tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7781885918429011093..comments2024-03-19T07:56:00.031-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Blue Book, Cover to Cover (Part I)James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41502282317072843762010-07-12T18:22:56.153-04:002010-07-12T18:22:56.153-04:00And, hey, this is the first time I have posted a r...<i>And, hey, this is the first time I have posted a response, but I have been following the blog for a log time, and I just wanted to thank you for such a great read. I actually cut my teeth on AD&D (so a lot of the OD&D stuff is a little over my head) and I am not sure I share some of the gaming sensibilities that a lot of the old school "grognards" seem to espouse, but, even so, I always find your posts fascinating and thought-provoking. Yours is one of the few gaming fan sites that I visit without fail every day.</i><br /><br>You're very kind to say this. Thank you. It really means a great deal to me.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32920896690785868412010-07-12T11:47:13.550-04:002010-07-12T11:47:13.550-04:00I will always love the Trampier PHB cover more bec...I will always love the Trampier PHB cover more because parts of the Holmes cover (in particular the areas of grey stone behind the dragon's head) are somewhat lacking in the execution (amateur painter talking here). <br />But the Sutherland cover of the Holmes box was my first introduction to D&D and just screams "Open this box and play me!"Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76780835717847888582010-07-11T23:49:07.656-04:002010-07-11T23:49:07.656-04:00It's a funny thing, isn't it? I've not...<i>It's a funny thing, isn't it? I've noted before that I rarely use dragons myself and don't actually like them much as opponents.</i><br /><br />One of the favorite campaigns I participated in as a player (as opposed to GM) had a dragon as its master villain.<br /><br />The dragon was a highly intelligent spell user and spent much of its time polymorphed into human form (we didn't have any clue for most of the campaign that our archenemy was actually a dragon), engaging in all sorts of evil behind-the-scenes political machinations (partnered with the local undead necromancer).<br /><br />The most jaw-dropping moment came when we realized that one of the party members, a PC magic user whose player had dropped and allowed the GM to use his character as a NPC who made occasional guest appearances, was actually the dragon in disguise. The real PC had been slain months earlier and the dragon had infiltrated the party in his form. It suddenly made sense that our unseen foe always seemed 1 step ahead of us, no matter what plans we made (to be fair, we realized with hindsight that the DM had dropped plenty of clues that something very hinky was going on with the character).<br /><br />Finally putting down that dragon remains one of my fondest gaming memories.<br /><br />And, yeah, up until that campaign I had never had a lot of use for dragons as a DM, but, after playing through it, I developed a whole new respect for their potential.<br /><br /><i>Gygax commented more than once that the name chosen for the game was only one of several considered and it was only because one of his daughters liked Dungeons & Dragons that he went with it. I wonder what the other names might have been?</i><br /><br /><i>Mazes & Monsters</i>, maybe? =)<br /><br />And, hey, this is the first time I have posted a response, but I have been following the blog for a log time, and I just wanted to thank you for such a great read. I actually cut my teeth on AD&D (so a lot of the OD&D stuff is a little over my head) and I am not sure I share some of the gaming sensibilities that a lot of the old school "grognards" seem to espouse, but, even so, I always find your posts fascinating and thought-provoking. Yours is one of the few gaming fan sites that I visit without fail every day.80sGamerGeekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09273165960058841668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13442882007338860902010-07-11T18:14:21.715-04:002010-07-11T18:14:21.715-04:00I wonder where the conical wizard hat originated?I wonder where the conical wizard hat originated?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13532063948884732421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44126329075255138892010-07-11T17:26:35.033-04:002010-07-11T17:26:35.033-04:00And I would have to humbly point out that it's...<i>And I would have to humbly point out that it's not "implied", it's explicitly stated these many times: AD&D is the most common reference, with the greatest emphasis, in the most important locations, throughout the Holmes blue book.</i><br /><br />And on the surface of it, it would certainly appear that Holmes was <b>written</b> to lead the newbie to AD&D, but as I said above, a study of the history and facts surrounding the production of the Holmes rule set show otherwise. Painting black stripes on a white horse doesn't make it a zebra.<br /><br /><i>The text never refers the reader back to the LBBs or Supplements, but frequently suggests turning to AD&D for fuller treatments of topics.</i><br /><br />Which is because when Holmes wrote the manuscript there was no AD&D, just D&D, to which there are actually 10 references (one more than the references to AD&D).<br /><br /><i>Now, I think we can all likely agree that these references were inserted by Gygax or someone at TSR rather than being original to Holmes</i><br /><br />Gary himself inferred this to be the case, saying he had to make a decision, point customers back to OD&D, or point them towards the as yet unfinished AD&D - he chose the latter, which of course was a smart move. <br /><br /><i>...but their presence does explain why lots of people -- and I was one of them during my youth -- saw Holmes as "Basic Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" rather than anything else.