tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8355223841926913663..comments2024-03-28T06:20:47.668-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Open Friday: As a Hobby, Are We Too Obsessed with "the Industry?"James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44122948758718604712011-07-04T00:47:43.534-04:002011-07-04T00:47:43.534-04:00There are a couple of levels to what is being refe...There are a couple of levels to what is being referred to as "the industry." There are companies that are owned by larger entities: this includes WOTC and Games Workshop, etc. Then there are all of the smaller operations, which range from single-person efforts to smallish businesses. In some ways, this has a resemblance to the mid-70's (I agree conceptually with ADD Grognard about this). But a really big difference between then and now is the vastly easier time gamers have in communicating with one another in comparison with back then. Back in the mid- to late-70's, the internet was a DARPA project and if you wanted the latest low-down on what somebody was doing elsewhere, you subscribed to <a href="http://www.conchord.org/xeno/aande.html" rel="nofollow">Alarums & Excursions</a>. So the "industry" back then had a great deal more control over information distribution than they do today.<br /><br />What's interesting to see is how WOTC, White Wolf and - particularly - Games Workshop are using marketing strategies to emulate this kind of information control. To "play D&D" today means buying into a pre-announced series of "delves" that together make a "campaign" - all of which is far more scripted than anything in the past. From an industry perspective, this is great. For <i>some</i> hobbyists, this is exactly what they want. Just not me.Victor Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05928494560036528653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65438840991502938332011-06-25T22:48:08.455-04:002011-06-25T22:48:08.455-04:00i said it on here before (dont post much) that peo...i said it on here before (dont post much) that people should concentrate more on just building the scaffolding of imagination instead of complaining about the rules/systems... use any system and build/have fun with your friends and anyone who enjoys to build also.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06816975649174987528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8769730252048988102011-06-21T22:42:30.100-04:002011-06-21T22:42:30.100-04:00The Dwimmermount and other books written/edited by...The Dwimmermount and other books written/edited by Our Host are part of the industry and the hobby, drawing from culture/fandom experience.<br /><br />Grognardia is part of the hobby and the culture/fandom. It influences the industry.<br /><br />Now, if Our Host were purposefully leveraging all his influence and every post to sell stuff, rather than having selling stuff be an incidental, you could say Grognardia was part of the industry. But he's more into influencing the heart and mind than the credit card, so it's more a matter of culture and movement than industry.<br /><br />Not that there's anything wrong with selling stuff with a blog; but the basic focus of this blog isn't that goal.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6135548182126427732011-06-18T23:46:37.080-04:002011-06-18T23:46:37.080-04:00The OSR is a classic example of how the hobby and ...The OSR is a classic example of how the hobby and business can coexist, go their separate ways, and then reunite.<br /><br />They're separate things, and one doesn't necessarily inform the other.<br /><br />The only reason to worry in the past was that network externalities could give you a "forced upgrade" position if you wanted to find a game.<br /><br />As OSRIC and Pathfinder have proved, the internet seems to have that cord rather definitively.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19793845881606663892011-06-18T16:13:45.785-04:002011-06-18T16:13:45.785-04:00"Movement", eh?
THE FIRST RULE OF THE O..."Movement", eh?<br /><br />THE FIRST RULE OF THE OSR: YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT THE OSR.Nerzenjägerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682799127301890341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44806654201727231412011-06-18T06:07:40.174-04:002011-06-18T06:07:40.174-04:00I don't do this. No gamer I know IRL does thi...I don't do this. No gamer I know IRL does this, or even cares a damn. So it's a non-issue for me & everyone I know.<br /><br />As far as the Internet goes, no I haven't seen a whole lot of industry-insider navel gazing. Discussions on RPGnet about what a jerk Kevin Simbieda is, or the Troll Lord guys are great although their editing sucks, are mildly interesting and don't bother me.<br /><br />As an academic teaching IP law I do sometimes seek out IP-related gossip from professional interest, the RPG industry is a good example of how TM and (c) Law get (mis)applied in real life within a minor creative industry. It's no worse that way than major industries like TV broadcasting, though.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2312857189629227722011-06-18T00:48:03.484-04:002011-06-18T00:48:03.484-04:00@ Barking Alien
