tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8085379268347405416..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Pulp Fantasy Gallery: Lest Darkness FallJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20621151993676868712008-12-26T16:24:00.000-05:002008-12-26T16:24:00.000-05:00I agree completely James, which is why (thus far) ...I agree completely James, which is why (thus far) I haven't made time for UK1. I have a strongly positive memory of running UK6 All That Glitters and adapting it to the Sulhaunt Mountains in Greyhawk, but otherwise I found the UK modules in general to range from complete rubbish to perhaps salvageable crap.<BR/><BR/>Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59658351648556006022008-12-26T13:32:00.000-05:002008-12-26T13:32:00.000-05:00Allan,I'm a bit of a heretic in thinking that the ...Allan,<BR/><BR/>I'm a bit of a heretic in thinking that the UK modules series was pretty mediocre, particularly when compared to the much better U-series or, for that matter, many other late 1e modules. I think the UK modules tend to get better press than they deserve because they're quirky and oozing with flavor. Unfortunately, I don't much like that flavor and, as adventures, they're definitely not ideal. I don't think they're terrible and I certainly understand why they're well regarded; I simply don't see them as so much better than other modules of the era to be placed on the pedestal I sometimes see them placed.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53725854970283419142008-12-26T13:08:00.000-05:002008-12-26T13:08:00.000-05:00I remembered that another real-world crossover int...I remembered that another real-world crossover into D&D occurs in the module UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave: it features the Old English pantheon of gods, while squarely being set in Greyhawk (in the Hold of the Sea Princes). <BR/><BR/>Some friends in my current play group rank UK1 among their favorite sleeper modules, but I haven't made time to re-read it yet to see if I agree. My recollection of UK1 places it squarely in the "meh" category at best.<BR/><BR/>Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53856620269852038452008-12-23T14:01:00.000-05:002008-12-23T14:01:00.000-05:00(Not to mention how much I hate seeing creativity ...<I>(Not to mention how much I hate seeing creativity amputated for fear of imaginary lawsuits.)</I><BR/><BR/>You and me both<BR/><BR/><I>I'm coming down with a Christmas flu, so I lack the capacity to offer any new thoughts here. However, Eric Trautmann wanted me to say 'Hi' for him.</I><BR/><BR/>Get well and say hello to Eric for me. Let him know I still envy his productivity and success :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31690010859812407462008-12-23T14:00:00.000-05:002008-12-23T14:00:00.000-05:00Where once the trend was to criticize D&D for ...<I>Where once the trend was to criticize D&D for not giving Gandalf his due, now it might be more common to knock Tolkien for improperly representing a "high-level Wizard." (I may be exaggerating on that count!)</I><BR/><BR/>Only slightly :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37960459353671047602008-12-23T13:59:00.000-05:002008-12-23T13:59:00.000-05:00The Tolkien influence seems gradually to have beco...<I>The Tolkien influence seems gradually to have become dominant in both D&D and heroic fantasy. Even more, tropes of the game have fed into fiction and then been fed back. What has become of Drow (especially!), Gnomes and Halflings seem to me striking examples of the feedback loop.</I><BR/><BR/>Very much so. It's disappointing to me how incestuous the entire genre of fantasy has become.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2305282576654473732008-12-23T07:23:00.000-05:002008-12-23T07:23:00.000-05:00That is interesting about the Forgotten Realms; th...That is interesting about the <I>Forgotten Realms</I>; the name always suggested that to me, and in my youth I often associated it with the "realms" mentioned in the <I>Dungeons & dragons</I> cartoon, which is perhaps the most widely known D&D crossover with the real world! :DAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41865556116785057252008-12-23T05:09:00.000-05:002008-12-23T05:09:00.000-05:00Although I enjoy lost world and sword & planet...Although I enjoy lost world and sword & planet stories, and of course <I>Connecticut Yankee</I>, I have trouble getting into the modern hero moving into a fantasy world. I'm not sure why, although I suspect "Beastmaster 2" has something to do with it. Actually, it seems there were quite a few "lost in the modern world" films in the 80s, to the point that it was parodied in an Alf comic (with an ersatz Conan teaming up with the ersatz Marx Brothers, if you can believe it). <BR/><BR/>As for Forgotten Realms, Greenwood said in an interview in Kobold Quarterly that his original concept of the setting was a magical realm from which we get our myths, legends, and fairy tales, a bit like the Fables comic (created by Bill Willingham - coincidence?). According to him, TSR wanted to downplay this aspect for fear that kids might get hurt trying to find portals to the Realms - or at least that parents might blame them when kids got hurt in the course of normal imaginative play. Reading that made me kind of sad; I've never been a great fan of Forgotten Realms, but this idea made the whole thing a lot more appealing somehow. (Not to mention how much I hate seeing creativity amputated for fear of imaginary lawsuits.)<BR/><BR/>I'm coming down with a Christmas flu, so I lack the capacity to offer any new thoughts here. However, Eric Trautmann wanted me to say 'Hi' for him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86234395872287115302008-12-22T18:41:00.000-05:002008-12-22T18:41:00.000-05:00With the release of AD&D, I came to see the ga...With the release of AD&D, I came to see the game as a sort of world unto itself, as distinctively Gygaxian as (for instance) RuneQuest was a reflection of Greg Stafford's personal vision, or EPT of M.A.R. Barker's.<BR/><BR/>Now it seems to have become in some minds the definition of the fantasy genre. Dunsany's dwarfs and elves, even his Gnoles, may be judged "wrong." Something without those creatures altogether may not even qualify. Where once the trend was to criticize D&D for not giving Gandalf his due, now it might be more common to knock Tolkien for improperly representing a "high-level Wizard." (I may be exaggerating on that count!)Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91300625894302072042008-12-22T18:12:00.000-05:002008-12-22T18:12:00.000-05:00The distinction of a category of "hard" ...The distinction of a category of "hard" SF goes back to Jules Verne. There has long been a broad area in which what matters is not the trappings but the treatment. Burroughs' Barsoom may once have been science-fictional, but it reads better as fantasy today. For all their superficial similarities, Smith's "Lensman" series remains SF while "Star Wars" is pure fantasy; science, from physics to sociology, plays no role at all in the latter.<BR/><BR/>Norton's Witch World series has been marketed in different categories at different times, even by the same publisher (e.g., Ace and Tor). The same has probably happened with Bradley's Darkover.<BR/><BR/>What I really see is the rise out of the ghetto into popularity of a genre that blithely mixes superficialities from both while having the depths of neither. I knew a fellow who liked to say that "everything started with Star Wars" -- and perhaps this one thing did.<BR/><BR/>The Tolkien influence seems gradually to have become dominant in both D&D and heroic fantasy. Even more, tropes of the game have fed into fiction and then been fed back. What has become of Drow (especially!), Gnomes and Halflings seem to me striking examples of the feedback loop.<BR/><BR/>I shudder to imagine what the influence of "4E" shall produce.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54350460931938895322008-12-22T14:47:00.000-05:002008-12-22T14:47:00.000-05:00The eclecticism of Gygaxian influences, more than ...<I>The eclecticism of Gygaxian influences, more than particular titles, strikes me as a contrast to the relative homogeneity of what we get now that there's an increasingly incestuous relationship between commercial D&D and popular fantasy fiction.</I><BR/><BR/>Very well said.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8576623312173483882008-12-22T14:46:00.000-05:002008-12-22T14:46:00.000-05:00The Forgotten Realms kept up a degree of passing m...<I>The Forgotten Realms kept up a degree of passing mentions of connections to our Earth, at least, though it hasn't done anything to encourage crossover play.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, it's something that was mentioned in passing in the 1e boxed set and then pretty much dropped since then.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39975089473984187282008-12-22T10:50:00.000-05:002008-12-22T10:50:00.000-05:00Dwayanu said The eclecticism of Gygaxian influence...Dwayanu said <I>The eclecticism of Gygaxian influences, more than particular titles, strikes me as a contrast to the relative homogeneity of what we get now that there's an increasingly incestuous relationship between commercial D&D and popular fantasy fiction.</I><BR/><BR/>Great point Dwayanu: once Fantasy was carved out as a genre distinct from SF (does anyone have a date for this fiction category change, by chance?---it strikes me as most-likely circa 1977 Ballantine reprints of LOTR and the advent of The Sword of Shannara??), Fantasy (and therefore D&D) became much more narrow in scope compared to the pulp roots that spawned it. That sameness colors much of the rpg industry production of FRPGs from ~1983 onward---and not for the better!<BR/><BR/>Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1833043084678162372008-12-22T09:02:00.000-05:002008-12-22T09:02:00.000-05:00Once upon a time, that wasn't the norm: adventurer...<I>Once upon a time, that wasn't the norm: adventurers regularly encountered dimensional castaways from 20th century Earth or raided the British Museum in search of the Mace of St. Cuthbert.</I><BR/><BR/>I never much liked that aspect of D&D. Maybe the movies 'Labyrinth' and 'The Never Ending Story' are to blame. -Those were my first introductions to these themes. Meh.<BR/><BR/>That said, we occasionally tied our campaigns to anachronistic worlds. However, as different as these worlds were from that of our campaign, they never resembled any period of our own.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6844119173384415542008-12-22T05:33:00.000-05:002008-12-22T05:33:00.000-05:00Pratt's Well of the Unicorn draws on his historica...Pratt's <I>Well of the Unicorn</I> draws on his historical <I>The Last King</I> -- and perhaps also touches base with Eddison's <I>Mezentian Gate</I>.<BR/><BR/>The eclecticism of Gygaxian influences, more than particular titles, strikes me as a contrast to the relative homogeneity of what we get now that there's an increasingly incestuous relationship between commercial D&D and popular fantasy fiction.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46560368595139817772008-12-22T05:11:00.000-05:002008-12-22T05:11:00.000-05:00I loved Lest Darkness Fall, so of course also dig ...I loved <I>Lest Darkness Fall</I>, so of course also dig Drake's and Turtledove's alternate-history fantasies. I don't remember who wrote the "agent of Byzantium" series of stories, but I do remember them. And of course actually reading Mark Twain's <I>Connecticut Yankee</I> and <I>Mysterious Stranger</I> is in another league from watching Bob Hope tear up the silver screen. For one thing, Twain's vision was much darker than Hollywood's ...<BR/><BR/>Simak did a very D&D-ish novel (and a sequel, titles escaping me at the moment) in which the threat of scary monsters and super freaks kept the Roman Empire together into the 1970s AD -- while simultaneously hindering technological development. Some of the characters appeared in an installment of the "Giants in the Earth" column of Dragon Magazine.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38107560516803648042008-12-22T02:14:00.000-05:002008-12-22T02:14:00.000-05:00The Forgotten Realms kept up a degree of passing m...The Forgotten Realms kept up a degree of passing mentions of connections to our Earth, at least, though it hasn't done anything to encourage crossover play.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138730966226244399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43794109059976394202008-12-22T00:13:00.000-05:002008-12-22T00:13:00.000-05:00Indeed, I can't recall any specific connection...<I>Indeed, I can't recall any specific connection between a D&D world and our own in anything published in over 20 years.</I><BR/><BR/>Urban Arcana, for d20 Modern, was pretty explicitly linked to Greyhawk. But yeah, I always loved that aspect of AD&D and threw my players into the modern world, or a modern world, more than a few times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com