</i><br /><br />Yes it does, and I too was one of those youths that believed so. History though, has proved otherwise. Not that it matters of course since Holmes, while not seamlessly compatible with either OD&D or AD&D, is still nevertheless easily compatible with both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60706414528070764722010-07-11T13:58:37.856-04:002010-07-11T13:58:37.856-04:00Like many others who started with Holmes, I took t...<i>Like many others who started with Holmes, I took the text at face value and used it as a starter kit for AD&D.</i><br /><br>Oh, I did too, but mostly because, at the time, I'd never seen the LBBs, let alone read them, so I couldn't see how much more consonant with OD&D Holmes is than with <i>AD&D</i>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59297452626980693152010-07-11T13:49:07.418-04:002010-07-11T13:49:07.418-04:00For a game called "Dungeons & Dragons&quo...<i>For a game called "Dungeons & Dragons", I can't remember very many published adventures that had a dragon as the biggest encounter. I have an easier time thinking of dark magicians or undead than dragon centered dungeons.</i><br /><br>It's a funny thing, isn't it? I've noted before that I rarely use dragons myself and don't actually like them much as opponents. Gygax commented more than once that the name chosen for the game was only one of several considered and it was only because one of his daughters liked <i>Dungeons & Dragons</i> that he went with it. I wonder what the other names might have been?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33237086682261432822010-07-11T13:47:09.114-04:002010-07-11T13:47:09.114-04:00And I would have to humbly point out that it's...<i>And I would have to humbly point out that it's not "implied", it's explicitly stated these many times: AD&D is the most common reference, with the greatest emphasis, in the most important locations, throughout the Holmes blue book.</i><br /><br>While I am strongly in the camp that interprets Holmes as being an introduction to OD&D, there's no question that, <i>as written</i>, it self-identifies as an intro to <i>AD&D</i>. The text never refers the reader back to the LBBs or Supplements, but frequently suggests turning to <i>AD&D</i> for fuller treatments of topics. Now, I think we can all likely agree that these references were inserted by Gygax or someone at TSR rather than being original to Holmes, but their presence does explain why lots of people -- and I was one of them during my youth -- saw Holmes as "Basic Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" rather than anything else.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15743417720066502392010-07-11T13:06:11.153-04:002010-07-11T13:06:11.153-04:00I wish I had a good image of the UK Holmes cover, ...<i>I wish I had a good image of the UK Holmes cover, but I've only ever seen very dark and blurry scans of it.</i><br /><br />I noticed the art looks very similar to one of the illustrations in the back of the <i>Fiend Folio</i>. The fighter and magic-user are the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50478491160859200772010-07-11T13:03:47.029-04:002010-07-11T13:03:47.029-04:00I submit that Holmes and the Monster Manual fit ha...I submit that Holmes and the <i>Monster Manual</i> fit hand in glove at <b>least</b> as well as the PHB and DMG do. <br /><br />The MM uses the 9> armor class scale and the 5-point alignment system just like Holmes. <br /><br />Like many others who started with Holmes, I took the text at face value and used it as a starter kit for AD&D. I don't really care that EGG claimed that this was not what the Holmes Edition was intended for since (a) it's contradicted in black and white in the pages of the book and (b) much of what EGG said in retrospect was sprinkled with BS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5598606679402099842010-07-11T11:44:20.723-04:002010-07-11T11:44:20.723-04:00I was mulling this post over and had a tangential ...I was mulling this post over and had a tangential realization. For a game called "Dungeons & Dragons", I can't remember very many published adventures that had a dragon as the biggest encounter. I have an easier time thinking of dark magicians or undead than dragon centered dungeons. <br /><br />It seems odd, now that I think about it.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116795932377593506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44568823006530461472010-07-11T11:21:43.445-04:002010-07-11T11:21:43.445-04:00"Having made a bit of a study of the subject,..."Having made a bit of a study of the subject, I myself dismiss the AD&D references totally."<br /><br />I think my point (and I believe James took it this way) is that the same can't be expected of the many people who received a Holmes D&D box, and had that text alone with which to learn and judge the game. <br /><br />Even James on Jul-8 wrote: "A lot of people tend to view the Holmes rulebook as a an introduction to AD&D, a position the rulebook itself seems to imply at various point..."<br /><br />And I would have to humbly point out that it's not "implied", it's explicitly stated these many times: AD&D is the most common reference, with the greatest emphasis, in the most important locations, throughout the Holmes blue book.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26149252190054057012010-07-11T08:43:50.536-04:002010-07-11T08:43:50.536-04:00It's hard to get over...the phrase "ADVAN...<i>It's hard to get over...the phrase "ADVANCED DUNGEON & DRAGONS" (4 times).