tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8018238660978190019..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: In Praise of Larry ElmoreJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78091505118558532262020-12-10T07:13:57.892-05:002020-12-10T07:13:57.892-05:00I think you are on to something!
Yet, I do like R...I think you are on to something!<br /><br />Yet, I do like Ross' humanization of super-heroes. It was an eye-opener when he first did "Marvels". It was (and still is) very 1950/60's in a way. Refreshing after all the excesses of of comic art in the 1990's and 2000's --- the heavy Anime influence.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40538540683856028442009-01-21T12:19:00.000-05:002009-01-21T12:19:00.000-05:00Again, I think it all depends when you enter the g...Again, I think it all depends when you enter the game. I entered the game in the Silver Age or late Golden Age (circa 1981/82). Therefore, Larry's art does define what I considered pleasurable. Part of the appeal of RPGs is the escape factor...Larry's scapes allow people to do that.<BR/><BR/>What came afterwards in 3.x and Ebberon was a disasterous mixture of colours and themes that bore little resemblance to how I could imagine myself (with quite a number notable exceptions).<BR/><BR/>The same thing applies to the Golden Age art...mostly I could never see myself as the Wizard or Magic User with "Stars & Moons" cap rather I was Gandalf.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78215909492660498432009-01-07T10:35:00.000-05:002009-01-07T10:35:00.000-05:00I wonder what Elmore's art process is -- particula...I wonder what Elmore's art process is -- particularly, I wonder if he poses real models, photographs them, and uses that as reference for his figures?<BR/><BR/>Because it occurs to me that there's a comic book artist, Alex Ross, who similarly paints bloody beautiful figures, but can't draw them in motion or throwing a proper kinetic punch to save his life. It finally dawned on me that's because he's having models hold a pose in a photo, and their muscles/limbs can't ever be right for someone actually in motion.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27473882981209344642009-01-06T08:46:00.000-05:002009-01-06T08:46:00.000-05:00Till now! http://www.enworld.org/forum/publishers...Till now! http://www.enworld.org/forum/publishers-press-releases/242817-d-d-4th-edition-frank-frazettas-death-dealer-adventure-goodman-games.htmlmxyzplkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02001543847878678903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74934245680727251732009-01-06T01:39:00.000-05:002009-01-06T01:39:00.000-05:00I remember once commenting that I associated Hollo...I remember once commenting that I associated Holloway's work with "fin de siecle" AD&D, and wasn't sure myself what I meant at the time apart from the later books with Jeff Easley covers. I think that was the same period in which I started to see Elmore's work, and your previous column spoke to Dragon Magazine of the time.<BR/><BR/>I do like the sense of action in so many Holloway pieces, and there are things I appreciate in illustrations from those other artists as well.<BR/><BR/>I think Michael Whelan, in his covers for the DAW Elric of Melnibone paperbacks, managed a wonderful combination of techniques including some perhaps not too far from Elmore's.<BR/><BR/>The crying shame is that (as far as I know) neither Frank Frazetta nor Joe Kubert ever did a piece for D&D.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48015670217683277652009-01-05T23:00:00.000-05:002009-01-05T23:00:00.000-05:00Aleena, the disco cleric, is a "Betty." I'm always...Aleena, the disco cleric, is a "Betty." I'm always drawn to back to her image. :)Timothy Stonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591260547388059848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42343598376877047662009-01-05T11:45:00.000-05:002009-01-05T11:45:00.000-05:00This sort of thing is colloquially referred to as ...<I>This sort of thing is colloquially referred to as 'kitsch'.</I><BR/><BR/>Some of Elmore's art is very kitschy, no question, but I don't think that's all he ever produced. He's not my favorite <I>D&D</I> artist by a long-shot, but he's not that bad.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32317591164186572802009-01-05T11:43:00.000-05:002009-01-05T11:43:00.000-05:00Though the whole D&D art thing is another in t...<I>Though the whole D&D art thing is another in the line of "My childhood is more important than YOURS" category so many retro D&D fan comments seem to end up being.