tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post821206140002454377..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Gygax on Tolkien (Again)James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50910791726298771172011-12-31T11:11:37.982-05:002011-12-31T11:11:37.982-05:00D&D would have been better off excluding hobbi...D&D would have been better off excluding hobbits/halflings as player characters -- and I am a big, big LotR nerd. <br /><br />There's plenty in Tolkien for those looking for heroic fantasy. Would AD&D have had rangers without LotR?<br /><br />I could never take Gygax's Tolkien bashing seriously. Tolkien casts a very long shadow over D&D.Joe Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08847388615721715893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82009778225944692482010-04-07T05:27:30.269-04:002010-04-07T05:27:30.269-04:00In d&d and ad&d for starting player charac...In d&d and ad&d for starting player character we can say that aside from gnomes and humans the dwarves, halflings, elves and half elves are taken from Tolkien. But it must be taken into account that Tolkien did not create dwarves and elves, he had taken them from norse mythology, and the first prominent figure who used elves in popular fantasy was Lord Dunsanny not Tolkien. Also the elves and dwarves in d&d are more like their norse mythology counterparts (especially the duergar). When you look at the monstrous manual you will see that there is very little tolkien matter there. <br /><br />Many people underestimate the original elements for d&d like the githyanki, beholders, mind flayers, sahuagin, kuo-toa etc.. (yes i know a lot of them has some Vancian and Lovecraftian influence but they have a unique originality in the end).yegenekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17256862706646389798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85407811176832400092010-01-19T23:55:03.547-05:002010-01-19T23:55:03.547-05:00Oh, and Ace's edition wasn't pirated. It w...Oh, and Ace's edition wasn't pirated. It was in fact quite legal, under US law. Tolkien's publishers published a small edition; they didn't do it properly for US law; and LoTR went into the public domain. Which stunk for Tolkien, but was perfectly legal for Ace to take advantage of. "Pirated" is a harsh word for "printing a PD book".<br /><br />Thus all the kerfuffle over various trademarks and movie rights, and thus Tolkien's "courtesy at least" foreword to the Ballantine edition. All he could legally do was ask nicely; and it was public-spirited of Ace and other US publishers not to continue publishing their own editions.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63432114178066820542010-01-19T23:49:39.613-05:002010-01-19T23:49:39.613-05:00As a philologist as much as an author interested i...As a philologist as much as an author interested in his readers, Tolkien was well aware that a lot of folks (like Gygax) just didn't get or get into his books. It's not a matter of level of intelligence or literary understanding; it's more a certain cast of mind. (If I were a neuropsychologist, I would do studies.) Anyway, this was Tolkien's opinion on the matter:<br /><br />The Lord of the Rings <br />Is one of those things. <br />If you like it, you do;<br />If you don't, you boo.<br /><br />So Gygax booed, and others didn't. That's all.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73207082864742497662010-01-19T09:58:52.514-05:002010-01-19T09:58:52.514-05:00On a completely random tangent: I think the fantas...<i>On a completely random tangent: I think the fantasy author who gets most over-looked for influencing D&D is Randall Garrett. His Lord Darcy stories are, AFAIK, the only pre-D&D example of a division between holy and arcane magic based on the fact that only the former was capable of healing injuries.</i><br /><br>I don't ever recall anyone associated with the early game mention the Lord Darcy stories. That might be because the bulk of them were written after OD&D was published, although several predate the game by a decade. I'm a fan of them myself and never considered them a possible influence on the game but it's an intriguing notion.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44375228163217648922010-01-16T14:06:18.680-05:002010-01-16T14:06:18.680-05:00I think the whole debate is a wonderful illustrati...I think the whole debate is a wonderful illustration of collaborative creation. It's very much how three, four, or five people in a rock or jazz band can invent something on the fly, taking disparate bits of things that the participants value in different measure. (Say the guitar player likes Jimmy Page, but the bass player much prefers Wayne Shorter) You will end up with something that has skeins of all these influences, some patently obvious to even the most untrained ear, some far more obscure, though perhaps they were meant to be more prevalent.lazycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08391072231837230851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38299322480497800042010-01-15T23:38:41.161-05:002010-01-15T23:38:41.161-05:00Well, these days I take being called pretentious a...Well, these days I take being called pretentious as a compliment : )Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49991507223776990592010-01-15T23:21:19.601-05:002010-01-15T23:21:19.601-05:00I'm not usually one to re-direct a criticism a...I'm not usually one to re-direct a criticism at the critic, but Edmund has no room to call anyone pretentious. He's the twit's twit.