tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7838360497869865027..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Strangers in Strange LandsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65784786218510641502022-01-07T16:32:17.119-05:002022-01-07T16:32:17.119-05:00I wouldn't be bandying Donaldson's Thomas ...I wouldn't be bandying Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books around too much - they are terrible things full of whining and angst...Myceniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08953750748303074391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51231344161093085682010-10-12T11:41:51.492-04:002010-10-12T11:41:51.492-04:00Don't forget "A Connecticut Yankee in Kin...Don't forget "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" ;-)Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88303694194910462462010-10-09T15:33:53.496-04:002010-10-09T15:33:53.496-04:00Maybe this is just the difference between growing ...Maybe this is just the difference between growing up with <i>Myst</i> and <i>Narnia</i> instead of <i>Dragon Prophecy of Doom</i> or whatever, but worlds that don't give some sort of hint to their relationship with <b>our</b> world, be they other places, other times, other dimensions or some nebulous dream-state feel a little weird to me.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28213280976866880242010-10-09T00:39:08.451-04:002010-10-09T00:39:08.451-04:00I think that, for some people, such explicit conta...I think that, for some people, such explicit contact between the real world and the fantasy world wakes up some subconscious, nitpicky questions that they could otherwise ignore. I suspect that’s part of what makes them uneasy about it.<br /><br />Personally, I found the transitions of John Carter and Holger Carlson to their respective unconventional worlds awfully lame. ^_^<br /><br />The word “arbitrary” has come up again. I think it is perfectly OK if the lines we draw for our games are arbitrary. More likely, though, I think the key word in “seem fairly arbitrary” is “seem”. More often than not, I’ve learned that what seemed arbitrary to me actually wasn’t.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33659597390524069662010-10-08T11:55:36.867-04:002010-10-08T11:55:36.867-04:00Thinking about it, a modern accountant or other &#...Thinking about it, a modern accountant or other 'normal man' type would be much bigger and stronger than the people in an ancient or medieval technology world, and would probably look better; for example they'd probably have all their teeth. They'd also have useful knowledge like knowing about germs and good nutrition. However this contradicts the way we usually think about these worlds.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90559675404297567002010-10-08T02:23:49.977-04:002010-10-08T02:23:49.977-04:00I think D&D can certainly handle closed worlds...I think D&D can certainly handle closed worlds and open worlds. You see both in the source material.<br /><br />Pure Tolkienesque high fantasy arguably requires a closed world, though you can do similar good vs evil themes in an open world - compare Middle Earth to Narnia. The Narnia books have a good deal of inter-dimensional travel, most notably in The Wizard's Nephew.<br /><br />Doing Conan with the themes inherent in REH's original (modernist low fantasy) requires a closed world, albeit allowing references to eg the Cthulu Mythos. But Marvel uses Conan for open-world power fantasy, with time travel et al.<br /><br />Since 2008 I've been running a closed-world high-ish fantasy D&D campaign set in a kind of dark ages SW Europe; the themes from CS Lewis and The Song of Roland work better in a closed world.<br /><br />By contrast I'm also running a very open-world Wilderlands D&D campaign; Wilderlands is brilliant for planetary romance and there are several Stranger PCs and NPCs, mostly physicists from an alternate Earth where CHER (a CERN-type project) went horribly wrong.<br /><br />I think 4e D&D is the first edition I've seen where the themes and tropes explicitly promote a closed-world approach; but of course the rules still work fine for an open-world setting.<br /><br />Neither approach is badwrongfun; both have their uses and are appropriate for different settings and campaigns.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74161519198753418242010-10-07T20:54:28.610-04:002010-10-07T20:54:28.610-04:00I must confess I missed this story.