</i> <br /><br />9 times in total throughout the whole book in fact. Having made a bit of a study of the subject, I myself dismiss the AD&D references totally. <br /><br />It's an interesting exercise to follow what is said about the Holmes rulebook by both Holmes and Gygax over the period of it first being announced till several years after it was printed. During this period it went from being an edited version of the 3LB's + Greyhawk, intended as an introduction to the Original version of D&D; to being a possible introduction to either OD&D or AD&D; and finally to be seen by most as an introduction to AD&D. This evolution of intention makes perfect sense from a marketing perspective but, nine AD&D references aside, it doesn't change the fact that Holmes is an edited version of OD&D with a few pure Holmes twists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88433406774806319542010-07-11T08:29:26.914-04:002010-07-11T08:29:26.914-04:00It's hard to get over the fact that if you qui...<i>It's hard to get over the fact that if you quickly scan pages 2-7 (including the Preface you mention) the only thing in all-caps-italic-boldface is the phrase "ADVANCED DUNGEON & DRAGONS" (4 times).</i><br /><br>I suppose that's true. I sort of tune it out nowadays and it becomes less and less apparent when you're reading the text closely, but it's a good point nonetheless.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33344684339693571102010-07-11T00:48:16.393-04:002010-07-11T00:48:16.393-04:00It's hard to get over the fact that if you qui...It's hard to get over the fact that if you quickly scan pages 2-7 (including the Preface you mention) the only thing in all-caps-italic-boldface is the phrase "ADVANCED DUNGEON & DRAGONS" (4 times).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46607149509242077972010-07-10T20:00:24.798-04:002010-07-10T20:00:24.798-04:00This was never one of my favorite covers, but like...This was never one of my favorite covers, but like you I prefer the historical groundedness of the art. The "punk Ren-Faire" look of more recent art has rarely appealed to me.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11412520673809397382010-07-10T19:14:37.824-04:002010-07-10T19:14:37.824-04:00[edit] Ah, I see you mention it in a previous entr...[edit] Ah, I see you mention it in a previous entry. Hard to keep track of all of your posts. ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70485654943340160122010-07-10T19:05:11.078-04:002010-07-10T19:05:11.078-04:00Have you read the interview with Holmes in Dragon ...Have you read the interview with Holmes in <i>Dragon</i> #52? It was written for the release of the Moldvay edition, but contains some interesting titbits.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86598283301913577832010-07-10T18:45:22.448-04:002010-07-10T18:45:22.448-04:00I wish I had a good image of the UK Holmes cover, ...<i>I wish I had a good image of the UK Holmes cover, but I've only ever seen very dark and blurry scans of it.</i><br /><br />The UK cover illustration has a silver metallic sheen, which makes it difficult to scan. There is a thread on DF that has scans of all the images in the UK version, including a scan of the cover pic that's clear enough to allow a decent look at it.<br /><br />http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20401&highlight=holmesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29538440842022006552010-07-10T14:34:01.541-04:002010-07-10T14:34:01.541-04:00Patrick,
Good suggestion!Patrick,<br /><br />Good suggestion!James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31229611779924021422010-07-10T14:33:52.532-04:002010-07-10T14:33:52.532-04:00Sean,
I wish I had a good image of the UK Holmes ...Sean,<br /><br />I wish I had a good image of the UK Holmes cover, but I've only ever seen very dark and blurry scans of it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70778039103528299282010-07-10T13:19:02.297-04:002010-07-10T13:19:02.297-04:00I'd be hard-pressed to decide whether I like t...I'd be hard-pressed to decide whether I like the Holmes cover or the PHB cover better, but having started with Holmes, that cover illustration was my first, visceral, impression of what D&D was; I will always love it.<br /><br />I think this scene also implies the necessity of planning one's expeditions carefully. The adventurers don't look like they've just opened a door and stumbled upon a dragon. They have come for this treasure hoard. They look like they have a plan and are <i>prepared</i> to fight a dragon. The dragon, on the other hand, looks like he was caught unawares.Sean Robsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16429301144221551751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14556160659356685132010-07-10T12:29:45.423-04:002010-07-10T12:29:45.423-04:00You should include a picture of the cover since yo...You should include a picture of the cover since you are discussing it.Patrick Tinglerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10648268809648664401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55892916947864620792010-07-10T10:20:43.227-04:002010-07-10T10:20:43.227-04:00I agree with your interpretation of the quotation ...I agree with your interpretation of the quotation regarding open-ended gaming; I don't really see what else Holmes could be getting at, and I was pleased to see this passage when I got out my own copy of Holmes recently.<br /><br />I wanted to add that I'm really looking forward to more posts in this series; I think the discussion will be very useful, and I'm sure it will be fascinating.John Harper Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17592827787099084705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72075942046834670832010-07-10T09:54:13.247-04:002010-07-10T09:54:13.247-04:00I like the simplicity of the cover, but have alwa...I like the simplicity of the cover, but have always prefereed the UK version as it just seems more dynamic, mysterious and grim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com