tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8320425046261378099..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Scrappy-Doo and the Hickman RevolutionJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5974854362234873392010-10-14T12:00:42.102-04:002010-10-14T12:00:42.102-04:00Coming to this comment a couple years late, but I&...Coming to this comment a couple years late, but I've thought about this topic before (and even posted about it back on the Necromancer Games boards years ago). <br /><br />Hickman & Weis's Dragonlance novels are what you're talking about. Hickman's *modules* are actually very old school (as you hint in passing), with a few interesting twists. One truly distinctive design achievement of his (which has seldom been used since) is his fondness for "story randomizers", such as the tarot cards in Ravenloft.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08868302412533031659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7991154937112925512010-09-30T10:33:39.472-04:002010-09-30T10:33:39.472-04:00So, Reuben, is your defense of 3e over earlier edi...So, Reuben, is your defense of 3e over earlier editions that it supports more than just dungeon crawls? If so, you should know that many of us find that the older editions work fine for more than dungeon crawls.<br /><br />If your defense of 3e is simply that you had more fun with it than 2e, then nobody can argue with that. I’ve had more fun with classic D&D than with 3e.<br /><br />(Also, there were two flavors of 2e. Well, a continuum really. “Core only” 2e without the optional rules is pretty “old school”. With the optional rules and the supplements, it becomes more of a proto-3e. So, I find comparisons against 2e generally need qualification.)<br /><br />I will say that there was a time when I didn’t think I’d ever play any of the older editions again. (Before 3e came along, I didn’t think I’d ever play <i>any</i> D&D again.) Now, though, the old Basic and Expert sets are one of my favorite games—if not my most favored. For whatever it’s worth.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32334433548207724522010-09-29T12:06:30.763-04:002010-09-29T12:06:30.763-04:00I've only been playing D&D since about 199...I've only been playing D&D since about 1990, so I'm far less experienced then some others that are on this site, but I'd like to stick my neck out for the new systems (3.5 and 4 ed). <br /><br />If I want to play a dungeon crawl, I'll go play WoW, or one of the numerous video games I have. Table top RPGs can no longer compete with these well designed, visually stunning, and generally fun areas of fantasy-themed entertainment without giving people something unique. <br /><br />The two things, in my mind, that make these table top RPGs unique is customizability, and flexibility. With table top games, you never feel like you are stuck in a box. The story can be whatever you want it to be. In addition, all of those little add-ons let you customize the flavor and the feel of the game in ways that really do add to the game, without having to switch to an entirely new way of thinking (i.e. system).<br /><br />I had more fun with 3e/3.5 than I ever did with 2nd ed, and everyone of my PCs thought the same. I'll never have a desire to play 2nd ed again. I don't think that I will ultimately enjoy 4e more than 3.0/3.5, but it still has a number of things going for it that I really do like. <br /><br />Young gamers are simply a different breed than older gamers. The internet has changed the way that we think. 4th ed. is designed with these changes in mind. It is simple to learn, easy to master, but still gives enough flexibility to feel like its not a video game. It takes what young gamers are already familiar with, and twists it just enough so that it captivates them. <br /><br />In some respects, I agree that 4th ed. is too simplified, and it doesn't contain some of those very interesting nuances that make for a truly unique experience. At the same time, 3.5 was too cumbersome, and even some of my very intelligent friends had difficulty learning the basic rules. <br /><br />I am glad that D&D went the way that it did. If it had stayed in the dungeon crawl 'classics' realm, I would have never even picked it up. D&D has given me and my friends countless hours of enjoyment, and I continue to look forward to future incarnations of the system. <br /><br />There will never be a 'perfect system.' Only systems that are better evolved to the current market. Besides, variety is the spice of life, and I look forward to learning new system and new interpretations of table top gaming.Reuben Terneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12803492160252350682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74992789157216549822010-02-17T00:39:01.220-05:002010-02-17T00:39:01.220-05:00> The problem is that we're now 25+ years i...