tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7664433349684090073..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: D&D/AD&D Product ChronologyJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67400257528972859792022-01-26T13:13:35.423-05:002022-01-26T13:13:35.423-05:00B1 is from 1978.B1 is from 1978.A.F.W Juniorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15868768368133083012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54467378812708555462022-01-15T13:38:19.538-05:002022-01-15T13:38:19.538-05:00The link at top is incorrect. Maybe K&K upgrad...The link at top is incorrect. Maybe K&K upgraded the forum software. The current working link has "phpbb3" in place of "phpbb."<br />https://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=73363#73363Stephen Wendellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16828432713646210247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33360480188984251172009-09-10T21:39:10.474-04:002009-09-10T21:39:10.474-04:00An interesting trends also worth looking at is the...An interesting trends also worth looking at is the length of the modules as they change over time, reflecting, I think, a shift in emphasis from site-based adventures (even when tied together in a loose series) toward story-based scenarios with detailed backgrounds:<br /><br />I list modules by page count then within a single count, alphabetically (and ignore the tourney versions):<br /><br />1978<br />- G1: 8 pages<br />- G2: 8 pages<br />- S1: 12 pages (20 more in illustration booklet; 1981 green version same page counts)<br />- D1: 16 pages<br />- G3: 16 pages<br />- D2: 20 pages<br />- D3: 32 pages<br /><br />1979<br />- S2: 12 pages<br />- T1: 24 pages (16 pages of module, 8 pages of maps; 1981 light green = same)<br />- B1: 32 pages<br /><br />1980<br />- C2 red: 20 pages<br />- A1: 24 pages<br />- B2: 28 pages<br />- X1 blue: 30 pages<br />- C1: 32 pages with 8 page illos booklet<br />- Q1: 32 pages<br />- S3: 32 pages with 36 page illos booklet<br /><br />1981<br />- S1 green: 12 pages (20 more for illustration booklet)<br />- S2 orange: 16 pages<br />- T1 light green: 24 pages<br />- A3: 28 pages<br />- A4: 28 pages<br />- D1-2 blue: 28 pages<br />- D3 blue: 28 pages<br />- I1: 28 pages<br />- L1: 28 pages<br />- X2: 28 pages<br />- B1 brown: 32 pages<br />- B3 orange and green: 32 pages<br />- G1-3 green: 32 pages<br />- U1: 32 pages<br />- A2: 40 pages<br /><br />1982<br />- B4: 28 pages<br />- N1: 28 pages<br />- C1 brown: 32 pages, 8 page illos booklet<br />- I2: 32 pages<br />- I3: 32 pages<br />- U2: 32 pages<br />- S4: 32 pages (2 booklets, each 32 pages; adventure is only in booklet 1 though)<br />- WG4: 32 pages<br />- X3: 32 pages<br /><br />1983<br />- O1: 16 pages (2 booklets, each 16 pages)<br />- B5: 32 pages<br />- EX1: 32 pages<br />- EX2: 32 pages<br />- I4: 32 pages<br />- I5: 32 pages<br />- I6: 32 pages<br />- L2: 32 pages<br />- M1: 32 pages<br />- M2: 32 pages<br />- UK1: 32 pages<br />- UK2: 32 pages<br />- X1 red: 32 pages<br />- X4: 32 pages<br />- X5: 32 pages<br />- U3: 48 pages<br /><br />These then average out to:<br /><br />1978: 16 pages<br />1979: 16.8 pages<br />1980: 26.86 pages<br />1981: 27.73 pages<br />1982: 31.11 pages<br />1983: 32 pages<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83198681038004155452009-09-10T13:28:57.728-04:002009-09-10T13:28:57.728-04:00Delta: "When I turn to OD&D, the one thin...Delta: "When I turn to OD&D, the one thing I sort of cry out for is a unified monster listing including attacks & damage in one place."<br /><br />Judges Guild's Ready Ref Sheets offer such a listing. It'd be interesting to do a comparison with the AD&D MM to see what changed.Tavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08589149850152191198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6342165100677480682009-09-10T11:45:45.752-04:002009-09-10T11:45:45.752-04:00"Last time I checked, the local distributor s..."Last time I checked, the local distributor still had D&D (and Conan) modules from the 80s & 90s!"<br /><br />Ooh, too bad he probably doesn't sell online. I'd buy some of those D&D modules.