I am right there with you on the D...@ Barking Alien<br />I am right there with you on the DC stuff. I've been trying to find good articles about what is going to happen. What's going to be different? Instead I find a bunch of corporate speak and industry reasoning about new readers and blah blah blah. <br />I just want to know why Capt. Atom's new book will be cool and why I should start reading Hawkman after his last few series have stunk. <br />I want cool info about the books, not information about the inner workings of corporate DC.<br />I don't mind if they want to complain about the books and give opinions. I like that, I just don't want the industry insider stuff. I hate that on the RPG Blogs too. <br />I want interesting opinion pieces from various points of view. I want to know what people think about it, not the business decisions behind it. Knowing the business end of it kind of takes the fun out of the whole experience of being a fan. <br />Unfortunately I think we all, myself included, step over that boundary from time to time. I think after so long being a fan it just comes as second nature.Geek Gazettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11041253917215490424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69247558401568947812011-06-17T23:43:22.176-04:002011-06-17T23:43:22.176-04:00James, you are pretty much the "face" of...James, you are pretty much the "face" of the OSR "industry," if there is such a thing! Seriously, on Wednesday night this week my fellow gamers and I were talking to a new guy who joined our game. He hadn't gamed in years, and he was in the store to get into a game of D&D Encounters or whatever they call it. We talked to him about C&C and the OSR and he jumped over to our game! Anyway, after we were done gaming, we told him more about the OSR and we basically told him that a blog called Grognardia is the heart of the movement.Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51207476037791227272011-06-17T22:30:33.448-04:002011-06-17T22:30:33.448-04:00James:
I don't have anything intelligent to a...James:<br /><br />I don't have anything intelligent to add to the discussion on "the industry", as it's not something I spend much time or energy thinking or talking about.<br /><br />The one thing I did want to comment on was the mention of your 2200 posts since 2008. That blows me away. So many "daily" blogs (on all kinds of subjects, not just RPGs) fail to deliver content consistently, but, day after day after day, you do. <br /><br />I don't always agree with your posts, and I'm not even sure I even consider myself an "old school" gamer, but I do appreciate the thoughtful, well crafted, impassioned posts. It's why Grognardia is my FIRST stop on the WWW when I log on every day.<br /><br />Not to mention, you tuned me into Clark Ashton Smith, whom I had never even heard of prior to finding your site but am now enjoying tremendously.80sGamerGeekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09273165960058841668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44514901239581760852011-06-17T19:02:00.165-04:002011-06-17T19:02:00.165-04:00Hmm, I've heard the expression 'Every time...Hmm, I've heard the expression 'Every time you roll, you roll with Gary' but never 'Every time you roll, you roll with 2nd ed'. Sure the changing rules and mechanics and direction of the 'industry' give us something to natter about, but when we're sat down, engaged and playing...discussing the finer huffings and puffings of the industry seems inconsequential at that moment in time. Heh, maybe I've just not been around long enough.IndianaJonnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02174622131630573300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50252604620235409992011-06-17T18:12:01.612-04:002011-06-17T18:12:01.612-04:00It's always interesting to hear what people ar...It's always interesting to hear what people are creating, but as for industry drama, I have no interest at all. I think the large audience of this blog speaks for itself.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21873625136296227222011-06-17T18:04:34.756-04:002011-06-17T18:04:34.756-04:00See, I avoid using industry in relationship to us ...See, I avoid using industry in relationship to us because of the possible confusion and that this scene is much closer to the '74-'85 scene, where companies were still being started in basements. By '89 it was pretty much over. I remember even in the small town that I grew up in we had a dozen places to buy RPG materials around us. I now live close to there and there isn't a place for almost 100 miles (and I'm not certain they are still open).<br /><br />Yeah, the internet changed everything. You can now build a game and have people playing online by tomorrow :)xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814063435676111475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65330127651507045062011-06-17T16:52:43.443-04:002011-06-17T16:52:43.443-04:00@ADD Grognard - Great post! I get unbelievably ti...@ADD Grognard - Great post! I get unbelievably tired of listening to everyone prognosticating about the death of our hobby and the shrinking fan base. Like every form of entertainment, gaming has been radically affected by the Internet. And like every other form of entertainment, it has taken a while to figure out how best to take advantage of the change, and the bean counters and big corporations are taking a huge hit from it. <br /><br />I have spent more money on new RPG product in the past three years than I had in the ten years prior. The vast majority of it has been from individuals or very small companies (e.g. LOFTP, Goblinoid, Mythmere). People like Raggi and Finch would not be able to do what they’re doing if our hobby was not thriving and growing. It is simply that the old definition of “the RPG industry” is no longer valid.<br /><br />Much like the music industry, big companies are no longer necessary for RPGs. You can get your product out to the world without them. The ability to put out an awesome product is no longer reliant upon being with a corporation. In fact, it usually has the opposite effect as creativity and freedom are stifled in the name of marketing. <br /><br />Also James, make no mistake - you are most definitely a huge part of the new RPG industry. You are one of the main mouthpieces of the movement. Hell, I can’t tell you how many books and pdfs I’ve bought based on the reviews and discussion on your blog. Not to mention all of the other OSR blogs you’ve led me to that have inspired even more purchasing!arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24770261760902258322011-06-17T16:11:30.348-04:002011-06-17T16:11:30.348-04:00I've never paid much attention. The move to th...I've never paid much attention. The move to the D20 system left a wound. A wound that I understand, forgive, and accept, but one that will never heal. So much so that when 4E dropped, my response was, "Oh, it's terrible? Indeed."