tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8240086690978337645..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Inspiration and EmulationJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31845303522965014252012-05-04T18:39:48.639-04:002012-05-04T18:39:48.639-04:00@mark delsing I'm with you. Im sorry James but...@mark delsing I'm with you. Im sorry James but I think this smacks of apologism. I don't think D&D needs to apologize for anything on its own terms. But nothing can be all things to all people and if you have an expectation that D&D will give you an experience faithful to pulp S&S that expectation will not be fulfilled. <br />I think that to express that as a legitimate criticism is valid.charles mark fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13385121479729236749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51943375805430428872012-05-04T16:40:52.469-04:002012-05-04T16:40:52.469-04:00You seem to be conflating "genre emulation&qu...You seem to be conflating "genre emulation" with emulation of a particular license. I think that these are two different topics and can (and perhaps should) be addressed separately.Romannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35024603392971615622012-05-03T10:43:23.762-04:002012-05-03T10:43:23.762-04:00Yeah...outside of The Hobbit and The Wizard of Oz ...Yeah...outside of The Hobbit and The Wizard of Oz films, and Ray Harryhausen films, D&D was my entry point into fantasy literature, rpgs, and hobby gaming in general. I'm just glad I found appendix N at age 14. (I flat out rejected a big part of the suggested reading in the back of moldvay basic, however. Mostly stuff that didn't overlap with Appendix N.)<br /><br />Regarding Emulation and Inspiration...well, think of guitar players. If you listen to two guitar players, and one sounds like he grew up listening to Led Zeppelin, Rush, and Deep Purple, while the other sounds like he's flat out trying to copy Jimmy Page, Alex Lifeson, and Richie Blackmoore....well, the former is inspired and the later is emulating/aping. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which approach is more satisfying, for both the audience and artist. Same train of thought applies to RPGs.Franciscanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31232626821702053282012-05-03T08:13:27.247-04:002012-05-03T08:13:27.247-04:00Not at all. Just because a gamebook has a strong, ...Not at all. Just because a gamebook has a strong, unique vision doesn't mean it's a strong vision of how the story has to turn out. I mean, when I think of D&D books that craft something original, I'm thinking of Vornheim, LotFP, Carcosa. All of which go beyond just emulating such-and-such a genre of novels or films, but none of them are in the least bit railroady.<br /><br />Conversely, you could still be a 'would-be-fantasy-author' trying to emulate a genre without innovation. Like, I don't know a huge amount of detail about Dragonlance, but isn't that Super Generic Fantasy Land AND the poster-child for terrible novelistic railroads?William Broomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54393131808354056532012-05-02T21:05:29.254-04:002012-05-02T21:05:29.254-04:00The first real "emulation game" was prob...The first real "emulation game" was probably RuneQuest and/or Chivalry and Sorcery, with their attempts to create/emulate a realistic blow-by-blow combat, rather than the abstracted version presented in D&D.<br /><br />Emulation rears its head pretty quickly in genre games such as Champions/V&V.<br /><br />The first game where I ran into emulation as a design goal was Bond 007. Pistols were relatively better than rifles in that game. Why? Cause 007 doesn't usually use a rifle!Mark Rhttp://profile.yahoo.com/A2RWRDYRBU7KPSRZF5HVCDOKCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54504079547353880202012-05-02T19:14:10.397-04:002012-05-02T19:14:10.397-04:00 Doesn't that ambition create the danger of &#... Doesn't that ambition create the danger of 'game-designer-as-would-be-fantasy-author'?James Hutchingsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46096302931712466312012-05-02T15:31:48.748-04:002012-05-02T15:31:48.748-04:00Your point is well taken. D&D is a thing all ...Your point is well taken. D&D is a thing all its own. Really, it's AD&D that got me into reading fantasy, and for that I'm quite thankful. (There is nothing I remember more fondly than my first read-through of the magic-user spells in the PHB.) Still, it was that reading of fantasy that made me dissatisfied with D&D. It didn't match anything and just seemed quirky. Make no mistake; it was