</I><BR/><BR/>Except that it doesn't have to be and, as the discussion here has shown, that's not what we're about at all. Art can be discussed in a rational fashion and, for the most part, that's precisely what's going on here. Elmore, like Otus and Trampier and Sutherland, is a product of his time and there's much to be gained by discussing his virtues and vices in the context of when he did his seminal work and why he drew it as he did. I don't see much empty posturing here about whose childhood was better than anyone else. What I see is a lot of thoughtful discussion and reminiscences of why people like or dislike Elmore's art, which is precisely what I hoped would happen.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13246651408255286162009-01-05T11:40:00.000-05:002009-01-05T11:40:00.000-05:00Elmore is awesome! Anyone who disses him deserves ...<I>Elmore is awesome! Anyone who disses him deserves to roll straight 3s for their character's stats.</I><BR/><BR/>It's often easy to diss Elmore, because much of his work is unintentionally a parody of his own best work. I think the man has a lot of talent, but he also has demonstrated a tendency to "phone it in" when it comes to some of his artwork. I think his best pieces rightly belong in the pantheon of <I>D&D</I> art. Some of his worst, though -- and there's a lot of it -- is really bad and probably explains why many people have an aversion to him.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55950370543117510102009-01-05T09:02:00.000-05:002009-01-05T09:02:00.000-05:00Mr. Elmore is a good artist if artists painting ki...Mr. Elmore is a good artist if artists painting kittens playing with balls of yarn are good artists. Because the subject matter of Mr. Elmore's output is the fantasy equivalent of kittens playing with balls of yarn (that, and "landscapes so beautiful they make your eyes bleed").<BR/><BR/>This sort of thing is colloquially referred to as 'kitsch'.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64360567892083678592009-01-05T05:22:00.000-05:002009-01-05T05:22:00.000-05:00To me Elmore IS D&D and many of these "be...To me Elmore IS D&D and many of these "beloved" older D&D artists were either totally unsuited for what they drew most of the time, or weren't really very good at all.<BR/><BR/>(That or its a mixture of nostalgia and age. Yall 40+ folks might wanna get yer eyes examined! :P)<BR/><BR/>Holloway was awesome when doing creatures and more humorous bits.<BR/><BR/>Some of the older guys like Otus were put on things they really didn't belong. The Moldvay Cook covers were really bad. Otus on goopy monsters and wierdness? Oh god YES. General fantasy swordy stuff? No.<BR/><BR/>For a more recent example look at Geier's artwork. His stuff for Call of Cthulhu is awesome. His stuff for Battletech? <BR/><BR/>GAAAAAAG.<BR/><BR/>Though the whole D&D art thing is another in the line of "My childhood is more important than YOURS" category so many retro D&D fan comments seem to end up being. <BR/><BR/>Though to be honest RPGs to me should always look like the old Ultima manuals and covers. Denis Loubet's stuff is nearly perfect for "middle" fantasy artwork.Captain Rufushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296697477771399357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37841467746194832162009-01-05T01:56:00.000-05:002009-01-05T01:56:00.000-05:00Elmore's work often looks like the characters them...Elmore's work often looks like the characters themselves are posing to have their portrait taken! Which actually can often work rather well. By contrast Boris Vallejo (eg) paints very static-looking characters, but without any sense of in-world posing, they just look odd.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-92157625483676645012009-01-04T12:03:00.000-05:002009-01-04T12:03:00.000-05:00Elmore is my favorite D&D artist. He's cl...Elmore is my favorite D&D artist. He's clearly the most technically proficient. He has flaws, like the way his pictures have that strangely static quality, but all the D&D artists have some specific aspects like that to their work.mxyzplkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02001543847878678903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9737281404080652942009-01-04T00:11:00.000-05:002009-01-04T00:11:00.000-05:00Michael, really good point about L3.I really did l...Michael, really good point about L3.<BR/><BR/>I really did like WAR's artwork in the 3E DMG -- particularly his black-and-white drawings of construction work (p. 16), dungeon features (p. 106-113), stuff like that.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50879731487258330892009-01-03T23:00:00.000-05:002009-01-03T23:00:00.000-05:00Since Reynolds is part of the discussion - I think...Since Reynolds is part of the discussion - I think James is absolutely correct in laying the blame on WizBro's art director(s). Reynolds did a lot (all?) of the illos for L3 when it was published as part of the Silver Anniversary set, and I think they're fantastic and harken back to the Golden Age without aping the style. (Too bad the module itself was not anywhere near as good.