tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post735327041121746960..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Transitional Technologies and RPGsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30197774935097029632010-11-06T01:19:17.818-04:002010-11-06T01:19:17.818-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Spawn of Endrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431848914619887998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83495266656599323982010-11-06T01:15:57.313-04:002010-11-06T01:15:57.313-04:00One aspect not explored in this analogy (which bea...One aspect not explored in this analogy (which bears on the OSR) is the loss of fidelity between analog tape and digital mp3 (or the digital transfer to CD). What is being lost in the music is the range and texture of sound, which vinyl folks go on about all the time. Largely that is the decimation involved in compressing the audio files, but also the norm is to listen to music now on earbuds ... i.e. speakers that are 1cm in diameter. No serious person would settle for that as a norm of listening even 20 years ago. The walkman filled a niche (personal sound while mobile), but at the same time, the boom box was the serious mobile party sound system, and in homes people had component stereos of greater or lesser elaboration. <br /><br />The thing I wonder about is really the loss of signal that the shift to one technology or another drives. mp3 as a default format has stripped away entire ranges and landscapes of sound (and arguably, all recorded music has vis a vis live music, so I don't mean to be blindly nostalgic). It's not that we can't have a full and rich spectrum of sound , but if the full spectrum is never presented to 10-, 12-, 15-year olds, then will people continue to make use of it, and carry it forward as a distinct MEDIUM?<br /><br />So in a roundabout way, we may think about the old table top RPGs in this way. There is a texture and richness, a fidelity of signal, and also a mode of production that is unique to them, which can be lost if it is not reproduced through practice. And if no one knows of the lost richness, it simply disappears, WILL NOT BE EXPECTED, can not be retrieved. As an archaeologist I face this constantly: I look at a potsherd, an arrow point, a sculpture, and can try to envision what artistic tradition and personal acumen went into it's production, but no matter how long I stare at it and reverse engineer it, I can at best reproduce a decimated, and relatively sterile, approximation of the "system" that produced it. As much as I study it now, I can't reconstitute its production as a viable self-sustaining craft/art production mode, because the links in the chain of production (which are social institutions, usually) have been been severed. <br /><br />Unless the taste and the style and the experience of table-top rpg is transmitted directly to others not familiar with it, and it is found to be superior to other forms (i.e., computer games), or at least stand on its own merits, the MEDIUM that is table-top rpg can not be carried forward. There will be no taste for it, no feeling for it, no palpable sense of its style, no desire to consume and reproduce it.<br /><br />It is, I suppose, a question of whether anyone cares about the loss of texture, depth, quality, warmth, or whatever that I think the old school provides, that newer systems don't (balanced against all of the things the new systems do provide). But really, this old school 'feel' is precisely the basis of most marketing and propaganda for new old school products. A common rhetorical theme appeals to the gamer that isn't quite getting what they needed from some newer-fangled system they've migrated to, and OSR is the proposed solution. The unanswered question is how many outside the old school base will be compelled by this argument.Spawn of Endrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431848914619887998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79678894012872029632010-11-05T00:48:06.275-04:002010-11-05T00:48:06.275-04:00Sigh... Yes, sadly paper-and-pencil RPGs are a tra...Sigh... Yes, sadly paper-and-pencil RPGs are a transitional technology. As the human race get's stupider and stupider, we'll needs microprocessors and CGI to replace our atrophied and vestigial imaginations.Mark Sieferthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14409314388156575545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23766694428611474262010-11-05T00:45:43.335-04:002010-11-05T00:45:43.335-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mark Sieferthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14409314388156575545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5514210812943614032010-11-05T00:44:18.086-04:002010-11-05T00:44:18.086-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mark Sieferthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14409314388156575545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26822653874679994712010-11-04T19:04:21.103-04:002010-11-04T19:04:21.103-04:00Quick story - how I got into RPGs.