Oh, you reall...<i>I must confess I missed this story.</i><br /><br />Oh, you really need to read TSOL. Besides the scope being a bit larger than some of the other stories (TSOL being the only full-length novel concerning Fafhrd and the Mouser), the sequence where a magically-shrunken Mouser infiltrates the Rat Kingdom below the streets of Lankhmar is alone worth the price of admission.Knightskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08397391662639446678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84189122127808058532010-10-07T20:15:32.300-04:002010-10-07T20:15:32.300-04:00My earlier post referred to whether your blogging ...<i>My earlier post referred to whether your blogging and gaming have become so intertwined so as your game planning (sandbox discussion aside) is affected by your efforts at Grognardia.</i><br /><br>Oh, I see now.<br /><br />To a great extent, the two have always been intertwined. I began the campaign largely as an experiment, to see if I enjoyed playing OD&D as much as I enjoyed reading and talking about it. Necessarily, a lot of things that go on in the campaign are the result of thoughts I've posted here or discussions I've had via the comments to them. However, the campaign has very much taken on a life of its own and it's not merely an extension of the blog. I doubt it would have lasted as long as it has if that's all that it were.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2957860552798105262010-10-07T20:09:17.639-04:002010-10-07T20:09:17.639-04:00I've enjoyed reading your blog for a while now...I've enjoyed reading your blog for a while now and would love to be lucky enough to have you for a referee. My earlier post referred to whether your blogging and gaming have become so intertwined so as your game planning (sandbox discussion aside) is affected by your efforts at Grognardia.Digital Orchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00276516390269689741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80608939013908881042010-10-07T20:01:50.118-04:002010-10-07T20:01:50.118-04:00The time-traveler Karl Treuherz shows up briefly i...<i>The time-traveler Karl Treuherz shows up briefly in chapter 3 of "The Swords of Lankhmar."</i><br /><br>I must confess I missed this story. My collection of Lankhmar stories ends with <i>Swords Against Wizardry</i>, so my reading of the stories after that point is spotty at best. I guess I must correct this.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68079059147981163352010-10-07T19:57:21.964-04:002010-10-07T19:57:21.964-04:00Tolkien never ceased to treat Middle-earth as a “f...<i>Tolkien never ceased to treat Middle-earth as a “fictional time” rather than a “fictional place.” This should be clear from the ending of The Lord of the Rings (the Age of Men arrives, magic and elves fade), or the beginning of The Hobbit (Hobbits are around, you just don’t see them because you are loud and clumsy).</i><br /><br>That was my recollection as well, but, as I said, I'm not really up on the latest Tolkien scholarship, so I can believe there are nuances I've missed or misunderstood.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19299168701497261902010-10-07T19:05:38.565-04:002010-10-07T19:05:38.565-04:00@ Coldstream;
Understood, I'm sorry if i seem ...@ Coldstream;<br />Understood, I'm sorry if i seem a little combative.<br />Now, if we were talking about using the accountant in real life, it probably would not be any more or less sensible than the random scientists, but, well, we're not. We're talking a about a fantasy game. Fighters tend to be badasses regardless of their background. The common idea is that in a traditional style game they are right off the farm or something- not really any more or less ready for adventure than the random accountant or physicist. However, not all such travelers are warriors. Dorothy, for instance, is just a modern age farmgirl and she does alright for herself, same thing withe Narnia kids.<br />Personally, though, my favorite example of this sort of thing is Richard Corben's Den, he's a scrawny high school age nerd before he makes the transit to Neverwhere- it's the crazy psychedelic transition itself that turns him into a over endowed badass.<br />Anyway, I don't see any of these choices (High Fantasy, S&S, Planetary Romance) as limitations, really, or as mutually exclusive optionsAoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17308636089205051842010-10-07T19:02:42.015-04:002010-10-07T19:02:42.015-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36111127207967346292010-10-07T19:00:27.312-04:002010-10-07T19:00:27.312-04:00I don't believe I remember this story. Is it i...