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57215217802358473242009-09-10T11:42:01.861-04:002009-09-10T11:42:01.861-04:00Thanks for the replies. I have long suspected B/X ...Thanks for the replies. I have long suspected B/X D&D existed for internal political reasons. Continuing to suggest "good" sales as a reason for the line doesn't wash in my experience. Except for the Basic Set which was a gateway to AD&D, the other regular D&D products were not great sellers. Customers would notice there were not AD&D and put them back on the shelf. If they'd had been branded AD&D they would have sold. <br /><br />Last time I checked, the local distributor still had D&D (and Conan) modules from the 80s & 90s!Captain Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10682678777940123469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4789235135926772352009-09-10T08:00:03.184-04:002009-09-10T08:00:03.184-04:00Actually, based on a document Joe The Lawyer poste...Actually, based on a document Joe The Lawyer posted a while back, Arneson did get royalty rights to things like Monster Manual II--he apparently was supposed to get a 2.5% royalty on any D&D product, and the courts ruled AD&D counted as well as D&D, including books that were not written by Arneson. (The court case ruled in favor of Dave Arneson).<br /><br />Check this link out--you need to have an EnWorld account to read the attachment though:<br /><br />http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257927-goodman-rebuttal-3.html#post4835192<br /><br />(I can't say I totally agree with the judgment either--I can see why Gary and Dave had disagreements about the royalties. I think Dave wanted what was fair, but I think Gary felt it wasn't fair for Arneson to get rights to every single derivative product, especially ones Arneson didn't have any input into).<br /><br />So I don't believe "Basic D&D" kept being produced solely to appease royalties. It is interesting to see the 3 successive releases over such a short time period. I guess they really wanted to get the "right version" created. The Metzer version was the most "Stable", lasting until that big boxed set in 1992 or so...JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9966769303991051322009-09-10T07:38:25.776-04:002009-09-10T07:38:25.776-04:00According to the copyright dates and Lawrence Schi...<i>According to the copyright dates and Lawrence Schick's Heroic Worlds: A History and Guide to Role Playing Games, the Moldvay Basic and Cook/Marsh Expert Sets came out in 1980 rather than 1981. Does the author of the list have other information to say it actually came out in 1981?</i><br /><br>This is one of those cases where the stated copyright date is in contradiction to other statements in the very same book. My copy of Moldvay Basic includes the note "First Printing -- January 1981," even though there is other evidence that TSR copyrighted it in 1980.<br /><br />As for the Arneson suits, the settlement terms of those still remain sealed to this day. Whether it'd be possible to open them now that many of the principals are deceased, I don't know. That'd require more legwork than I'm capable of doing at the moment, alas.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57131615247564463552009-09-10T07:27:40.219-04:002009-09-10T07:27:40.219-04:00According to the copyright dates and Lawrence Schi...According to the copyright dates and Lawrence Schick's Heroic Worlds: A History and Guide to Role Playing Games, the Moldvay Basic and Cook/Marsh Expert Sets came out in 1980 rather than 1981. Does the author of the list have other information to say it actually came out in 1981? <br /><br />As for why the D&D and AD&D lines were split, I had read in several sources over the years that the split came about as a result of the Gygax/Arneson dispute over D&D royalties. When Gygax wrote AD&D, Arneson's name was not credited for authorship for the book meaning he wasn't entitled to any money from the publishing of the line. Arneson sued TSR and the continuance of the D&D line was the result whether as part of the settlement or just a way to placate Arneson. Of course, there's a certain amount of speculation to this as the actual settlement between Arneson and TSR was sealed and the parties ordered/agreed not to disclose it. If anyone has any more or less information about this I'd love to hear about it. Sounds like a good investigation, James, to set the record straight.goeticgeekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806200047269447375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21058434676320046562009-09-10T01:42:27.776-04:002009-09-10T01:42:27.776-04:00@John Fletcher: "Let me rephrase my question....@John Fletcher: "Let me rephrase my question. Why, instead of continuing to use the basic set as a vehicle to sell people AD&D (as the Holmes set explicitly stated) did TSR create the parallel D&D line of product?"