It was summer,...Quick story - how I got into RPGs.<br /><br />It was summer, 1989. I was six years old. My Dad and I had just finished reading 'The Hobbit', and now, we were on vacation in Florida, visiting my Mom's side of the family. A lot of the time, I spend with my Grandpa, as the two of us played 'Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link'. We both loved it as much as the first one, and enjoyed exploring the huge world together.<br /><br />Anyway, one night, all the adults are out, and the teenaged next-door neighbor is babysitting me, my sister, and my cousins. I'm going on and on about random fantasy stuff, and suddenly, she says, 'have you ever heard of Dungeons and Dragons?'<br /><br />The very first thing I think of as she describes the game is '...I could be LINK!!!' I loved the idea that I could take this character that I thought of as really cool, and take him on adventures that I and other people thought of. I got the Mentzer red box for my birthday, and the blue box (complete with Isle of Dread) for Christmas, and though I never played them with other kids, they were my first taste of rpg books. So, I guess you could, theoretically, say that I came to roleplaying because of the limitations of computer games. :)<br /><br />Because of that, both types of gaming have very much been linked in my mind - for instance, the first time I ever saw AD&D rules was through playing the old 'Pool of Radiance' crpg. When I finally did start tabletop gaming in Middle School, my gaming inspiration was pretty evenly split between whatever fantasy books I was reading, and whatever computer games I'd been playing.<br /><br />So, basically, I see computer games and tabletop as two worlds that aren't mutually exclusive, and I see CRPGs as something I can 'mine' for gaming just as much as books. <br /><br />(I should also probably add that, while I've played several MMOs, I've found that the roleplay on them always ends up being tremendously disappointing, due to their domination by snotty, cliquish, passive-aggressive sophists - but then again, I'd say the same thing about the LARP I tried going to, so maybe it's just me.)<br /><br />Interestingly, though, I just realized that, I don't think that I ever actually got to 'play' as Link. Maybe I'll have to keep it in mind...Chaos Clockworkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04122472296580033166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78720638344798521932010-11-04T15:44:09.916-04:002010-11-04T15:44:09.916-04:00I hope I don't repeat anyone's thoughts he...I hope I don't repeat anyone's thoughts here, but reading the topic made me think this: <br /><br />Computer games are not creative activities. You are basically following a predefined scripted world where your ability to improvise is limited to whatever was programmed into the game system. From the GMs point of view there is no comparison to the creativity required for running an RPG and what you do when playing a computer game. Even in when you can create levels in a computer game it is very limiting compared with the wide open vistas that you have for creating a world in an RPG (especially if you homebrew your rules). So for GMs, from a creativity perspective, Computer Games do not hold a candle to RPGs. On the other hand from the Player's point of view it is much less the case, though still very true in most cases. All that said, I think that the creativity aspect of GMing can be brought into computer games, and will be eventually. Then the two worlds will merge, and then we will all live in little pods like that nice man Neo.vbwyrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14031787268876015417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81383643439723119862010-11-04T04:41:49.139-04:002010-11-04T04:41:49.139-04:00The way I look at it, there are several distinct e...The way I look at it, there are several distinct elements at work here. (coming at this more generally than focused on the transitionary element)<br /><br />-First is videogames as entertainment. While a videogame can't give the creativity and freedom of a tabletop RPG, it CAN give spectacle and a sense of more...Direct control, in a way. Speaking as a young man of only 18 years of age, I can tell you that my RPG experience has a distinct feeling of...Disconnect, in that I'm only poking at the mechanics to have my success or failure at an individual task determined largely by a (often weighted) random decision. A realtime action videogame has far more direct interaction with its mechanical end, giving it more grip as a /game/.<br /><br />-Second is the social element. I think what happened there isn't that people got less social, but that they got less interested in socializing /randomly/. People still hang out with their friends, they just don't particularly want to meet their neighbor just because they live on the same street. This is good and bad, but its main problem is limiting how we meet new people and potential players. The whole concept of the Network and its decay.<br /><br />-Third is freedom to play when and how one wants. If I want to play D&D with my buddies, well, okay, let's all get together and play. If I take a random vacation day off of work for the hell of it and want to play...Well, crap. All my friends are off at their jobs. Meanwhile, I can play Halo at 2 AM in my underpants if I'm so inclined, and can likely find people to play with/against if I want to do multiplayer. To compare to non-interactive media, everything short of live theater is available on-demand, or close to it. TV, movies, books, music, graphic novels, all can be enjoyed at 2 AM in one's underpants.<br /><br />-Fourth is the...Alternative means of roleplaying as a general concept that people have. And I don't mean pretending to be a naughty schoolgirl and the perverted teacher. I mean stuff like RP guilds in WoW, or freeform online roleplaying, which is how I got into the concept to begin with. People have an urge to /tell stories/, not necessarily to do so with polyhedral dice and grid paper. I won't say the RP guilds or the freeform forums are /better/, but they're certainly where most of those potential teenage D&D fans are, in large part because that's all people know.