<br /><br />I'm infatuated with Tolkien's work. I admire his writing. But I feel pretty much the same about a dozen other authors. There's nothing pretentious about it. Aside from my ascot. :-DGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285645317925993821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57132025538878579772010-01-15T22:56:02.927-05:002010-01-15T22:56:02.927-05:00Sorry, I didn't intended it as such. It just s...Sorry, I didn't intended it as such. It just sprang into my mind reading grodog's comment above.<br /><br />Is it actually possible to troll a thoroughly flogged deceased equine as the Tolkien/RPG-fan topic?<br /><br />If so I submit <a href="http://jrrvf.ifrance.com/sda/critiques/the_nation.html" rel="nofollow">Edmund Wilson's take</a> on the series : )<br /><br />Key quote: "it ought to be said at this point... that Dr. Tolkien makes few claims for his fairy romance... The pretentiousness is all on the part of Dr. Tolkien's infatuated admirers, and it is these pretensions that I would here assail."<br /><br />=0<br /><br />BTW I *love* <i>DM of the Rings</i>.Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50889841539963791222010-01-15T20:45:46.709-05:002010-01-15T20:45:46.709-05:00^HAHAHA
It smells like trolls around here.^HAHAHA<br /><br />It smells like trolls around here.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285645317925993821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76761775933398765442010-01-15T20:38:56.227-05:002010-01-15T20:38:56.227-05:00Gary Gygax had great taste.
It sounds like TLotR ...Gary Gygax had great taste.<br /><br />It sounds like TLotR was the <i>Twilight</i> of the 1960-70s...Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76614669064495107672010-01-15T19:26:08.702-05:002010-01-15T19:26:08.702-05:00"I find it interesting that Gary thought that..."I find it interesting that Gary thought that players would not more readily identify with Aragorn, as opposed to Elric."<br /><br />Well, Aragorn is the prototypical goody-two-shoes. I think Gygax's idea of a hero is more of a swashbuckling rogue. Kind of like Han Solo before he met the princess and turned into a big boring wuss. :)Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19899064722643791562010-01-15T17:41:45.858-05:002010-01-15T17:41:45.858-05:00IMHO the impact of Tolkien's work become predo...IMHO the impact of Tolkien's work become predominant when we passed by Chain Mail to Dungeons and Dragons. There's no more iconic Dragon in a Dungeon than Smaug in Erebor. But for sure the "pulp" feeling has been always kept alive mainly by Gygax (Greyhawk is the less tolkenian setting, contrariwise the tolkenian feeling in early FR was huge), but even by other authors (EoC, Temple of Frog, City of Gods, etc in DA Blackmoor are more pulp fantasy than tolkien inspired).<br />I think Tolkien had more appeal to the youngest gamers than any other author. However I agree it was a huge but superficial influence, the ranger class is another exemple since it seems a mess about tolkien ranger, Aragorn features due to his royal dunedain heritage and his skills learned from his elven fellows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46455083198066694732010-01-15T14:42:11.873-05:002010-01-15T14:42:11.873-05:00> I got the impression from "Bob & Bil...> I got the impression from "Bob & Bill" that Bledsaw's first campaign was also set in Middle-Earth but quickly moved off its map to the Wilderlands, which supports both the idea that it was a natural assumption for groups at the time to start with Tolkien and also that it quickly proved poorly suited for gaming.<br /><br />Only if 1 1/2 years counts as "quickly"?<br />Don't know about a natural assumption to "start with Tolkien" since they didn't really "play LotR" there as far as I can ascertain. There was a nice baseline map to use, however: easy prey...irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2977377339690820182010-01-15T13:19:22.955-05:002010-01-15T13:19:22.955-05:00As long as everyone here agrees that Gandalf was a...As long as everyone here agrees that Gandalf was a 5th level magic-user, I guess I'm open to diversity of opinion on the other topics.<br /><br />- IgUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01134033175611675677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25035464800881656292010-01-15T09:35:18.158-05:002010-01-15T09:35:18.158-05:00has everyone seen "DM of the Rings?"
