tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7584755303535402564..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Open Friday: Remembering Fritz LeiberJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45979493465349762942011-01-19T17:00:01.995-05:002011-01-19T17:00:01.995-05:00Hi there,
My name is Guy Thomas, I'm doing pu...Hi there,<br /><br />My name is Guy Thomas, I'm doing publications for a new science fiction convention called Fogcon http://fogcon.org/. I was wondering if you had rights to that Fritz Lieber picture posted on your blog or do you know who has rights? He is one of our Honored Guests (posthumously of course) and I'd love to use this picture in our program book. Please e-mail me at xangoexu@gmail.com if you can help me or have any questions. Thanks a lot.Stonebenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033631070595497220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46172762012428988802011-01-04T13:42:17.330-05:002011-01-04T13:42:17.330-05:00Read more of Leiber. VERDICT: Really dislike him. ...Read more of Leiber. VERDICT: Really dislike him. Don't like the clunky names, and I find his descriptions ridiculous . . . White witches throwing snowballs, a girl getting knocked out by a snowball, Fafrd being described as built like a tall girl with a downy chin. And I really dislike writing that tries to titillate, and Leiber really does this. In the first ten pages of "Snow Women," Leiber tries to stir the reader sexually two times. Sorry, I don't want to be titillated by Leiber's crass imagination. I'd rather leave Leiber out of that part of my life. All writing tries to influence, and Leiber's influence is far from noble. Really, he seems like the swords and sorcery equivalent of romance novels . . . yechh. LOTR, Hobbit, Hour of the Dragon: these are Light years beyond Leiber.THOMAShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813124910386890089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6328848982745445722010-12-27T17:37:11.256-05:002010-12-27T17:37:11.256-05:00I just finished rereading "Ill Met in Lankhma...I just finished rereading "Ill Met in Lankhmar" and didn't realize it was so close to Leiber's 100th birthday. I find myself returning to Lankhmar more frequently than Melnibone or Cimmeria or even Barsoom. The adventures of F & GM are certainly light at times, but like a fast riposte can suddenly become deadly serious. The storming of the Thieves' Guild in "Ill Met" is a great case in point. The image of their assault has remained vivid in my mind since first reading it more than 30 years ago, made moreso by the contrasting lack of humorous banter. Truly remarkable stuff.Brendan Bellinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11934784225240590388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49620298263625725492010-12-27T11:29:15.302-05:002010-12-27T11:29:15.302-05:00I first heard of F & the GM in Deities and Dem...I first heard of F & the GM in Deities and Demigods when I was a young teenager, actually. I didn't know anything about their origins for a long time, not until years later when I finally came across the short stories.Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63178937218868055442010-12-27T10:08:11.370-05:002010-12-27T10:08:11.370-05:00Rafial said: "No fear, he, she or it is ;) It...Rafial said: "<i>No fear, he, she or it is ;) It's popular to rubbish these latter stories of F&GM, but for my money they are some of the best.</i>"<br /><br />I don't know whether it is "popular to rubbish" Leiber's final Nehwon stories or not -- I don't even know among whom it would be 'popular'. The claim doesn't make much sense to me. <br /><br />I certainly *wish* that I could praise them as much as I do the earlier stories!<br /><br />I *personally* find the final stories (and especially the final one) to be extremely weak, a real disappointment compared to the earlier stories. Apparently, so do many other readers (the perception that the final stories are weak is 'popular' because many people find them to be weak, not because rubbishing the final stories is a 'popular' thing to do).