<br /><br />My understanding is that it was a tactic to avoid paying Dave Arneson royalties. They could assert that the two lines were separate products and therefore only award Arneson with money from the "lesser", non-AD&D line. <br /><br />See here for more, with references (2nd paragraph): <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Arneson#After_TSR" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Arneson#After_TSR</a>Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49852002473725382162009-09-10T00:05:42.243-04:002009-09-10T00:05:42.243-04:00On the topic of "drawing a line", I have...On the topic of "drawing a line", I have to say I really don't have one.<br /><br />I was buying less AD&D by 1988, mostly because I had zero interest in Forgotten Realms, but I bought every one of those Known World Gazetteers and consider them brilliant to this day. <br /><br />The closest I ever came to "drawing a line" with 1e was in 1988 though. Castle Greyhawk seriously pissed me off and almost made me swear off TSR altogether.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4896656189525020152009-09-09T23:42:58.726-04:002009-09-09T23:42:58.726-04:00John: Because those boxed sets sold like gangbuste...John: Because those boxed sets sold like gangbusters. Theoretical confusion is going to lose to actual cash in hand every time.<br /><br />Those boxed sets could be sold in places like Toys R Us and other toy stores, where it was often placed with the boardgames.<br /><br />It was such a huge cash cow they were compelled to continue the line.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13573118671045566042009-09-09T23:32:20.475-04:002009-09-09T23:32:20.475-04:00should be "new AD&D releases".
I...should be "new <b>AD&D</b> releases".<br /><br />I'm having a lot of trouble with my posts today...Captain Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10682678777940123469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1948805464367745662009-09-09T23:28:34.640-04:002009-09-09T23:28:34.640-04:00"John: The Basic D&D box was originally i..."John: The Basic D&D box was originally intended as a starter set to introduce folks to AD&D.<br />But it sold so well, they continued the line."<br /><br />Let me rephrase my question. Why, instead of continuing to use the basic set as a vehicle to sell people AD&D (as the Holmes set explicitly stated) did TSR create the parallel D&D line of product?<br /><br />I know it cost sales and caused confusion because I was retailer in the 80s. D&D modules generally did not sell well whereas new D&D releases did.Captain Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10682678777940123469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69641535328232156162009-09-09T21:12:09.695-04:002009-09-09T21:12:09.695-04:00Chris: "You have to remember, this isn't ...Chris: "You have to remember, this isn't the TSR of the 90's. They were putting out much, much more than D&D during this time period... war games (Tractics, Dawn Patrol, etc.), board games (Divine Right, Dungeon!, etc.), RPGs (Empire of the Petal Throne, Metamorphosis Alpha, Star Frontiers, etc.)."<br /><br />No I was aware of that, not the least of which because I was a huge fan of many of those games.<br /><br />My assumption was that D&D always paid the bills. <br /><br />My basic economic common sense tells me if any of those other game lines had contributed significantly to the bottom line, they would have never been discontinued.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24304080096662781152009-09-09T20:37:08.146-04:002009-09-09T20:37:08.146-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Captain Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10682678777940123469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35764567289017220072009-09-09T19:44:42.585-04:002009-09-09T19:44:42.585-04:00Outdoor Geomorphs?! First I've ever heard of t...Outdoor Geomorphs?! First I've ever heard of them!Blairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884401206802336531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83138317938354056482009-09-09T19:41:09.624-04:002009-09-09T19:41:09.624-04:00Now I can pinpoint the moment I stopped buying pro...Now I can pinpoint the moment I stopped buying product - 1980 - after Barrier Peaks. By then I had moved on toward Traveller and Dragonquest had just been published...groakeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06036495334605477234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1145283948562866522009-09-09T16:01:54.770-04:002009-09-09T16:01:54.770-04:00RPG Objects Chuck said: "I really find the p...RPG Objects Chuck said: "I really find the periods where they were releasing one hardcover a year, along with a boxed set or two, interesting.