ht...has everyone seen "DM of the Rings?"<br /><br />http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?cat=14<br /><br />I don't know whether it speaks to influence, but it does highlight how playing D&D doesn't feel like reading Tolkien. (Aragorn, cursed by an especially crass and shallow PC) regards every settlement as a "town" and wants to find a brothel or at least a blacksmith where he get his sword fixed.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59700817698925968662010-01-14T21:38:25.863-05:002010-01-14T21:38:25.863-05:00I got the impression from "Bob & Bill&quo...I got the impression from "Bob & Bill" that Bledsaw's first campaign was also set in Middle-Earth but quickly moved off its map to the Wilderlands, which supports both the idea that it was a natural assumption for groups at the time to start with Tolkien and also that it quickly proved poorly suited for gaming. <br />- TavisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74415280419059771462010-01-14T20:36:13.583-05:002010-01-14T20:36:13.583-05:00[concluded]
While on the subject of Tolkien's...[concluded]<br /><br /><i>While on the subject of Tolkien's fantastic creations, old Tom Bombadil comes to mind. Professor Tolkien didn't really deal with this fascinating character at length, much to the readers' loss, but from what he did write some strong conclusions pertaining to his fantasy wargaming abilities and potential can be arrived at. Tom, as the "eldest" doesn't seem to be subject to the laws that affect the people (large and small) and the evil creations made after him. Bombadil is much like an elf, but he is different and superior. He travels with leaps and bounds, is tireless, can hear or sense calls of distress over great distances, and he commands plant and animal life with his spellsongs. Bombadil's capabilities would seem to include the negation of spells--at least insofar as they affect him. His destruction of the barrow wight was accomplished in an offhand manner, indicating the ease with which he accomplished the task. Finally, nothing save the strongest evil could harm him, evil only possible if the Dark Lord became master of all.<br /><br />Thus, from what Tolkien tells of Bombadil nothing could harm him in combat, he could destroy at a touch wraiths, wights, and possibly lycanthropes. He could certainly command animals and Ents. What would happen if Tom Bombadil faced a dragon, the Balrog, or giants is anyone's guess. Regardless, he is both too powerful and too neutral to include in the fantasy wargame, except perhaps in a Tolkienesque campaign where the forces of goodness were in extremis; then, along with Goodberry, they could almost certainly appear to help where they could. His wife would have the power to raise morale--as Tom would--and possibly she would be classed as an enchantress of sorts, equal to a Magician or a Warlock. Be that as it may, Tom Bombadil is a very merry fellow, even though he doesn't fit the wargame table.</i><br /><br />Enjoy!<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23933999936655691922010-01-14T20:34:06.583-05:002010-01-14T20:34:06.583-05:00So, here's the relevant info from "Fantas...So, here's the relevant info from "Fantasy Wargaming a'la Tolkien" by Gary Gygax (in Panzerfaust #60, Sept-Oct 1973 [date is extrapolated based on other PF issue dates; this specific issue appears undated to my eye], pages 40-41).<br /><br />The comment about Gandalf being limited to 1 LB and FB suggests a <br />limited view of his powers and capabilities (and that Gary had not yet picked up on his status as a Maia via the Appendicies of LOTR). The comments about Bombadil suggest an on-going debate/discussion about Bombadil as a gaming figure, to me, and that he was responding to common <br />queries at the time (either in Lake Geneva, or in the wargaming press, or perhaps both): <br /><br />===<br /><br />Tolkien, being neither a military historian nor a wargamer, gives his readers terriffic [sic] accounts of battles without sufficient hard data--so to speak--to allow duplication in miniature. There is one, however, that shouldn't be too difficult to duplicate on the wargame table. That is the "Battle of Five Armies" from <i>The Hobbit</i>. <br /><br />Therein the author gives enough order of battle and other information so as to allow reasonable approximation of the "actual" conditions of the <br />engagement. This is how to set it up and conduct the game using the <br />CHAINMAIL Fantasy rules:<br /><br /><i>Orders of Battle</i><br /><br />[snip]<br /><br />1 Wizard (Gandalf) with but 1 Lightening-bolt [sic] & 1 Fireball<br /><br />[snip]<br /><br />Knowing the number of dwarves to be 500, and that there were two waves of 1000 elves which attacked, the other forces can be approximated with fair credibility. The most difficult force to estimate is that of Bolg. Certainly 5,000 goblins would not be too many to assume, as Tolkien says later that the bulk of their warriors fell during the course of the battle and the pursuit of the fugitives thereafter. However, is that <br />number--translated to 250 wargame figures--sufficient to face the troops deployed against them? If all goblins and the ogre guards of Bolg are classes [sic] as "Half-armor and shield" for purposes of missile fire, and Bolg himself as "Full armor and shield", the effect of archers upon their ranks will be negliible considering their numbers, and correct as far as the tale reveals. If the commander of the Warg/goblin array moves with utmost dispatch, there is a chance for him to attain his objective <br />before the eagles arrive. I would appreciate hearing from any reader who fights the battle in order to learn how the opposing forces did in their game.<br /><br />[to be continued]grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36025195764615230082010-01-14T19:12:35.301-05:002010-01-14T19:12:35.301-05:00on the other hand and more importantly for me Tolk...on the other hand and more importantly for me Tolkien would probably take a deem view on people prancing around middle earth in some game...opossum101https://www.blogger.com/profile/14918781180223282882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44873121574891687922010-01-14T14:45:05.042-05:002010-01-14T14:45:05.042-05:00Nice find.