pretty much all I played in the 80's, and I had nothing but good times. But the lack of emulation of pretty much anything is what made me want to gravitate to other games. Alas, D&D was pretty much what everybody played (everyone I gamed with anyway), so that's where I had to remain and where I had to have my fun. So I understand that D&D has staked its own place (by design), but, even more, I get where the proponents of emulation are coming from.Joey Chapanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71866329988124868142012-05-02T13:54:23.172-04:002012-05-02T13:54:23.172-04:00I don't think that the increase in the use of ...I don't think that the increase in the use of the term "Appendix N" necessarily means an increase in the general readership for the works contained in Appendix N<br /><br />I read a number of Appendix N works before I had heard the term yet now I use it in discussions regarding D&D. I learned the term from the old school movement I didn't encounter the books there. I suspect that while some people encounter the old school style of play and then go on to read Appendix N works more encounter the term and go on to use it. The appendix still does increase readership of older fantasy of course and offers additional works to those who like some of the others but between people like me and people who use the term without having read any of the works the effect is much smaller then the current popularity of using the term Appendix N.<br /><br />There is also a significant difference between emulating features of a specific work or author and emulating a genre. The fact that "Vancian" magic does not work like the magic of Vance doesn't matter. The fact that I can't create a character of the same archetype as many Appendix N characters or that the game feels fundamentally different then the works? That is nothing but a failure to allow people to be meaningfully inspired by supposedly inspirational works.guestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55724929057164612152012-05-02T13:39:24.965-04:002012-05-02T13:39:24.965-04:00"If I read a list of inspirational works I ce..."If I read a list of inspirational works I certainly expect the game to feel like the works listed and if it doesn't it's failed."<br /><br />To me, that's a very narrow definition of "inspiration." Given the breadth of the books and authors Gygax alone (never mind Arneson) listed as inspirations for the game, there was no way the game could ever feel like them all in any significant way.James Maliszewskihttp://grognardia.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87014581495753279332012-05-02T13:37:54.109-04:002012-05-02T13:37:54.109-04:00Please delete. I wanted to post as Guest.Please delete. I wanted to post as Guest.Lyndon Mcintyrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45677088654226241222012-05-02T13:31:59.815-04:002012-05-02T13:31:59.815-04:00The term "Appendix N" obviously is depen...The term "Appendix N" obviously is dependent on how well old school gaming is doing at the moment but I disagree that this is reflective of a general increase in interest in the books located within.<br /><br />I read a fair percentage of Appendix N before ever hearing about it but now I use it to discuss D&D with respect to it's sources. Some people surely have discovered the books listed within through the old school gaming movement but I think many more discovered the term "Appendix N" as I did<br /><br />There is a significant difference between emulation in detail and emulation of the genre in general. If I read a list of inspirational works I certainly expect the game to feel like the works listed and if it doesn't it's failed. The fact that "Vancian" magic doesn't work like Vance's magic doesn't matter. The fact that I can't play a character archetypally similar to many of the inspirations certainly does.Lyndon Mcintyrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85085611653768251282012-05-02T12:36:56.210-04:002012-05-02T12:36:56.210-04:00With all due respect, I think this is a bit of a c...With all due respect, I think this is a bit of a cop-out.<br /><br />I mean, you are right about what D&D is; it's not emulation.<br /><br />But it's perfectly natural for someone who sees the books referenced in Appendix N, or who just plain looks at much of the art associated with D&D and D&D-inspired fantasy, to then play the game and feel an obvious disconnect. The famous Elmore cover to Mentzer Basic simply *is not going to happen* at 1st-3rd level; or, at least, that warrior is about to die horribly.