<i>I don't believe I remember this story. Is it in one of the later Nehwon collections? </i><br /><br />The time-traveler Karl Treuherz shows up briefly in chapter 3 of "The Swords of Lankhmar." He also got the cover shot on some of the older printings of TSOL:<br /><br />http://scrollsoflankhmar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/swords-of-lankhmar-jeff-jones-cover.jpgKnightskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08397391662639446678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59712077719378452932010-10-07T17:36:14.414-04:002010-10-07T17:36:14.414-04:00Tolkien never ceased to treat Middle-earth as a “f...Tolkien never ceased to treat Middle-earth as a “fictional time” rather than a “fictional place.” This should be clear from the ending of <i>The Lord of the Rings</i> (the Age of Men arrives, magic and elves fade), or the beginning of <i>The Hobbit</i> (Hobbits are around, you just don’t see them because you are loud and clumsy).<br /><br />It is true that his earliest writings dealt more with Ælfwine the Mariner who learns the ancient Elvish Tales and goes on to father Hengest and Horsa, legendary Anglo-Saxons who brought their people to Britain. I don’t think you can prove that he ever “abandoned” this concept in general. Indeed, while he never rewrote these stories, he continued to refer to Ælfwine even in his last writings. —FalconerFalconerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00474925985191663745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90220755731178070632010-10-07T17:20:16.135-04:002010-10-07T17:20:16.135-04:00You might say that fantasy no longer regularly has...<i>You might say that fantasy no longer regularly has visitors from Earth, but that's only true of fantasy in the narrow "Terry Brooks and David Eddings" sense: books written by and for members of a subculture, and largely based on D&D.</i><br /><br>True enough. It's interesting too that, though <i>D&D</i> was, to varying degrees inspired by "man out of time" fantasy stories, it in turn has probably contributed to the downplaying of that approach within the types of fantasy literature it has inspired.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53018576147445504752010-10-07T17:19:14.001-04:002010-10-07T17:19:14.001-04:00Sorry if any of my comments have come across as co...Sorry if any of my comments have come across as contempt or attacks of adding a contemporary character into a game. I didn't mean it as such, just that I wouldn't choose to do so and tried to give some reasons why. If everyone agreed with everything around here, we could farm out postings and comment streams to one person and save everyone time.<br /><br />I agree with what you're saying when it comes to Trek and Wars and how it's anachronistic within the context of Star War. In Trek it's at least an acknowledgement of the past within the world, but I still find it boring...a whole universe to explore with planets, races, untold numbers of wonders and let's have stories dealing with 1940's American gangsters. Have there been no other interesting events in-world over the last 300 years? But that's probably more of a criticism of lazy writers of the series.<br /><br />Sure an accountant is boring in our world (no offense to CPA's out there) unless you're running a great game of Papers and Paychecks. I guess though I don't see how much different it is dropping an accountant in the middle of Castle Greyhawk than it would be a random scientist. Both are number crunchers, both jobs would probably bore the average person to tears, both would be complete fish-out-water. But the scientist is seen as a great option, but an accountant ridiculous in a FRPG.<br /><br />It stems from what we choose to use to limit our games. Some like high-fantasy, others look for inspiration in ERB-styled games, and some have no real limits...and then we end up with RIFTS and we're all screwed.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3590040948738008142010-10-07T17:12:32.559-04:002010-10-07T17:12:32.559-04:00Actually, Tolkien abandoned this idea as his legen...<i>Actually, Tolkien abandoned this idea as his legendarium evolved. It's true that he did think this way for a while.</i><br /><br>He did? Well, that's news to me then, but I'm no Tolkien scholar. Where does he talk about this? You have piqued my interest.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81816043822766820722010-10-07T17:10:36.583-04:002010-10-07T17:10:36.583-04:00You seemed prepared for this. How much of this sto...<i>You seemed prepared for this. How much of this story is for the pc's and how much is for you to illustrate a point for your readers? Also, is inspiration, however vague, cause for replication (in your Gygax reference)?</i><br /><br>I have no idea what you're asking here. Care to elaborate?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32911724466998469132010-10-07T17:09:40.164-04:002010-10-07T17:09:40.164-04:00She hasn't yet formed an image what fantasy or...