussion.</I><BR/><BR/>Pavis certainly counts. Again, I feel stupid for not having remembered it, but then I was never a huge RQ fan.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11876753838841766312008-12-04T08:14:00.000-05:002008-12-04T08:14:00.000-05:00Dwellers of the Forbidden City? It's a little unde...<I>Dwellers of the Forbidden City? It's a little under-developed (as are many things from that era), but I would think it counts.</I><BR/><BR/>I feel silly for not citing this one, as it's a favorite of mine. You're absolutely right, although the way it's presented in the module, the impression is that most of the ruins are very sparsely settled as opposed to the somewhat more riotous idea I have in mind.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49791296191857744432008-12-03T11:52:00.000-05:002008-12-03T11:52:00.000-05:00I tend to buy every 'lost city' I can. Barakus is...I tend to buy every 'lost city' I can. Barakus is just a dungeon. Thracia is a sketchy ruined city over a well-done dungeon. One not mentioned is Lost City of Gaxmoor, a genuine ruined city which uses the concentric circles approach, and has a very nice map. Its 3e stats are wonky but it would make a good old-school (eg 1e) rules ruined city adventure.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32163758797043413112008-12-03T09:42:00.000-05:002008-12-03T09:42:00.000-05:00As a side-question, what's the origin of the pictu...As a side-question, what's the origin of the picture used for this article?anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49561809948281474282008-12-03T09:35:00.000-05:002008-12-03T09:35:00.000-05:00Perhaps the hardest part of a city dungeon would b...Perhaps the hardest part of a city dungeon would be signaling "level of encounter" to the players.<BR/><BR/>One way to force some ground exploration is to make some buildings not accessible from the surface. You need to explore the surrounding buildings to find a tunnel entrance.<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83981890738557380192008-12-03T01:00:00.000-05:002008-12-03T01:00:00.000-05:00Darlene's Greyhawk map lists large ruins scattered...Darlene's Greyhawk map lists large ruins scattered across the Flanaess, which I had always assumed were ruined cities since they're located in the former Suloise and Baklunish lands (along with Blackmoor, and the southern jungles). The lost city of the Suloise in the Suss Forest is also hinted at in the folio and boxed set, and is further developed by Gygax in his novel Artifact of Evil.<BR/><BR/>Other adventures not mentioned yet include Caverns of Thracia (a ruined city in a jungle sits atop its dungeons) and Necromancer Games' Lost City of Barakus. I can't think of any other specific adventures offhand, but have the lingering impression that some MERP and Harn supplements covered ruined cities quite a bit (Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, and others)??<BR/><BR/>Oliver Dickinson's Griselda fiction set in Pavis and The Big Rubble is probably the gaming fiction standard for ruined cities. Also worth checking into is J. Eric Holmes' "In the Bag" short story from Dragon 58, which takes place in a ruined city in/under a forest. <BR/><BR/>Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13347208284320619972008-12-02T17:02:00.000-05:002008-12-02T17:02:00.000-05:00The only RPG I can think of that worked around a m...The only RPG I can think of that worked around a massive ruined city was an experiment by GameWorkshop to explore a small corner of the WH40K universe - in the hive cities of planet Necromunda. This was a number of issues from White Dwarf in the early 90s, and it was called Confrontation. By the mid-90s, the game was end up a skirmish-level wargame called Necromunda. I remember reading the rules books, and being inspired by the art and the idea of exploring dense, urban environments. As a skirmish-level wargame, Necromunda is the best place to fight in. But as a RPG, it can be fun with its dense 3D environments, limited visibility, and lots of nasty, unforeseeable hazards - its like the dame world is one big ass megadungeon!<BR/><BR/>I know Necromunda is not really a fantasy RPG (being more of a Mad-Max cyberpunk with elements of westerns and horror), but it was a major influence with my other games at the time.<BR/><BR/>If you what a game book that gives good ideas about making and exploring ruins, then I recommend reading <I>The Ruins of Hyboria</I>, by Vincent Darlage. It maybe a d20 book, but its for the Conan RPG, and such books has ideas that goes well beyond rules - often throwing out a lot of cliché high fantasy elements out the window!Malcadonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111796978336546944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54787583088825254032008-12-02T16:34:00.000-05:002008-12-02T16:34:00.000-05:00I like Richard's take, but you could always restri...I like Richard's take, but you could always restrict the availability of flying spells and items til you're ready for the adventurers to have them. Fly may be a 3rd level spell, but nobody says that the MU has to find a copy once he hits 5th level.<BR/><BR/>But again, I really like Richard's way of making open spaces scary. How about using pterodons--too big and ungainly to crawl into doorways, but always flapping about int he air, looking for an easy meal.