<br /><br />Ergo, I think the fact that designers then went on to create games that tried to provide a play experience that matched the media that inspired them is a logical next step. They want what was promised on the tin.<br /><br />Honestly, D&D is quite the odd man out here. If only TSR has stayed with art—like the original PHB cover—that actually depicted what went on in the game. :)Mark Delsingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3272428428702483052012-05-02T10:24:49.716-04:002012-05-02T10:24:49.716-04:00"D&D was thus, for me, a primary gateway ..."D&D was thus, for me, a primary gateway to fantasy rather than being an outgrowth of my pre-existing interest in the genre." <br /><br />Before I got into 1E D&D last year, I always had the impression that ALL fantasy was Tolkien pastiche. What I don't think I realized is that modern fantasy is more of a hodgepodge of Tolkien and...D&D. Or, well, later D&D. It wasn't until I looked at Gygax's magical Appendix N that I realized there was more, that there was a whole genre of subjects other than elves and dwarves. Then I discovered the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series...<br /><br />Now I have all the books from Appendix N, plus some others, written on a sheet of paper, folded into my wallet. I pull it out every time I go into a used bookstore.Luke Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59670022987237813242012-05-02T09:53:13.015-04:002012-05-02T09:53:13.015-04:00"The problem with these questions, as I see i..."The problem with these questions, as I see it, is that D&D was never intended to emulate its sources at all. Rather, it took inspiration from them"<br /><br />Thanks for this. Most pulp fantasy does nothing for me. (Though I do enjoy skimming your "Pulp Fantasy Library" summaries.)brian cooperhttp://profiles.google.com/brian.andrew.coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67347508160985083802012-05-02T09:11:31.717-04:002012-05-02T09:11:31.717-04:00Wow, I thought that I was the only one who read th...Wow, I thought that I was the only one who read that series. John Laslohttp://profiles.google.com/laztheinfamousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75165295750058637502012-05-02T08:54:43.014-04:002012-05-02T08:54:43.014-04:00I have gotten into some trouble over the years by ...I have gotten into some trouble over the years by suggesting to fans of D&D that they at least have an understaning of the source material. I am not saying you have to play like the Grey Mouser, but you should at least know who he is. It is sad that most players see "The Halfling's Gem" (not a bad work in itself) as a classic of the genre. Jeffrey Kahrsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30855986592601903582012-05-02T08:48:16.037-04:002012-05-02T08:48:16.037-04:00This has been exactly my experience. I never read ...This has been exactly my experience. I never read any of the Appendix N works when I was playing D&D 20+ years ago, but lived on a poor diet of TSR novels and a few others like The Sword of Shannara. I've been reading the 'classics' for the last year since coming back to the hobby, and it has really opened my eyes to what D&D was meant to be originally and just increased my admiration and appreciation for the game.Chris L Sheppardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40598395444978529992012-05-02T08:41:58.034-04:002012-05-02T08:41:58.034-04:00That's one of things I enjoy when reading the...That's one of things I enjoy when reading the Appendix N books; finding the source or inspiration for individual spells, magic items and so on.Chris L Sheppardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85103744338608008592012-05-02T08:41:08.643-04:002012-05-02T08:41:08.643-04:00I think you've really hit the nail on the head...I think you've really hit the nail on the head. And though I won't begrudge anyone their fun, I personally much prefer 'inspiration' over 'emulation'. I like the Appendix N but it is just that - an appendix, and not even the most prominent appendix anyway. By comparison, I was kind of gobsmacked when I opened the Exalted corebook and saw that the whole first page was dedicated to "this game is influenced by anime, Greek mythology, etc." Before there was any mention of the game's setting or rules!