<br /><br />Finally, I'd just like to say: Someone above mentioned they could only think of two videogames that'd sparked their imagination. Really, dude/dudette? I don't know what you're playing, but most every modern game on my shelf sparks my imagination when I play it. Whether it's Fallout, or Devil May Cry, or even Halo, the elements grab my brain and start to extrapolate new elements and concepts. Now, maybe I'm crazy for going that far, but it's media, and quite frankly, I don't see any reason why one form isn't as capable of grabbing one's thoughts and sending them spiraling off into new waters. ...My metaphor kind of got lost there.<br /><br />EDIT: Oh, and my not-a-robot word verification was "nonante". I have decided this is a creature not unlike a deer on steroids. If you sharpened the deer's antlers to /razor sharp points/ and put them on independently controlled muscle nodes, letting the creature twist and tilt them around like a cat does with its ears.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07962170148448119034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74035385362123514162010-11-03T20:15:39.333-04:002010-11-03T20:15:39.333-04:00“By this I mean that the ability to design and bui...“<i>By this I mean that the ability to design and build your own computer RPG will require less and less specialized knowledge and dedicated resources.</i>”<br /><br />This has been available for a long time. There have been many “make your own CRPG” products.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50828561926800551902010-11-03T06:28:09.754-04:002010-11-03T06:28:09.754-04:00The basic ground's been covered in comments he...The basic ground's been covered in comments here, I think. I'd just add that, although RPGs are fundamentally different from anything (and I mean anything) offered on computers, they were indispensible to the evolution of long-interaction-period (ie non-"casual") video games. To the extent we have video games deeper than space invaders and plants vs. zombies, RPGs and wargames are to blame. And I'd be fascinated if anyone knows how big a market long-interaction games actually have now, as a share of the overall video game market - I've an unscientific feeling that wii games etc tend to devolve to easily-digested little bites (game levels, simple sets of interactions), and that multi-hour campaign-type play is diminishing again, after the spike of WoW.<br /><br />And on that topic I see that the spectre of market share is not so easily dismissed: this is an avowedly non-commercial (or soft-commercial), non-mainstream forum, and yet most of us still equate the "real world" with "what most people are doing right now." Despite James' last paragraph, the prompt for a post like this is consciousness of difference from the norm. And I think it's a mistake, despite the history of video games and the common fantasy language, to imagine that the payload/reward of video games has anything to do with that of RPGs.<br /><br />As for the fear of extinction (which here is alleged no longer to apply to video games), my question is why do we engage in this cultural practice, of playing games, and why would video games be more appealing to more people than RPGs? I don't have a complete answer, but I think part of it is merely a scale issue: video games and RPGs both started out as almost-exclusively male pastimes, but video games became more entrenched because (pauses to put on hard hat) a large enough number of males played them long enough and steadily enough that large numbers of females could no longer ignore them (and I'd stake long enough at about 25 years, and a large enough number as, say, 40+% of the breeding pool). So now females also play video games in large numbers, and it's stopped being something you "grow out of." We can ask what snagged those males for 25 years, and why they played in sufficient numbers, but I don't think we have to assume that there was any more critical difference than that - any idea of video games being somehow intrinsically more lasting or higher evolutionary achievements in entertainment than RPGs.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33194385674863976002010-11-03T01:17:36.379-04:002010-11-03T01:17:36.379-04:00@Akhier- I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe my video g...@Akhier- I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe my video games suck, but my experience of tabletop gaming is WAY different from a video game. The world of a video game is preprogrammed, while our D&D worlds are constantly changing at the blink of an eye. I bought Labyrinth Lord for $30 bucks and I can play for the rest of my life, create any world I can imagine. I spent $60 on Oblivion and I can only play in that one world and all I can really do is fight, cast, talk, and pick up/drop items.<br /><br />On that note, with video games it is impossible to get the experience of a dungeon master. World creation, rules modification, sculpting of the experience...this is lacking even in the best video games.