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86050460008725953862008-12-02T16:15:00.000-05:002008-12-02T16:15:00.000-05:00...sorry, the "citadel" link above was supposed to......sorry, the "citadel" link above was supposed to take you to the <A HREF="http://picasaweb.google.com/HKPeech/Uzbekistan#5219349530125716642" REL="nofollow">Bukhara Ark</A>, a bloody great fort-city <I>in the middle of the city</I> of Bukhara, and yet, <A HREF="http://picasaweb.google.com/lorenz.wegener/Uzbekistan2002Bukhara#5071910770403096354" REL="nofollow">obviously separate</A> from it.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40908338982029850962008-12-02T16:06:00.000-05:002008-12-02T16:06:00.000-05:00"Dwellers" is about all I can remember off-hand. I..."Dwellers" is about all I can remember off-hand. It even solves the containment issue by dropping the city right into a big crater, thus restricting access through the populated tradiitonal dungeon areas - although you could always take a swing on the Big Tree!<BR/><BR/>If you get serious about this, take a look at the article "Ruin" from Dragon #54. I've used that in the past for fleshing out a ruined city and it comes in very handy when the party starts wandering into un-detailed territory.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-99725127484081782008-12-02T16:03:00.000-05:002008-12-02T16:03:00.000-05:00a ring-like structureI'd plead against anything so...<I>a ring-like structure</I><BR/>I'd plead against anything so simple: one of the joys of cities is the variety of neighbourhoods, and I don't see why a ruined city would lack this. Instead, what about cities-within-the-city? Rabbit-warren <A HREF="http://gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/places-and-sights/_more2002/_more11/Morocco-Marrakech-souk-souq-market-2-WL.jpg" REL="nofollow">covered</A> <A HREF="http://www.siriustravel.com/turkey99/laceyphots99/market.jpg" REL="nofollow">souks</A>, caravanserais, <A HREF="http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/267564.html" REL="nofollow">slums</A>, <A HREF="http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Bukhara03.jpg/250px-Bukhara03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhara&usg=__cnPGoQti0C2EZ_L8MlgrmiYgEYw=&h=384&w=250&sz=39&hl=en&start=23&sig2=6UYfjHV_bAGemxBs2vPQmQ&um=1&tbnid=NsD01pbRATdU8M:&tbnh=123&tbnw=80&ei=SZ41Sc3lDofgePzntYMI&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbukhara%2Babdullah%2Bkhan%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DE0w%26sa%3DN" REL="nofollow">citadels</A> and <A HREF="http://www.flickr.com/photos/acordova/863145278/" REL="nofollow">cloisters</A> forming their own pockets of dunegon-ness? Oh, and <A HREF="http://www.panoramio.com/photo/10700732" REL="nofollow">underground reservoirs</A>, natch.<BR/><BR/><I>spells like fly and dimension door that might enable them to "skip"</I><BR/>Might I suggest adding a near-ubiquitous flying threat? This would not only discourage flying spells, it would make open squares and courtyards threatening environments, encouraging PCs to stay in the relative safety and shelter of alleyways and buildings, snatching map-enabling glimpses of the whole city from tower windows - it might give you a nicely claustrophobic vibe that dungeons generally lack. Coupled with a <A HREF="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Sana%27a.jpg/532px-Sana%27a.jpg" REL="nofollow">really tight urban fabric</A>, it might make flying not that much of a shortcut. The threat then acts as a gauntlet, restricting your flying towers to higher level explorers, and adding a logistical challenge on dungeon exit: how to get back with all the loot, when the flyers know you're there?<BR/><BR/>I was always looking for a decent city setting book and I never found one, although plenty of people tried: I think the problem is the scale - it requires a more procedural approach - advice/tools for making city regions with minimal start information, rather than fully mapped environments, which I think also explains the charm of the dungeon from a publishing perspective: it's a very concrete, specifiable environment.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20577896393528314772008-12-02T15:41:00.000-05:002008-12-02T15:41:00.000-05:00Another problem with cities is increased visibilit...Another problem with cities is increased visibility such as from flying straight up and mapping the whole city from above, or just from being on rooftop.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that can work for you if most of the major locations also be landmarks; the red tower you can see from everywhere, the golden-domed temple by the river, the plumes of smoke rising from the humanoid-infested hill. Obvious places that scream "here there be loot". Then exploration can proceed somewhat like a wilderness adventure but with a few important locations already known.<BR/><BR/>Of course with an underground city of tunnels and large caverns you can have the best of both worlds.K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56549085137682595232008-12-02T15:14:00.000-05:002008-12-02T15:14:00.000-05:00A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity takes place in a ru...<I>A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity</I> takes place in a ruined city, and informs the game master that many adventures could be had in the city itself. The temple could be described as one "level" of a ruined city dungeon in that respect.<BR/><BR/>The dungeons that Conan enters in the REH stories are frequently long abandoned cities. <I>The Slithering Shadow</I> and <I>Jewels of Gwahlur</I> particularly stick out in my mind.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.com