tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7688309242170987605..comments2024-03-28T13:22:07.685-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: 64 Pages of FunJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2781090423892339542009-06-05T09:31:05.012-04:002009-06-05T09:31:05.012-04:00I believe 64 pages is the sweet spot for publishin...I believe 64 pages is the sweet spot for publishing as it's divisible by 16. I might be wrong on this, but for print production, layout is optimal in 16 page spreads. Two online printers I was dealing with would only print this way at least...El Willyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00905016365234891915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41354369174246355482009-06-04T07:15:47.402-04:002009-06-04T07:15:47.402-04:00How bout rthe original Aftermath!
Not one, but THR...How bout rthe original Aftermath!<br />Not one, but THREE books over 64 pages in length. The entire original Twilight 2000 is a basic set by comparison. Love the NPC personality generation system that was based on a deck of playing cards that was featured in Twilight!!!Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45059339413693916502009-06-03T12:13:57.787-04:002009-06-03T12:13:57.787-04:00I'm willing to give a game system a try if it ...I'm willing to give a game system a try if it tops at 250 pages.<br />The Rules Cyclopedia is about that size I think.<br />Anything under 150 pages is more welcome, and if you can do it in 120-130 pages or less it is probably going to be Love.<br />I'm speaking about a fantasy game (with monsters, spells, magic items or at least rules to create them) or a Sci-Fi one (vehicles and starships, Psi, aliens, hi-tech items).artikidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17474295473142339717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-939254601170914112009-06-03T11:07:59.711-04:002009-06-03T11:07:59.711-04:00Setting information is what makes games so big the...Setting information is what makes games so big these days. <br /><br />If you want to have a setting that you can just pick up and run, without doing <i>any</i> work at all you might be hard pressed to get it in there with the rules in 64 pages. EPT is probably a good example of that. <br /><br />Frankly I don't see a problem with that at all. Game books which are 300 pages and <b>all</b> rules is really not myc cuppa, though.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87642916785097558302009-06-02T22:28:08.267-04:002009-06-02T22:28:08.267-04:00My Empire of the Petal Throne rule book (TSR, 1975...My Empire of the Petal Throne rule book (TSR, 1975) clocks in at 114 pages, and that doesn't include 4 additional pages of reference material at the end of the book.Yesmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12574297955275829831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16183187348608603432009-06-02T20:43:12.364-04:002009-06-02T20:43:12.364-04:00I was looking at the 1st ed Gamma World just the o...I was looking at the 1st ed <I>Gamma World</I> just the other day. I had to laugh at the introduction which apologizes for the length of the rules.<br /><br />The times they do change.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53206609580797305062009-06-02T16:38:32.255-04:002009-06-02T16:38:32.255-04:00Personally, I have come to the conclusion with any...Personally, I have come to the conclusion with any future projects I might publish that if I can't say something in 64 digest-sized pages or less, then I'm probably saying too much.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2618696974198077372009-06-02T16:28:32.414-04:002009-06-02T16:28:32.414-04:001st ed. Champions was a 56-page rulebook, which bl...1st ed. Champions was a 56-page rulebook, which bloated up to a whopping 346 by the game's 4th edition.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79224384342800180612009-06-02T16:25:28.276-04:002009-06-02T16:25:28.276-04:00It'd also be interesting to compare rule content v...It'd also be interesting to compare rule content vs. campaign setting stuff in those page counts. Monster stats and magic and equipment and suchlike I guess occupy a middle ground there, but I'd include it as useful parts of the toolkit. <br /><br />However I probably personally wouldn't count the modules often included with box sets in the middle era (like 2nd Ed Gamma World + the Pitz Burke adventure booklet, or Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn + the Volturnus module, or Keep On The Borderlands and Isle of Dread with Moldvay B/X)Then again, you could count their value as prototypes for the GM to base their adventures on, so maybe it IS relevant to page count. <br /><br />I tend to like games that let me take care of the worldbuilding, so my fluff/rules tolerance is pretty sensitive.BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28925249998618898762009-06-02T15:22:34.747-04:002009-06-02T15:22:34.747-04:00I've long had a personal belief that 96 pages ...I've long had a personal belief that 96 pages is the ideal length for a standalone game book, with sufficient room for rules and for inspirational background.<br /><br />That's 96 letter-sized pages... so the OD&D books and the Traveller LBBs fit easily.<br /><br />I'm willing to stretch the rule to, say, a range of 80 to 128 pages. 144 is really pushing it, and anything more is right out.Bob Portnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563075580066984380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86132513048713787442009-06-02T14:45:06.890-04:002009-06-02T14:45:06.890-04:00I'm not sure Call of Cthulhu counts, as the game r...I'm not sure <I>Call of Cthulhu</I> counts, as the game rules only take up about twenty pages, even in the more recent editions.<br /><br />The first rpg I owned was <I>Traveller: The New Era</I>, which was about three-hundred pages and it was all rules, more or less. Not the best one to start GMing with, although that said, it did give you everything you needed in one book.<br /><br />The first edition of <I>Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay</I> certainly looked massive, but I'm not sure how big it actually was in hindsight.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59697203132958466982009-06-02T14:36:23.451-04:002009-06-02T14:36:23.451-04:00I've left the multi-volume, 600+ core rule game be...I've left the multi-volume, 600+ core rule game behind. (Well, I'll always have 1e... But other than that...)<br /><br />If you can't give me your rules in 120 or fewer pages, you've got too much stuff in there.