> The problem is that we're now 25+ years into an era dominated by "story" without anything else and it's now, as a device, even more rotten than dungeoncrawling was in the early 80s. <br /><br />Well, there's still stuff out there like the Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics -- someone must have been buying them, because they published more than fifty of them for 3E, and are still around and publishing them for 4E (:-P). There's also Rappan Athuk (total meatgrinder of a megadungeon -- think the "Tomb of Horrors" <i>cubed</i>) and The World's Largest Dungeon (TM).<br /><br />Heck, a lot of what I see these days is not campaigns but campaign <i>settings</i>, with lots of story seeds but no over-arching story like the original Dragonlance modules. Over time they get bloated, but if you pick up one that's relatively fresh, like Golarion (the setting for Pathfinder), or one from a smaller publisher that can't <i>afford</i> to bloat it, like Ptolus, there's plenty of room for putting your own imprint on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29431209367441413052010-02-17T00:07:25.777-05:002010-02-17T00:07:25.777-05:00Jay said...
>You had me at "Dungeons &...Jay said...<br />>You had me at "Dungeons & Dragons cartoon."<br />>DVD set is teh awesomeness<br /><br />One of these days I'll have to get the U.S. set; I bought the Region 2 set about seven years ago, before they announced they were releasing it here.<br /><br />>Even comes with playable adventure module and the show's characters as PCs<br /><br />Will said...<br />>Just don't expect that module to play out like an episode of the show. As I remember, the kids were pretty badass due to having all the powers of their classes (not just ones from their items) and about 2-3 times more total levels between them than Venger.<br /><br />>Venger gonna get owned hard. :)<br /><br />I always got the feeling that would have happened in the cartoon, if 1980's cartoon censorship rules hadn't dictated that the good guys couldn't actually <i>hurt</i> the bad guys. There was that one episode where they decided they'd had enough of them, and cut a deal with Tiamat to drag him to the Dragons' Graveyard where their weapons could actually kill him. Of course, at the last moment they didn't go through with it, but they actually had him pinned and helpless, and Hank was all ready to <i>coup de grace</i> him with an energy arrow.<br /><br />I've also read the script for the never-filmed final episode, in which Venger is redeemed, and the heroes are given the option to go home, but ultimately choose to stay and defend the Realm against the Elder Evil that corrupted Venger in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5145438917696473922009-01-16T11:02:00.000-05:002009-01-16T11:02:00.000-05:00The original T2 would almost certainly have been v...The original T2 would almost certainly have been very different than the "super module" we got in 1985. It would have likely been just a big dungeon without even the thin plot of T1-4. I've often dreamed of what it would have been like and regret that we never got to see it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12750492025227138902009-01-16T10:00:00.000-05:002009-01-16T10:00:00.000-05:00T1–4 has its roots in 1979, but it was a product o...T1–4 has its <I>roots</I> in 1979, but it was a product of 1985, the TSR of 1985, and its editor.<BR/><BR/>Does anyone really doubt that if T2 (with no T3 or T4 follow-up) had been published in 1980 that it would have been a very different product?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55058205235225680872009-01-16T04:25:00.000-05:002009-01-16T04:25:00.000-05:00Counter-argument: T1-T4 originated in '79, had a s...Counter-argument: T1-T4 originated in '79, had a superabundance of backstory, and were linked far more tightly than the Giants/Dark Elves series.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46942126799641187052008-12-13T14:27:00.000-05:002008-12-13T14:27:00.000-05:00On the other hand, if something I like gets change...<I>On the other hand, if something I like gets changed so that I don’t like it, why should I let that bother me? The people who made those decisions have every right to make their own decisions. If lots of people enjoy the change, why should I begrudge them that?</I><BR/><BR/>I'd never begrudge anyone their preferences, even if I personally felt they were Philistines for liking something or other. What I do begrudge, though, is the way that game companies have been ruthlessly reducing venerable games into mere "brands" and calling it "evolution." I'm more than prepared to live and let live if I felt it was a two-way street, but, in recent years, I have felt increasingly that companies like WotC care little (and know less) about the history and traditions of this hobby or the people who cherish them.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59348493143196868022008-12-10T09:37:00.000-05:002008-12-10T09:37:00.000-05:00Very nice article!Personally, I have both reaction...Very nice article!<BR/><BR/>Personally, I have <I>both</I> reactions.<BR/><BR/>If you have to warp something to save it, maybe you just shouldn’t save it.<BR/><BR/>(Although, while “save or die” is a fine game mechanic, I think it’s often a false dichotomy for products.)