<i>She hasn't yet formed an image what fantasy or roleplaying "ought to be" and it's great.</i><br /><br>My children are much the same way and I sometimes envy them.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50750404754445979462010-10-07T17:08:57.179-04:002010-10-07T17:08:57.179-04:00James, since your campaign obviously borrows a lot...<i>James, since your campaign obviously borrows a lot from ERB, are there radium guns and hoverships in Dwimmermount?</i><br /><br>Not yet, although the Eld do use strange "wands" that are, more or less, radium guns.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30661285361133994242010-10-07T17:08:08.532-04:002010-10-07T17:08:08.532-04:00Well, as I'm sure you know, I think it's a...<i>Well, as I'm sure you know, I think it's a great idea, and like you I've already made a character class for it: the Outsider</i><br /><br>Oh, I like that one!James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-803265363142966192010-10-07T17:07:23.530-04:002010-10-07T17:07:23.530-04:00And the reverse occurs when, IIRC, a German time-t...<i>And the reverse occurs when, IIRC, a German time-traveler briefly shows up in Newhon, and has an extended discussion with Fafhrd and the Mouser.</i><br /><br>I don't believe I remember this story. Is it in one of the later Nehwon collections?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91062004000371145092010-10-07T16:25:45.499-04:002010-10-07T16:25:45.499-04:00An accountant is not so much ridiculous as it is b...An accountant is not so much ridiculous as it is boring- which in the context of a FRPG makes it ridiculous. The closed system High Fantasy equivalent would be to play the cooper or the shoe maker. Why would anyone want to play such a character? None of these are real worlds, playing an elf is no more or less sensible than playing a robot. Playing a car salesman or the guy who makes horseshoes are the same thing too, but who cares?<br /><br />I don't have an issue with keeping the game world closed or whatever you want, and I certainly don't have contempt for it. However, your posts have not seemed to defend that point (which in truth requires no defense); they have been attacks on doing it the other way. <br />I notice you fail to address my points in regards to your comparisons with ST and SW. Instead you shift the goal posts over to the whole point behind the Stranger. <br />Obviously I was a little confused about the nature of the conversation. <br />If someone says they have contempt for the way you are doing things, perhaps you should address them directly instead of conflating contextually sound planetary romance with postmodern disasters like "Phantom Menace." Such a comparison is in and of itself an expression of contempt if ever there was one.<br />All done now.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10232714394614978692010-10-07T15:38:38.846-04:002010-10-07T15:38:38.846-04:00@Aos
Really what I'm trying to get at is it s...@Aos<br /><br />Really what I'm trying to get at is it seems fairly arbitrary where we draw the line when it comes to what is acceptable and what isn't. Some of us, myself included, tend to run closed-systems with little to no time/dimensional/interplanetary travel for our D&D games...call it high-fantasy or whatever. Some commentors have disparaged that idea, even suggesting contempt, stating that anything can go in D&D.<br /><br />At the same time, there seems to be a clear line that Strangers have to be some sort of immortal John Carteresque ubermensch or polo-playing, Ivy-leaguer Flash Gordons who always become the superior native (we even see that in Avatar today). You found the CPA example ridiculous, and it really was meant to be...but in my opinion not much moreso than the QB of the New York Jets or some PhD in physics (not a group stereotypically known for their martial prowess)ending up in a magical world contending with vaguely Chinese tyrants or displacer beasts and whatnot. Why is one ridiculous and the other not?<br /><br />I know the point to the Stranger class and its trappings are to try to capture the feel of the old pulp Sword and Planet fiction of the past and that's fine. It works for some gamers and not others, which is really the point to creating one's own gaming world. <br /><br />I guess what I'm getting at here is that some tend to disparage one group for preferring to limit worlds and games to self-contained settings as being some sort of slave to high-fantasy, but at the same time seem to limit their own worlds and games to the standards set in ERB inspired pulp fantasy...which is what makes an accountant ridiculous but a physicist or psychologist not.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.com