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34298330168358997632009-01-03T20:19:00.000-05:002009-01-03T20:19:00.000-05:00There was a bit of cyberpunk in there too, as I re...There was a bit of cyberpunk in there too, as I recall.<BR/><BR/>I've not warmed to Elmore's art, as it's a bit too clean and sterile for my liking. I have always loved his "disco cleric" from the Red Box set however. Her pose is ridiculous, but there's something about that image that keeps drawing me back.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83473950412888506172009-01-03T15:26:00.000-05:002009-01-03T15:26:00.000-05:00I could go on at great length about every wrong no...I could go on at great length about every wrong note that Eberron took, starting with its rather ham-fisted attempt to treat "pulp" as a genre (I think what they meant was some unholy amalgam of <I>film noir</I> and adventure serials). Even given that, the over the top, comic style of the art only made the whole thing seem more ludicrous. I think an equally vibrant but less kinetic style would have served it better.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64599313177818746592009-01-03T15:13:00.000-05:002009-01-03T15:13:00.000-05:00Which is why I lay the blame for it with his art d...<I>Which is why I lay the blame for it with his art director</I><BR/>So, did you dislike the pulp/comic influences in the Eberron setting, or was it just how they were expressed through the art style?thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75787861192671904622009-01-03T12:11:00.000-05:002009-01-03T12:11:00.000-05:00Although with Eberron, that was part of the whole ...<I>Although with Eberron, that was part of the whole point, was it not?</I><BR/><BR/>I'd certainly agree. One thing about Reynolds is he's rather eclectic in his styles, and is willing, if not eager, to shift his style to suit the needs of his clients.<BR/><BR/>- Briantrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16240944674363251462009-01-03T12:10:00.000-05:002009-01-03T12:10:00.000-05:00Although with Eberron, that was part of the whole ...<I>Although with Eberron, that was part of the whole point, was it not?</I><BR/><BR/>Which is why I lay the blame for it with his art director and not with Reynolds, who's actually a very talented artist.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90982060306421140142009-01-03T12:08:00.000-05:002009-01-03T12:08:00.000-05:00I dislike most of Reynolds' late 3e work, particul...<I>I dislike most of Reynolds' late 3e work, particularly the stuff he did for Eberron, which I find too comic book-like and over the top.</I><BR/>Although with <I>Eberron</I>, that was part of the whole point, was it not?thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82251436381765335352009-01-03T01:16:00.000-05:002009-01-03T01:16:00.000-05:00Elmore is awesome! Anyone who disses him deserves ...Elmore is awesome! Anyone who disses him deserves to roll straight 3s for their character's stats.Hanley Tuckshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13047638048463160737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44397301168389491822009-01-02T20:54:00.000-05:002009-01-02T20:54:00.000-05:00Some of Elmore's stuff is great. I actually bought...Some of Elmore's stuff is great. I actually bought an original on Ebay a couple of years ago, just to have 'an Elmore'. The grandkids will thank me, won't they?<BR/><BR/>However, I'm not a fan of the ridiculous female "armor" that appears in a lot of his work.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72336046856567513832009-01-02T19:39:00.000-05:002009-01-02T19:39:00.000-05:00Huh! I remember this image from an early-eighties ...Huh! I remember this image from an early-eighties print ad for D&D that showed up in the comics I was reading. The accompanying blurb talked about "Dark Ages adventure" or somesuch, which had young me trying to imagine how the default D&D setting of orcs and such were supposed to fit into the actual historical Dark Ages. I tended to take fluff text too literally, back then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24310957052350466672009-01-02T19:37:00.000-05:002009-01-02T19:37:00.000-05:00Of the Silver Age and 2E era, it's Caldwell I can'...<I>Of the Silver Age and 2E era, it's Caldwell I can't stand. All Caldwell's armor looks like it's made of plastic, and the weapons all look blunt.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm with you there. I can't stand Caldwell's art.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com