<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if something I like gets changed so that I don’t like it, why should I let that bother me? The people who made those decisions have every right to make their own decisions. If lots of people enjoy the change, why should I begrudge them that?<BR/><BR/>(Does it make me a bad person that I genuinely enjoy Metallica’s black album more than their older stuff? ^_^)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79765442380712854672008-12-06T12:14:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:14:00.000-05:00What, indeed, would that alternate universe look l...<I>What, indeed, would that alternate universe look like then, and today?</I><BR/><BR/>An intriguing question. At that point, Pandora's Box had already been opened. Even if Hickman himself had been laid off, his ideas were already out there and becoming accepted. I'm not sure his departure would have changed the course of history significantly.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7553709264969931312008-12-06T12:12:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:12:00.000-05:00What's rotten is that one style has come to monopo...<I>What's rotten is that one style has come to monopolize the field.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed. I don't think the classic dungeoncrawl alone would have been enough to sustain <I>D&D</I>. Something else, some new approach was needed. The problem is that we're now 25+ years into an era dominated by "story" without anything else and it's now, as a device, even more rotten than dungeoncrawling was in the early 80s. <BR/><BR/>The other issue too is that there's a vast difference between an organically evolving story and a prefabricated one, the latter being what has become the default in gaming.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59210989737803180952008-12-06T12:09:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:09:00.000-05:00Did Mark create Scooby's retarded cousin (Dumby Do...<I>Did Mark create Scooby's retarded cousin (Dumby Doo? Retardoo?)as well as Scrappy? If so, only his work on Groo absolves him of those sins...</I><BR/><BR/>Scooby-Dum predates Mark Evanier's involvement <I>Scooby-Doo</I> as far as I can determine, so he's likely not responsible for him.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11472902105990923792008-12-06T12:06:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:06:00.000-05:00MK, I think the introduction of Scrappy was a catc...<I>MK, I think the introduction of Scrappy was a catchy gimmick...and the point James is making is that STORY (as a new module feature) was D&D's catchy gimmick, which saved the enterprise.</I><BR/><BR/>Correct.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12332439999028098442008-12-06T12:05:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:05:00.000-05:00If not Hickman, then somebody else would eventuall...<I>If not Hickman, then somebody else would eventually have done much the same thing.</I><BR/><BR/>Very likely. I don't think Hickman was the only person who could have done what he did, but he was the person at TSR whose ideas galvanized the company to shift the way it designed modules. That others could have done the same thing -- and probably would have, eventually -- shouldn't take away from his importance.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28876167799141897292008-12-06T12:02:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:02:00.000-05:00That DIY spirit is one of the best things about th...<I>That DIY spirit is one of the best things about the old school style of play and is the reason I love to read blogs like this even though I don't play OD&D/AD&D these days.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree. It's the part of the hobby I miss most and that I feel has been largely cast aside it's developed. Gaming nowadays is a much more pre-packaged form of entertainment and, while I recognize the appeal of that for many people, it's not at all what I want out of the hobby.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70308097624459029972008-12-06T11:50:00.000-05:002008-12-06T11:50:00.000-05:00I'm long on record as being disgusted by treating ...<I>I'm long on record as being disgusted by treating entertainment as "francises" that need to continue as long as possible for the sake of money and inertia alone.</I><BR/><BR/>I feel much the same and, of late anyway, I've been rather self-consciously trying to avoid supporting such things in preference to newer, original creative endeavors.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11146062826793228512008-12-05T08:06:00.000-05:002008-12-05T08:06:00.000-05:00mxyzplk, I tend to agree with Dwayanu. If the DM w...mxyzplk, I tend to agree with Dwayanu. If the DM wants to tell a story, then he or she should probably try their hand at writing novels.