<br /><br />I'm not sure a company could survive on that type of production schedule.<br /><br />But as someone who thinks about the business of games, its fascinating."<br /><br />You have to remember, this isn't the TSR of the 90's. They were putting out much, much more than D&D during this time period... war games (Tractics, Dawn Patrol, etc.), board games (Divine Right, Dungeon!, etc.), RPGs (Empire of the Petal Throne, Metamorphosis Alpha, Star Frontiers, etc.).<br /><br />D&D probably didn't become a majority of the product they were producing until the mid-80's, and the other games remained a major portion of their product until the early 90's.Chris Tichenorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11866673632888599928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10012933521933240932009-09-09T15:24:22.617-04:002009-09-09T15:24:22.617-04:00"I got all my supplemental material, includin..."I got all my supplemental material, including plenty of modules to run"<br /><br />should have read<br /><br />"I got all my supplemental material, including plenty of modules to run, from the pages of Dragon."Rafialhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077298546098373938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24198961349624795792009-09-09T15:23:05.210-04:002009-09-09T15:23:05.210-04:00@RPGObject_chuck yes exactly, I photocopied the ar...@RPGObject_chuck yes exactly, I photocopied the articles out of Dragon as they came out, and compiled them into a book, and never actually bought UA. But if you had asked me to guess when UA came out before I saw this list, I would have guessed much later than it actually did.<br /><br />Actually, looking over the list now I realize how little stuff I actually bought. I got all my supplemental material, including plenty of modules to run. The last D&D hardback I bought was Fiend Folio, and I think I may have owned all of three separately published modules (B1, which came in my Holmes, S3 because I loved SF, and it was a great taste I totally wanted to get all over my D&D, and X1 because hey, dinosaurs!)<br /><br />That Dragon subscription was my lifeline back in the day.Rafialhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077298546098373938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84226639110615917652009-09-09T14:50:26.321-04:002009-09-09T14:50:26.321-04:00@Al, to be fair, monster/treasure assortments typi...@Al, to be fair, monster/treasure assortments typically require less effort to implement versus a setting or campaign material, yes?Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07997164906328234122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82737998482062214662009-09-09T14:38:17.565-04:002009-09-09T14:38:17.565-04:00Rafial- a lot of the material in Unearthed Arcana ...Rafial- a lot of the material in Unearthed Arcana appeared in Dragon magazine first.<br /><br />So you might have very well been using the Dragon articles, even after the book came out.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21643702011612984052009-09-09T14:13:51.184-04:002009-09-09T14:13:51.184-04:00It's very interesting comparing this timeline ...It's very interesting comparing this timeline to my own remembered timeline, and discovering some discrepancies. Like I can remember playing with a home made book of UA material photocopied out of Dragon magazines as late as 87 or 88, but apparently UA came out 3 years earlier. I suspect I was just broke. And I never even knew there was a MMII for 1e.Rafialhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077298546098373938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23602392071818458902009-09-09T14:03:53.478-04:002009-09-09T14:03:53.478-04:00John: The Basic D&D box was originally intende...John: The Basic D&D box was originally intended as a starter set to introduce folks to AD&D.<br /><br />But it sold so well, they continued the line.<br /><br />So rather than a source of confusion, it was a source of a lot of sales for TSR.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.com