<br /><br />My contention is, and I mean this with no grognard crankiness at all, that people are lazy. The laziness we all have inclines us to choose the inferior at times just because its easy. We readers of your blog, however, grew up at a time when we didn't have the easy way available, so we discovered the joy of the "hard way." I liken it to listening to music on an iPod vs. live music. Live music is immensely more entertaining, but we go to live performances less than our ancestors because we have the ease of recordings. But when we can rise above our sloth, we get to enjoy the satisfaction of the true art. Likewise, far into the future I believe kids will overcome their sloth, pick up an rpg and have an experience unlike any they've had before.Alexeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04962792394148711578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-581545460814335242010-11-02T21:53:02.331-04:002010-11-02T21:53:02.331-04:00Despite there being video games that are called &q...Despite there being video games that are called "roleplaying games" you can not currently get a true role playing experience from them. In a good game of DnD with a competent DM anything you think of can happen whether its swinging from a chandelier or having your characters make some wooden dice and paper then play some DnD themselves. A video game no matter how good can only do what it is programmed to do and no programmer thinks of everything. Saying that because we have computer roleplaying games so we do not need DnD is like saying we have computer sports games so we do not need to play the real thing.Akhier the Dragon Heartedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982936563965623813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79570914383813072042010-11-02T19:36:25.543-04:002010-11-02T19:36:25.543-04:00I'd go further back-- tabletop RPGs are more l...I'd go further back-- tabletop RPGs are more like pianos. You don't need to plug them in, but you need to do *something* to make the music and get everyone sing along: "Those were the days!"Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67013257361480723052010-11-02T19:02:53.313-04:002010-11-02T19:02:53.313-04:00Me: What did you do at grandpa's today?
Son: I...Me: What did you do at grandpa's today?<br />Son: It was fun! We listened to a bunch of Granpa's giant black CDs.<br /><br />The RPG experience is different then listening to music, watching movies, or playing a video game. The best way I can describe it is like "Cabella's Big Hunter". Yeah, you shoot a deer, but man, you ain't hunting! <br /><br />There will always be a segment of the population who enjoys the real, and those who would rather do vicariously. Theatre, Concerts, Board Games, and RPGs will always exist. Here is where the next generation of writers will get their experience.Infamoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13979774352890690528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42109759975918680652010-11-02T18:51:45.811-04:002010-11-02T18:51:45.811-04:00The preceding in reply to, "So long as I cont...The preceding in reply to, "So long as I continue to derive pleasure from tabletop roleplaying, what difference does it makes if most people would rather do something else?"Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52284346073996835162010-11-02T18:51:10.976-04:002010-11-02T18:51:10.976-04:00Of course, there are network effects. More people ...Of course, there are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effects" rel="nofollow">network effects</a>. More people playing one game makes it easier to find other players/ producers/ audience.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79586863156725452482010-11-02T18:12:44.196-04:002010-11-02T18:12:44.196-04:00I think the key thing to remember is that changes ...I think the key thing to remember is that changes to the culture are harder to see or emphasize with when a major change occurs. There are people growing up now who don't have the same perspective as we do. <br /><br />If you're a kid today in many (but not all) modern cultures, you have seen computers from the outset, which means they are used to things from the get go that we are only now getting used to. When people say "computer won't replace the feel of paper, the smell of fresh newsprint", to defend the old ways, etc., they don't realize that the kids who grow up with a tablet/e-reader will likely not care about that stuff. <br /><br />Do I think there will be social drawbacks and things to criticize? Yes, I do. But I also believe that there are a lot of positives from these changes as well.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30229909974598810702010-11-02T17:42:59.527-04:002010-11-02T17:42:59.527-04:00I've been thinking thoughts like this myself. ...I've been thinking thoughts like this myself. When I watch my daughter I realize she already lives in a world apart from mine. Heck, probably a bunch of you people reading this comment does. I grew up during the cold war, and becoming older I have many times reflected upon how strongly this have affected me. All my ideas on freedom, society and how to meet the End stem from that. Mind boggling.<br /><br />On another matter, Blackstone's comment feels a bit cynical, but oh so spot on...AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53638968099237265602010-11-02T17:23:58.900-04:002010-11-02T17:23:58.900-04:00On RPGs, as I've said many times: "Tablet...On RPGs, as I've said many times: "Tabletop RPGs are to video games as theater is to movies." <br /><br />In each case, the former is more immediate, intimate, has deeper personal connections, has once-in-a-lifetime happy accidents, and is generally preferred by those professionals working in the industry. The latter is easier to package and reproduce on a mass scale and therefore market to the public at large (making it both a better business and far more familiar to most consumers). Both will continue side-by-side, but the ratio (very small to very large) will not change appreciably.