<br />The game I love will never be revisited by the modern gaming industry, and is fairly unpopular among the gaming community. I have accepted this, and am at peace.joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12351926278188565029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44463204582618825982011-06-17T15:28:02.203-04:002011-06-17T15:28:02.203-04:00To me the difference is this and why it is discuss...To me the difference is this and why it is discussed:<br /><br />The industry represents a method of mass producing items for mass consumption. This is the heart of the industry. Mass produce items and sell as many as you can.<br /><br />Now this is a great idea for ball bearings. You want uniformity, the one made before to be the same as the one made after the one you are holding in your hand.<br /><br />When it comes to things of a creative nature the problems occur. That's why the music industry, film industry, etc has come under fire. They make product for mass consumption. There again, good for ball bearings, bad for art.<br /><br />Think about this:<br /><br />When a pop song succeeds it becomes a hit...right? Nope. It becomes a Radio Friendly Unit Shifter. A way to move more product units to increase profits. Anyone who doesn't yield this in sufficient quantity are released from the label, whether they have fans, good music, etc or not. It is ALL about the Benjamins.<br /><br />This is what ruined the hobby the first time around. It had grown so fast that it had inadvertently become an industry and had to operate under the creed of industry. Do whatever it takes to increase the customer base and increase profits.<br /><br />Pressure is applied, cave-in begins, game is ruined, future is created.<br /><br />This is not the industry. I come closer to being industry minded than anyone I have met in this group and I will not sacrifice what I'm working on to move one extra copy. I'm not going to get rich either way, so why not make what I enjoy. This is the very heart of the hobby business and how it began in '74. Remember-RPGs were not created and produced by corporate think tanks. They were made by guys in their basements and played by fans who were excited by this new form of gaming.<br /><br />The industry is crashing. The reasoning is that people are leaving TRPGs for MMOs, but I don't think that is the case. When we finally get a reporting method that can truly track where all games are being sold then many might be surprised to see that exodus hasn't been to MMOs. It has been to the OSR / Indie scene.<br /><br />http://www.icv2.com/index.php<br /><br />That is the main number tracker above.<br /><br />This is where they report the news:<br /><br />http://www.icv2.com/search/index.php?q=games<br /><br />And for those who say that we are not big enough to be tracked consider this: A few months ago the Dresden File RPG material had secured the 3rd place position in sales after Paizo and Wizards tied for first. Then it was revealed that that they had sold about 5,000 units total for the Qtr...barely over 1,000 a month. That was the 3rd largest seller of RPGs in the industry. Think about it. There isn't that much difference in sales numbers when you start actually crunching the numbers.<br /><br />The hobby is strong and getting stronger by the day.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814063435676111475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61843856938830459682011-06-17T14:55:58.237-04:002011-06-17T14:55:58.237-04:00James, I can definitely sympathize with your posit...James, I can definitely sympathize with your position. For the past five years I’ve been working as journalist covering the business and development side of the video game industry and focusing exclusively on the commercial aspects of gaming can really suck the life out of you. However, gaming is (or maybe was) largely driven by commerce so it is still important to know the ups and downs of the companies involved, if for no other reason than to document the history. The antidote is to keep the emphasis on the designers, writers, and artists. Their stories are instructive and creatively invigorating.Blayne Fleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11330429093758634994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10859919921645121702011-06-17T14:43:57.454-04:002011-06-17T14:43:57.454-04:00While the "Industry" does not have a dir...While the "Industry" does not have a direct effect on how we game it does have an indirect one. They will determine how many people join the roleplaying hobby overall as they have the ability to get it out to people. I started with 3.5, if it had not been for the "Industry" getting it out on a store shelf where I could buy it I would not be here commenting right now. The OSR may bring in a few new people by itself but a good number in the future will probably come from people who tried the "Industry's" flavor of the month D&D game and wanted something more or what have you. If no one with a big budget was pushing some form of D&D our little niche here would not have much of a chance to grow. Now I don't mind it being small but a community that is not growing is dieing.Akhier the Dragon Heartedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982936563965623813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41777330553476811342011-06-17T13:58:59.217-04:002011-06-17T13:58:59.217-04:00Yes, absolutely.Yes, absolutely.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55739024268297051622011-06-17T12:34:37.926-04:002011-06-17T12:34:37.926-04:00It is probably inevitable that hobbyists like us (...It is probably inevitable that hobbyists like us (i.e., RPG'ing geeks) will evince at least SOME interest in the "behind the scenes" inner workings of the larger corporations that produce the games we like (or don't like). Like you, I am much more a fan of talking about the gaming *experience* than the gaming *business*, but I don't mind a little industry gossip or insider info from time to time. <br /><br />Analogously, I am a major cinephile, and while I DO read Entertainment Weekly and lots of scholarly essays about film, the time I spend on that stuff pales in comparison to the time I invest in actually watching and talking about the movies themselves.Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6586798201456160662011-06-17T11:54:31.486-04:002011-06-17T11:54:31.486-04:00As a teenager I don't think I was really aware...As a teenager I don't think I was really aware of the "industry" beyond recognizing company names. Gygax's occasional crusades against heretics and apostates in the Dragon were really the only time I got a glimpse "behind the curtain."<br /><br />As years went by my interest in the industry probably increased along with my growing knowledge base of the hobby (and probably with my age too).<br /><br />I think what really got me paying attention, though was when I realized that decisions made by a couple of people in various company offices could have a real effect on what I played (or at least in what I could ever hope to see on a shore shelf). TSR's decision not to publish material they had for Dragonquest (my game of choice at the time) or the expulsion of demons and devils from the Monster Manual both made me start to pay attention to who was "interfering" as it were with my game.JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65762166140153697692011-06-17T11:08:32.264-04:002011-06-17T11:08:32.264-04:00I'd agree with cibet that Grognardia is part o...I'd agree with cibet that <i>Grognardia</i> is part of the industry--with the understanding that there's precious little daylight between that industry and amateur practice. James, your blog is Ground Zero for an emergent sector of the hobby (the OSR). While there's not a lot of money in the OSR (but then again as the WotC guys know there's not a lot of money in D&D in the grand scheme of things), there are companies and revenue streams and the like. In other words, the OSR has its industrial / commercial side. As several commentators have noted, the miniscule size of the hobby means that the line between amateur and professional is porous and constantly crossed in both directions. So discussions here play a role in shaping tastes and (I suspect in a sizable number of cases) affecting business plans. It's not that you're the Czar of the OSR, but you're the highest-profile voice out of the chorus of voices that makes up this side of the industry.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31591564947364048232011-06-17T10:56:07.576-04:002011-06-17T10:56:07.576-04:00I think interest in the industry may be a byproduc...I think interest in the industry may be a byproduct of age. It seems that as people get older, they have an increasing interest in looking under the hood, so to speak. <br /><br />I don't recall discussing the drafting or trading records of GMs as a kid; we just watched the teams we liked and talked about whether Bo Jackson could run over Lawrence Taylor. <br /><br />With age, though, it seems like more and more of my peers took a greater interest in what happened behind the curtain - maybe because we had more appreciation for how that impacted the success of the team, or maybe because it was more relevant to our lives. <br /><br />I mean, as a kid, you want to dream you could be Joe Montana. As an adult, you accept that you never could be, but maybe you think you could be a GM. <br /><br />I dunno ... bottom line is that I think the interest of the "OSR" in the industry is because we're all more or less the same age and our thoughts are naturally more business-oriented than they were as kids.Stephen Simpsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12872161469696334548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8201839273958744512011-06-17T10:54:02.588-04:002011-06-17T10:54:02.588-04:00I think about the RPG Industry for the same reason...I think about the RPG Industry for the same reason that I think about the BBC and the production of television sometimes when I'm talking about <i>Doctor Who</i> on my other blog. The product - whatever it is - is produced by someone in accordance with commercial realities, or in reaction against them. That's one set of factors that influence the way it's made and how it's received, and one level on which it works. It's not the only one and I'd be foolish to pretend it is, but it's not a level I'm prepared to ignore.<br /><br />That said, the RPG industry is less important to me than the wargaming industry, where players are more likely to run into an environment where Officialdom is some sort of enforced principle. In RPG terms it tends to be mentioned most often in a "you don't need all these splatbooks, they're there for the company's sake, not yours" context and largely ignored.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17139711541377548322011-06-17T10:48:42.514-04:002011-06-17T10:48:42.514-04:00Do we, as old school fans, spend too much time tal...Do we, as old school fans, spend too much time talking about what game companies or game writers are doing and why and not enough time just, you know, playing? <br /><br />Yes. Padre<br />For some reason I cannot log into this blog or a number of others with my google account.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72982727888293859262011-06-17T10:42:10.968-04:002011-06-17T10:42:10.968-04:00"Really?"
I do. The stuff that gets dis..."Really?"<br /><br />I do. The stuff that gets discussed around my game table has no industry impact. The stuff that gets discussed here (and other popular RPG blogs) has at least some, I'm sure of it. So to me that's a part of the industry.<br /><br />"Plus, the guys who gave us 4e all consider themselves "old school" and sincerely believe they took the game closer to its roots with the design they offered in 2008."<br /><br />Shocking. I would not have guessed they felt that way. Maybe if I were more involved with the 4E industry I would have. See what I mean? That's information only an industry insider would know. ;)cibethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16815626047653230637noreply@blogger.com