<br /><br />I'm glad that Rafial found the final stories to be enjoyable. I did not. I found them lacking in excitement, and I did not care to read in great detail about Fafhrd urinating on a ship while floating through the air, or about the Mouser's difficulties in having an orgasm. (*shrug*)Akrasiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08734103159691571156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68649046598676327332010-12-26T21:14:54.589-05:002010-12-26T21:14:54.589-05:00"I've yet to read The Knight & Knave ..."I've yet to read The Knight & Knave of Swords and hope Akrasia is wrong.:)"<br /><br />No fear, he, she or it is ;) It's popular to rubbish these latter stories of F&GM, but for my money they are some of the best. The tone is quite different, which I suspect trips people up, because both the Duo, and Leiber, have reached a more mature and self reflective point in their lives and careers. I have to say that I feel that the stories in K&KoS make a perfect coda to the history of the pair.Rafialhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077298546098373938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13825151759423511742010-12-25T01:15:07.839-05:002010-12-25T01:15:07.839-05:00From his great imagery to his witty dialogue, I ca...From his great imagery to his witty dialogue, I can't think of another writer of fantasy who was as well-rounded as the grand sage of Nehwon was in his time. Happy Birthday!crowkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1277119059511146622010-12-25T00:49:37.516-05:002010-12-25T00:49:37.516-05:00I'll just repeat Geoffrey,
The Fafhrd and th...I'll just repeat Geoffrey, <br /><br />The Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories feel more like D&D to me than do any other stories.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08864993221502918896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35572202507690461672010-12-25T00:31:46.002-05:002010-12-25T00:31:46.002-05:00It's totally my fault comments aren't enab...It's totally my fault comments aren't enabled on 'Merry Christmas', isn't it?<br /><br />Anyway: The first few paragraphs of Snow Women is seriously some of the best poetry in English and until Lieber gets read in schools before F Scott Fitzgerald he's less appreciated than he oughtta be.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57326185984318394902010-12-24T23:56:26.206-05:002010-12-24T23:56:26.206-05:00I have to agree with Legerdemain-G-M. I really lov...I have to agree with Legerdemain-G-M. I really love the first three stories, and for the same reasons. Scandinavian? I hadn't made that connection, but I can give it a nod.<br /><br />I think F&GM represent the D&D adventurer "vibe," if not fitting in too well to the mechanics. Although if you look into their backgrounds and are willing to work your way up to their "jack-of-all-trades" status, it doesn't seem that far off to me.<br /><br />I absolutely associate D&D and fantasy roleplaying with JG's City State of the Invincible Overlord. I think its resemblance to Lankhmar is hard to miss.Baron Greystonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00308709526041513401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27311839228775345192010-12-24T23:54:07.150-05:002010-12-24T23:54:07.150-05:00I embarrassingly have only read the Mignola comics...I embarrassingly have only read the Mignola comics of Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser. On the plus side, this post goaded me into buying the first book of the series, so I can catch up.mordicaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05713766652793265867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28200634060243771582010-12-24T23:33:00.737-05:002010-12-24T23:33:00.737-05:00Having just reread the first three stories, I have...Having just reread the first three stories, I have to disagree that there is no gravitas. In The Snow Women there is a great, desperate urgency for Fafhrd to get out from under his mother's clutches, to escape Cold Corner, and to not share the same grizzly fate of his father. Even within the eroticism there is a barbaric stocism and mirth that resonates. In the Unholy Grail the Mouser practically drives himself insane dabbling in dark magic to torture a man in revenge for the death of his mentor. And finally in Il Meant the twain's two loves are eaten alive by rats resulting in the revelry being over