<br /><br />Great observation on technological continuity between us and our parents' generation.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11598593197859843992010-11-02T16:46:21.037-04:002010-11-02T16:46:21.037-04:00It isn't the console or standard PC games that...It isn't the console or standard PC games that have taken the newer generations away from the pen and paper hobby. It is MMORPGs like WoW. There is a lot of online social interaction around the regular groups of players in guilds. That is totally the modern equivalent of what I grew up doing in a real face to face group. I'm not saying they are the same thing, because they aren't...but it is the modern day substitute.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07397554099246666778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61918027611888945032010-11-02T16:06:04.436-04:002010-11-02T16:06:04.436-04:00I think that there will be an increasing convergen...I think that there will be an increasing convergence between the tabletop and the computer RPG. By this I mean that the ability to design and build your own computer RPG will require less and less specialized knowledge and dedicated resources. Also, the increased utility of such programs will also feed back into the tabletop environment, especially with the increasing prevalence of tablets at the table.<br /><br />[An idea of the later is the new edition of Warhammer FRPG, which makes extensive use of specialized material components, both to provide a continuing revenue stream and to defeat piracy. Fine for FFG, with it's ready access to boardgame component manufacturers, but what if you wanted to customize or modify the game, or don't have access to these resources. Now what if that was a dedicated app for a tablet? The entry bar is a lot lower. And you get an increased revenue stream (one for each player) without the shipping and warehousing issues. Let alone the electronic release of new expansions and additions. Eventually I see rule books disappearing, and tabletop games being run from the "character sheet" on the tablet (possibly talking to the other tablets in the vicinity by wireless). Or at least I find the idea that is starting to become possible intriguing.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32479292601874900042010-11-02T15:37:17.804-04:002010-11-02T15:37:17.804-04:00No need to worry. As soon as the Great Internet Ba...No need to worry. As soon as the Great Internet Ban of 2015 kicks in, due to such communication devices being a threat to National Security, we'll be back in business!<br /><br />The wi-fi suppression fields will only be averted only if you are extremely affluent, as they will be a luxury. Internet isn'y for common folk. <br /><br />RPG's will be back as our main Bread & Circus! <br /><br />Ciao!<br />GWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44298995341605773682010-11-02T14:44:31.340-04:002010-11-02T14:44:31.340-04:00What a society holds as popular in entertainment i...What a society holds as popular in entertainment is generally a reflection of the society as a whole.<br /><br />-Instant gratification.<br />-Little to no REAL human interaction.<br />-Little or no mental effort upon the entertained.<br /><br />there is much in today's culture that's fits this criteria well.blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64563471757823313092010-11-02T14:43:19.994-04:002010-11-02T14:43:19.994-04:00RPGs aren't transitional they are a mostly uni...RPGs aren't transitional they are a mostly unique invention. The mighty video game was once a fad that was even declared a dead market by professionals. popularity of entertainments ebb and flow. <br /><br />The walkman and the ipod do the same darned thing and really are the same thing an electronic gadget to play entertainments to the user on the go. Whiel the specifics may have changed and ipod (or other feature rich) mp3player is just a fancy walkman.<br />Fancying up real roleplaying games will be trickier then fancying up the walkman.<br /><br />Remote game play over computers doesn't improve face to face game play or the sales of roleplaying games.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33967750442743100252010-11-02T14:43:01.696-04:002010-11-02T14:43:01.696-04:00The ubiquitous technologies of our youth are alien...The ubiquitous technologies of our youth are alien to today's youth. What would the inverse corollary be to: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."<br /><br />Any sufficiently dated technology is indistinguishable from ___?<br /><br />On a related subject, last year there was a great story in BBC's news magazine about a 13-year-old kid being asked to trade in his iPod for a Walkman for a week:<br /><br /><a href="http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/29/kid-swaps-ipod-for-sony-walkman-gets-confused/" rel="nofollow">http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/29/kid-swaps-ipod-for-sony-walkman-gets-confused/</a><br /><br />Here's a great quote from the article: "It took me three days to figure out that there was another side to the tape."Todd A. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16177477114706281373noreply@blogger.com