<br /><br />That seems kind of... lacking in ambition. As a gamebook writer, don't you want to create something of your own rather than just creating a facsimile of what's come before?William Broomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51695387215140693572012-05-02T08:39:28.599-04:002012-05-02T08:39:28.599-04:00Thanks to James and everyone else for the recommne...Thanks to James and everyone else for the recommnedations. Although my already overburdened bookshelves won't like it.Chris L Sheppardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24477538270255194592012-05-02T08:28:14.482-04:002012-05-02T08:28:14.482-04:00Your Pulp Fantasy Library posts are what got me in...Your Pulp Fantasy Library posts are what got me into Appendix N literature. After not having read a damn thing for many years, I've been vastly enjoying the stories of Conan, Kull, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, a smattering of HPL, tons of Clark Ashton Smith (my personal favorite), The Dying Earth (simply amazing!), and I have a shelf full of second-hand books that is sure to keep me busy for years to come.<br /><br />Prior to that, I had only read Lord of the Rings (which I found quite tedious, to be honest), a few of the first Robert Jordan books (even more tedious), and a few dozen TSR-published D&D novels, which in hindsight were mediocre at best. This was all in my teenage years, and I thought that all fantasy came in the form of trilogies or open-ended series.You showed me something different. Something that reignited a love of reading that I had lost a long time ago. For that, I owe you a debt of gratitude.Jeremy Deramnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53941810392199190862012-05-02T08:19:18.222-04:002012-05-02T08:19:18.222-04:00Well-argued, but I think you're conflating two...Well-argued, but I think you're conflating two things:<br /><br />i) The designer wants a fantasy world that isn't like Middle Earth or the Hyborian Age.<br /><br />ii) The designer <i>does</i> want Middle Earth or the Hyborian Age, but ideas that seemed good at the time take it elsewhere.<br /><br />I suspect that Jorune or Tekumel are i, whereas D&D is ii.James Hutchingsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52698785867421592452012-05-02T08:11:37.894-04:002012-05-02T08:11:37.894-04:00 I recently looked through a book on 'game des... I recently looked through a book on 'game design' which turned out to be about computer games only. They had a section on how characters traditionally work, with levels, bonuses at different levels etc, which could have been "You know D&D? Like D&D." - but of course their readership presumably <i>doesn't</i> know D&D.James Hutchingsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27077830260612832002012-05-02T06:14:02.348-04:002012-05-02T06:14:02.348-04:00Since I'm rather quite interested in the matte...Since I'm rather quite interested in the matter of derivative geekness, that being the new generations of geeks enjoying derivative products unnknowing the sources, which in my opinion ends in a shallower hobby, I must say this is one of the your better and most relevants post ever.Luis M. Rebollarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63593170389950748762012-05-02T03:41:21.229-04:002012-05-02T03:41:21.229-04:00In Supplements 1 and 4, a total of 17 characters d...In Supplements 1 and 4, a total of 17 characters drawn from fiction are presented. Not all of them represent works that had a direct influence on <i>Traveller</i>, but they seem representative of works that the authors of <i>Traveller</i> admired for various reasons. They are as follows (and it is pretty obvious that the works represented in Supplement 1 were more directly influential than the ones in Supplement 4):<br /><br />Supplement 1: 1001 Characters<br /><br />John Carter of Mars (Edgar Rice Burroughs's Barsoom series)<br />Kimball Kinnison (E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series)<br />Jason dinAlt (Harry Harrison's Deathworld trilogy)<br />Earl Dumarest (E. C. Tubb's Dumarest saga)<br />Beowulf Shaeffer (Larry Niven's Known Space stories)<br />Anthony Villers (Alexei Panshin's <i>Starwell</i> and <i>The Thurb Revolution</i>)<br />Dominic Flandry (Poul Anderson's Flandry series)<br />Kirth Girsen (Jack Vance's Demon Prince series, specifically <i>The Killing Machine</i>)<br />Gully Foyle (Alfred Bester's <i>The Stars My Destination</i>)<br /><br />Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium<br /><br />Luke Skywalker (<i>Star Wars</i>)<br />James "Slippery Jim" diGriz (Harry Harrison's <i>The Stainless Steel Rat</i>)<br />Sergeant Major Calvin (Jerry Pournelle's <i>Sword and Sceptre</i> and <i>The Mercenary</i>)<br />Senior Physician Conway (James White's Sector General series)<br />Jame Retief (Keith Laumer's Retief series)<br />Lord Darth Vader (<i>Star Wars</i>)<br />Harry Mudd (<i>Star Trek</i>)<br />Simok Artrap (Isaac Asimov's <i>The Stars, Like Dust</i>)Faoladhnoreply@blogger.com