<br /><br />The density of the original boxed set or the '81 Basic plus Expert rules is perfect for me.<br /><br />I picked up Lords of Creation from my FLGS this weekend. Two 64 page books. One with rules, advice, and setting suggestions. The other with around 450 monsters and npcs. As far as I'm concerned, that's about as perfect as it gets.Chris Tichenorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11866673632888599928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39765975949407542932009-06-02T14:35:21.944-04:002009-06-02T14:35:21.944-04:00A lot of games did and do include setting info. A...A lot of games did and do include setting info. And that’s part of their purpose- they’re not trying to be a generic system. <br /><br />Off topic: James, I can’t view the comments on the More Than a Feeling post anymore. Is something wrong?<br /><br />verification: "bless". Nice!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18748333696109439882009-06-02T13:56:07.989-04:002009-06-02T13:56:07.989-04:00But the rules of EPT were short. The setting just ...But the rules of EPT were short. The setting just needed a lot of explanation because it is one of the most otherworldly game setting ever. Even humanity has a completely different way of thinking, how their very minds think, reason and react.Santiago Oríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004778441776946649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-879479302615263682009-06-02T13:55:24.136-04:002009-06-02T13:55:24.136-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Santiago Oríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004778441776946649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75567925588130834142009-06-02T13:49:18.120-04:002009-06-02T13:49:18.120-04:00EPT was 114 pages long, actually, but the point st...EPT was 114 pages long, actually, but the point stands.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41466074801365192012009-06-02T13:45:00.455-04:002009-06-02T13:45:00.455-04:00And today, sometimes the high page count is market...And today, sometimes the high page count is marketed as something necessarily good.Santiago Oríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004778441776946649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62498424036582082162009-06-02T13:44:43.698-04:002009-06-02T13:44:43.698-04:00I have a first edition of Champions; I'll check wh...I have a first edition of <I>Champions</I>; I'll check when I get home tonight and let you know. I know the second edition was 80 pages (including the 8 character sheets in the middle).<br /><br />But <I>Empire of the Petal Throne</I> was around 112 or so, wasn't it?Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13422246517195316102009-06-02T13:32:38.158-04:002009-06-02T13:32:38.158-04:00I can't help you on Champions, but IIRC RuneQuest ...I can't help you on Champions, but IIRC RuneQuest 2e (1980) was 120 pages. CoC 2e (1981) was 96 pages, but the 3e h/c version was 192 pages. Rolemaster (1e or 2e, not sure which I have here) was hundreds of pages across several booklets. Paranoia 1e (1984) was 2 rules booklets (player 24 pages, ref 64 pages). Thieves Guild 2e (1984) rules were 32 and 40 pages (character generation and ref rules). WFRP 1e hardcover (1986) was 368 pages. <br /><br />I'll have to go digging for some older systems, but every by the early '80s, rules bloat had clearly set in ;)<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22566414453853802472009-06-02T13:24:30.116-04:002009-06-02T13:24:30.116-04:00It was the pre-glossy era though wasn't it? They w...It was the pre-glossy era though wasn't it? They weren't selling games based upon the beauty of the books so form was all.<br /><br />I've got the Warhammer 3rd Edition hardback at home (wargames rules but the point still holds) and that has an infamous double-page spread of artwork, most of which is just stock GW artwork from box lids and the like with just one single paragraph on a spell description which is not actually the full spell description since it starts on the previous double spread and ends on the next!<br /><br />Older games tended to use tables a lot, which carry a lot of information in a relatively concise area but sadly somewhere along the line it was decided that tables scare people off and we went over to table-free rules where exactly the same data was included but in difficult-to-parse prose.<br /><br />Another important point is that not many older games carried any setting descriptions with them - and the modern mania for setting fetishism that describes it's setting in such minute detail as to ensure that there is no room for personal invention and your campaign will be exactly the same as everyone elses (the dreaded meta-plot that I spit upon from a great height) means that these are massive and indeed massively bloat the page count.<br /><br />I can remember a period in the 90s, which might not actually have gone away, where RPGs were sold as settings with a ruleset that either didn't work at all or you were expected to just use GURPS or something.Coopdevilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219253658967958289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35284416608079757292009-06-02T13:22:08.001-04:002009-06-02T13:22:08.001-04:00I think that first edition of Champs was just a bi...I think that first edition of Champs was just a bit bigger than Gamma World (which I think was just a bit bigger than Metamorphosis Alpha). I think the only reason I was using the bigger Champs rules in the 90's was the slow growth of it's rulesbook allowed me to learn the ins and outs without cramming. <br /><br />As a teen I recall marvelling at the size of the content of C&S, so that might have been the biggest rulesbook of it's time.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13364400249077579052009-06-02T13:17:52.467-04:002009-06-02T13:17:52.467-04:00Excluding AD&D, the first REALLY LONG RPG book...Excluding AD&D, the first REALLY LONG RPG book I saw was "James Bond 007" in 1983. It was 160 pages I think.<br /><br />My friends and I enjoyed looking through the 007 books, but we actually PLAYED Top Secret when we wanted that particular genre. Similarly, we also liked looking through the AD&D books, but we actually PLAYED Basic / Expert D&D.<br /><br />I also had a Call of Cthulhu boxed set around 83-84, but the booklets that came with it were shortish. I don't know if they were over or under 64 pages.Bob Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073807225519106277noreply@blogger.com