I can fully support Gygax's positi...Nice find.<br /><br />I can fully support Gygax's position in 1974 that Tolkien was just one of many equal influences in the creation of his game, but contributed many useful and interesting ideas.<br /><br />Post-lawsuit, however, Tolkien got downgraded from one of "not a few such authors" to a second-tier contributor who was only included to sucker in the fanboys.<br /><br />Which any honest analysis of OD&D's text would reveal to be patently absurd: Tolkien-inspired creations can be found everywhere. Not out of proportion to many other sources (including Howard, Anderson, and Lovecraft), but everywhere nonetheless.<br /><br />Of course, on the flip-side, Gygax wasn't the only guy credited as the author of those books.<br /><br />On a completely random tangent: I think the fantasy author who gets most over-looked for influencing D&D is Randall Garrett. His Lord Darcy stories are, AFAIK, the <i>only</i> pre-D&D example of a division between holy and arcane magic based on the fact that only the former was capable of healing injuries.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9580942448169102272010-01-14T14:26:17.182-05:002010-01-14T14:26:17.182-05:00That second passage reminded me of how vehemently ...That second passage reminded me of how vehemently I disagreed with Gary's sniffing dismissal of Tolkien and LotR way back then -- and still do.<br /><br />Not surprising, since the Aragorn he held in such contempt is one of my favorite characters in all fantasy literature.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48991288622014184882010-01-14T14:25:42.291-05:002010-01-14T14:25:42.291-05:00Regarding JRRT and EGG, I would like to point out ...Regarding JRRT and EGG, I would like to point out that Gary was never saying he was a better writer than him, particularly where his own novels were concerned (he called his own books half-jokingly "pot-boilers").<br /><br />But I think the key criticism that inspired EGG to write his notes was how dominant Tolkien became amongst fantasy fans--especially in the day and age that D&D was created. People would look at JRRT's work and declare it innovative in many areas while Gary could see the same sources used. And I think Gary was in part trying to let people know that there is a wealth of sources that D&D was built from, not just one novel. He wanted people to read the other sources, and see the wealth of literature he read as a kid and young adult. Not just JRRT, but Howard, Lovecraft, Vance, Lieber, deCamp, Merritt, Moorcock, Anderson, and the rest.<br /><br />I think that's the main point that gets missed when we analyze his statements.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53209874656647213942010-01-14T13:44:35.257-05:002010-01-14T13:44:35.257-05:00I've said before that I think Gary gravely mis...<i>I've said before that I think Gary gravely misunderstood and misinterpreted Tolkien. </i><br /><br><br /><i>I find it interesting that Gary thought that players would not more readily identify with Aragorn, as opposed to Elric.</i><br /><br><br />Yes, I find it amusing that the three characters Gygax picks as examples of personalities you wouldn't want to play in <i>D&D</i> are amongst the most adventurer-ish of the lot!thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47421240110899932512010-01-14T12:56:26.219-05:002010-01-14T12:56:26.219-05:00I guess part of the reason the Tolkien's races...I guess part of the reason the Tolkien's races, including the Hobbit, were included in D&D is that the booklets were written, at least partially, to fit more or less with allready ongoing campaigns, at least the two Old Ones (Blackmoor and Greyhawk - where players demands had a big role, to the points Gary suggest to have the players vote on some points), and also campaigns which could have started between the prerelease and the publication.<br /><br />And Blackmoor did have an Hobbit character, apparently before the publication of D&D. So, it enforces the idea that Gary could have done his best to prevent the influence of Tolkien in D&D, while it was strongly supported by players.Nicolas Dessauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010015806129652185noreply@blogger.com