and a full on assault on a thieves guild. The loss is palpable in stark contrast to the previous flirtations and giddiness. Yes, there is merriment and folly, a playfulness and jocundity throughout, but I would also argue that the core of their bond is a deep, kindred pathos and seething gravitas burning beneath their play. It feels very Scandinavian to me, the contrast between the bawdy and the melancholy.Professor Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14553875574589978412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7445873411076680472010-12-24T22:21:26.996-05:002010-12-24T22:21:26.996-05:00Crazy as this may sound, Lieber and Moorcock are m...Crazy as this may sound, Lieber and Moorcock are my favorite classic sword & sorcery authors as well but are also the beginning of my disillusionment with the D&D game. Blasphemy? Madness? Lies? Bare with me...<br /><br />Try stating up the Gray Mouser. He's a thief, who fights pretty well and can use some magic. Not possible for a Human in most early editions of D&D and AD&D without quite a bit of effort. Certainly not as a starting character.<br /><br />Now let's take a look at Elric...warrior, sorceror, not an Elf but not Human...begins the game with the ability to command dragons and the wealth and title of Prince. Can your first level guy do that? Not likely.<br /><br />I'm simplifying but the point is Lieber's rich world and characters always felt shoehorned when attached to D&D and its mechanics. His creations deserved something a bit more flexible. <br /><br />Happy Birthday Fritz!<br /><br />And Happy Holidays James and everyone here. Sorry to be such a D&D hater this past year. I'll try to like it more in 2011. :)Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25671208464681780252010-12-24T20:48:30.498-05:002010-12-24T20:48:30.498-05:00I inherited the Ace paperbacks from a neighbor, an...I inherited the Ace paperbacks from a neighbor, and enjoyed them. Come a two-player TFT session later, I finagled my co-player into setting up our characters with a Fahfrd and Mouser vibe ... and when I described it in those terms to our GM, she just about swallowed her glasses. It turns out she was cribbing our adventure from the Lankhmar box set ....<br /><br />Alas, we only had that one session, but the other player and I knocked the banter out of the park...Bob Portnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563075580066984380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79521090396620656232010-12-24T20:43:11.182-05:002010-12-24T20:43:11.182-05:00I'm intrigued, though, that you paint FL as un...<i>I'm intrigued, though, that you paint FL as unsung. I wonder whether this is different if one is asking gaming enthusiasts or fantasy writers.</i><br /><br>I'm thinking primarily of gamers, who, in my experience anyway, aren't all that familiar with Leiber, let alone appreciative of the debt our hobby owes to his work.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62056910973794539692010-12-24T20:41:44.183-05:002010-12-24T20:41:44.183-05:00Incidentally, that's part of the reason the La...<i>Incidentally, that's part of the reason the Lankhmar stories I've read didn't impress me: they were TOO light and jolly, and so I didn't feel like anything happening in the stories felt real or important. There wasn't any gravitas.</i><br /><br>I guess it depends on what one is looking for in swords-and-sorcery fiction. Speaking for myself, I prefer something a lot less weighty than many, so Leiber's stories really fit the bill.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15281202368964297102010-12-24T20:40:11.127-05:002010-12-24T20:40:11.127-05:00And if Hollywood needs fresh ideas, they could do ...<i>And if Hollywood needs fresh ideas, they could do worse than to take an interest in Nehwon. Although I'd worry about them screwing it up...</i><br /><br>Yes: much as I'd love to see a <i>well-done</i> cinematic rendition of some of the Lankhmar tales, I'd rather Hollywood just ignore them entirely if they can't be bothered to treat them with respect. I mean, look at poor Robert E. Howard ...James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90815665301120534482010-12-24T18:52:42.425-05:002010-12-24T18:52:42.425-05:00Here's but one of my Leiber memories.