<BR/><BR/>Down through the years there have been so many game masters that I've experienced who wanted to railroad the game with their own stories. I noticed that many of these GMs also aspired to be authors. I don't think the role of author and GM is interchangeable.Xevenintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14609390831891414670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44420556747068096702008-12-05T01:13:00.000-05:002008-12-05T01:13:00.000-05:00Interesting that you should pot this now, about Hi...Interesting that you should pot this now, about Hickman, when Jeff Grubb mentions in passing that <B><A HREF="http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/2008/12/layoff-thoughts.html" REL="nofollow">Hickman almost got laid off just before Dragonlance premiered</A></B>. What, indeed, would that alternate universe look like then, and today?James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10588233931813111541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65271101134263022582008-12-04T22:25:00.000-05:002008-12-04T22:25:00.000-05:00@Ben- For sure, -as long as it was done tastefully...@Ben- For sure, -as long as it was done tastefully. I'm not a fan of art for the sake of art. However, I feel prose is just as important as artwork, even in game rules.<BR/><BR/>I read such works all the time.<BR/><BR/>In Blessington's eyes, the new paradise should be as free as the former from evil.<BR/>But if the new eve, for an apple should grieve, what mortal would not play the devil?<BR/><BR/>Byron, my friend!Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12936156346774333312008-12-04T22:19:00.000-05:002008-12-04T22:19:00.000-05:00mxyzplk: It's not that "story" is bad, but that we...mxyzplk: It's not that "story" is bad, but that we're talking about a <B>game</B> -- not a novel. The players' purpose is not to be a passive audience but actively to <I>create</I> the story. The game mechanics of D&D are designed not for an "authorial" narrative approach but to let <B>role-playing</B> take place in a context of uncertain outcomes. Player choice combines with chance to produce an often surprising series of events. When one tells of them afterward ... there's the story. It's <B>your</B> story,not the module designer's!Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36340601710806777172008-12-04T22:05:00.000-05:002008-12-04T22:05:00.000-05:00@MK - I'd be very interested to hear if you, or ot...@MK - I'd be very interested to hear if you, or others, would be willing to play an RPG or use a supplement (or, heck, read a novel) that used archaic terms not found in modern (read: post-1900) English.<BR/><BR/>Is language purely for communication? Or is it, perhaps, an art form? Does such an art have a place in game rules? And does the latest generation of gamers speak a different language from that of the oldest generation?Ben O.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01362794638243300594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20277368218710847212008-12-04T21:56:00.000-05:002008-12-04T21:56:00.000-05:00my problem with new d&d is not story but chara...my problem with new d&d is not story but character. for a long time, my d&d games could be described as a party of adolescent boys lost in a labyrinth on a quest for a personality. and it was when we ran out of new powers, abilities, and magic items and got bored with the imaginary power trip that we discovered the fun of actually developing our characters. and this automatically made for better stories (usually compeltely our own). under the new rules, the plan seems to be never let players run out of new "options" (i.e. products). I put the blame not on hickman but on MMORGS and other computererized imitations of D&D which compensate for the lack of a human GM to create interesting NPCs and (player)character-driven stories with an ability to efficiently and visually run large battles. New d&d, therefore seems likely to be a clunky imitation of the cold and alienating computerized imitation of old d&d.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84286329627955863912008-12-04T21:28:00.000-05:002008-12-04T21:28:00.000-05:00"It 'kept D&D afloat' because it ..."It 'kept D&D afloat' because it was 'what paying customers wanted.'"<BR/><BR/>Businesses that provide that tend to stick around....Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71356511093227191272008-12-04T21:08:00.000-05:002008-12-04T21:08:00.000-05:00I for one am happy for the transition that Hickman...I for one am happy for the transition that Hickman and others led. It "kept D&D afloat" because it was "what paying customers wanted." I personally despise the pointless old dungeon-crawls - Tomb of Horrors and the rest of the S series were the worst time I had gaming, next to a game of Gamma World led by Jim Ward itself. Ah, random death tables. I just don't find that fun. <BR/><BR/>Now, there have been excesses in "too much story" and railroading over time, but that's saying story is bad because there's bad stories. But just killing wandering monsters isn't fun for me for more than the first little while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com