http://...Here's but one of my Leiber memories.<br /><br />http://marclaidlaw.com/fritz-leiber/Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08555938436756325000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6725523526550833482010-12-24T18:03:33.752-05:002010-12-24T18:03:33.752-05:00A couple of weeks ago I wrote a post about great w...A couple of weeks ago I wrote a post about great writers I never cared for--December 13 under the "Flashing Swords" title--yeah, I know you really want to look it up. But I think I've finally put my finger on what's preventing me from liking Leiber, it's that light, jaunty tone and the names he gives his characters. Thanks to the posters here for helping me realize this.<br /><br />Looking at these pictures of him, though, he seems like a likable fellow--anyone who wears bow ties can't be all bad. I kind of regret not liking his work. Nonetheless, as this particular blog entry has asked for positives I won't get into the particulars of this gentleman's stories, other than it's nice (and surprising) to know he has some ardent admirers. <br /><br />Merry Christmas everyone.uwarrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14317203334211498424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50202042768950061522010-12-24T16:02:50.499-05:002010-12-24T16:02:50.499-05:00I read Leiber as a teenager; didn't like him. ...I read Leiber as a teenager; didn't like him. This blog made me read a few pages from "Swords and Deviltry" this morning. First thing I noticed: the jaunty, jocular style. This communicates to me that the author doesn't have anything to say. So it seems frivolous and has no gravitas. As a reader it takes with wind out of my sails. Second thing I noticed: Leiber's names are often clunky and hard to pronounce ("Seelba"). I can "hear" words as I read them, and his verbiage seems awkward to say the least. There may be a reason why Leiber is forgotten, right along with the Harold Shea novels of De Camp. (I wonder if "campy" came from his name :^) Nevertheless, all of your praise made me curious, and I will try to read more Leiber and see if he grows on me.THOMAShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813124910386890089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68429527491120248752010-12-24T15:46:10.066-05:002010-12-24T15:46:10.066-05:00I first read Leiber several years after I started ...I first read Leiber several years after I started playing D&D, and remember thinking "*this* is what D&D is or should be like. Those lame Dragonlance novels don't really come close."Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12096724870715714696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3939256385822298552010-12-24T14:49:03.751-05:002010-12-24T14:49:03.751-05:00Wow - happy 100th, FL, wherever you are.
FWIW, I ...Wow - happy 100th, FL, wherever you are.<br /><br />FWIW, I think that FL's worldbuilding often gets short shrift. I agree that he wasn't into "self-involved sub-creation after the fashion of Tolkien," but one always gets the sense that Nehwon is a vast, rich world of which we are only getting evocative street-level glimpses. It's all the stronger for this restraint/sketchiness. ANd frankly, i don't find his characters remotely 'realistic' - but I do find them FUN. Conan and Frodo are not particularly merry companions to the reader, but F & GM are.<br /><br />I'm intrigued, though, that you paint FL as unsung. I wonder whether this is different if one is asking gaming enthusiasts or fantasy writers. Most fantasy writers I know cite him as an influence, often before Tolkien or Howard. I know that he's been a huge influence on my own work ("Bibliography here," he said self-servingly http://www.saladinahmed.com/wordpress/bibliography/). And some of the better (and better-selling) recent fantasy novels wear his influence on their sleeves - see esp. Scott Lynch's excellent "Lies of Locke Lamora"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55960987095582489102010-12-24T13:36:43.737-05:002010-12-24T13:36:43.737-05:00QUESTION TO LEIBER READERS: is there any particula...<i>QUESTION TO LEIBER READERS: is there any particular collection print run of Leiber's stories that you would recommend I try to pick up? If I were to get all of his stories, I would love for them to have matching bindings.</i><br /><br />The old Ace ppb editions with the white covers, would be a good set to pick up. I have and rather like the SFBC omnibus editions, The Three of Swords and Swords Masters, which collect all six of the books in the original Ace series. Either would be easy to pick up on ebay. <br /><br />White Wolf, I think, put out a series with some sharp looking covers. <br /><br />I've yet to read The Knight & Knave of Swords and hope Akrasia is wrong.:)Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60709630443882577762010-12-24T11:53:40.886-05:002010-12-24T11:53:40.886-05:00As I said, maybe it's the stories I've rea...As I said, maybe it's the stories I've read.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80779937895330361022010-12-24T11:33:23.393-05:002010-12-24T11:33:23.393-05:00Taranaich wrote:
"Incidentally, that's p...Taranaich wrote:<br /><br />"Incidentally, that's part of the reason the Lankhmar stories I've read didn't impress me: they were TOO light and jolly, and so I didn't feel like anything happening in the stories felt real or important. There wasn't any gravitas."<br /><br />I don't agree at all. While some of the stories may appear light and jolly, I think this is more a veneer over the seriousness. Men can make jokes even in the most serious circumstances, and I think the stories reflect that aspect of men.Dave Przybylahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09525935330121423054noreply@blogger.com