tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8358762695362559273..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Lights in the DarknessJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77007091109425769332023-06-05T13:00:57.865-04:002023-06-05T13:00:57.865-04:00Nyarlathothep seems to be actively malevolent, rat...Nyarlathothep seems to be actively malevolent, rather in the manner of a small boy who likes to torture insects for its amusement. That implies there's space for similar entities that like to open the window and let the human-bees fly out. The important element of Cosmic Horror I think is the relative insignificance of humanity - that we don't matter; not that everything is actively trying to kill us.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14602453224192581972023-06-05T12:52:37.708-04:002023-06-05T12:52:37.708-04:00That's a more Catholic/Tolkien way of putting ...That's a more Catholic/Tolkien way of putting it. :)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37173173170246647062023-06-05T12:50:04.412-04:002023-06-05T12:50:04.412-04:00Great post! I think this explains one reason why a...Great post! I think this explains one reason why attempts to create Great Old One family trees are so misguided. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18748121952204630982011-03-28T20:00:42.783-04:002011-03-28T20:00:42.783-04:00It's funny; I just read "Becoming Shakesp...It's funny; I just read "Becoming Shakespeare", by Jack Lynch, and it strikes me that a lot of the above response is similar to the response to the 17th and 18th century's need to perform rewritten and "improved" versions of Shakespeare instead of the originals.Prosfilaeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08567819936724569257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6736317432378939552010-05-11T14:54:36.868-04:002010-05-11T14:54:36.868-04:00but I've always found it ironic that he himsel...<i>but I've always found it ironic that he himself had a powerful attachment to people, places, and times that suggested that, however much he tried, he couldn't quite live out the conclusion to this worldview. </i><br /><br />That's a pretty poor false-dichotomy. I don't think the universe gives a tinkers damn about us or anything we do but I care about things and so I act.<br /><br />The realization that the universe is a cold impersonal petri-dish of physical laws and matter and that man is nothing more than a clever ape does not logically entail that one should sit in a corner and wait for death.<br /><br />Your comments will eventually be forgotten and all record of them destroyed with the decay of long millenia but that is not reason why I shouldn't act on my emotional and intellectual need to correct you.<br /><br />So it is that simply because lovecraft understood the ultimate futility of action doesn't make his actions to preserve or improve those things that he cared for while existing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78511589613689322082010-04-27T16:51:29.653-04:002010-04-27T16:51:29.653-04:00It's a mistake to believe that HPL had this un...It's a mistake to believe that HPL had this unremittingly bleak approach that shows through in all his stories. Not only do his protagonists often triumph, at least termporarily, against the evil, but the later stories in his life have the alien become surprisingly humanized and not necessarily even evil anymore. There are strong elements of that in <i>At the Mountains of Madness</i> which starts off creepy, but which then turns into a rather prosaic ethnologue of the Elder Things.<br /><br />Also, <br /><br /><i>They are NOT in this to put their own stamp on anything with the possible exception of de Camp (who is the only pastiche writer I think really deserves harsh criticism). </i><br /><br />Not just because of his true pastiche work; his pseudo-pastiche work smacks of pretentious snobbery too. By this I mean his "Pusadian Age" as his take on the Hyborian Age; his "Krishna" series as his take on Barsoom, etc. In his foolish attempts to "get those series right" he completely missed the point, and failed to realize what made them successful in the first place. Who wants to read Conan or John Carter in a dry, lecturely tone from some smug guy who's trying to show off how he thought through the logic of these stories more than the original authors did?<br /><br />I agree 100%; de Camp is an author I have little patience with. Lin Carter was also a spectacularly unskilled writer in most respects, but his honest, earnest fanboyism of his subject matter is infectious nonetheless.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33021755153978855042010-04-27T04:20:22.684-04:002010-04-27T04:20:22.684-04:00You're quite right, of course, that there is r...You're quite right, of course, that there is room for such an interpretation for a game, my point of view is stemming from the original works themselves, which I find to be thrilling reads but not for any heroism contained within as I've yet to really find any. To me, the stories are asking the questions of 'what if superstitions were real' and setting that up in a framework that makes it so. I see the subjects of the stories as being victims of their own curiosities that, even if survival is won, their minds are lost. Lose-lose. I strongly suspect Lovecraft's real point is that ignorance is bliss.<br /><br />I've not played the Cthulhu RPG's but think it might be fun to, I fondly remember an old Gamebook called Where the Shadows Stalk which is a somewhat Lovecraft-esque where you play a paranormal investigator that can indeed save the day but risks going mad trying to. Anyways, just some thoughts, your own analysis are fascinating as ever.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27099257346958190802010-04-26T20:42:13.278-04:002010-04-26T20:42:13.278-04:00Not to be rude to anyone here, but I do wonder how...<i>Not to be rude to anyone here, but I do wonder how much of the original source material is read. I don't find any cause for optimism in the Call of Cthulhu either, which essentially says be careful what facts you put together as a truly horrifying picture might emerge from them, the discovery of which might make people around you think you are insane and you'll be dealt with accordingly.</i><br /><br>It's true that Francis Thurston makes such an assertion, but it's also true that the stories he relates include one in which a Cthulhu cult is eliminated in Louisiana and R'lyeh -- and Cthulhu along with it -- is once again sunk beneath the waves. Do these events mean mankind is safe forever? Of course not, but neither do I think the story asserts that doom is a certainty. Thurston appears to believe it is, but his mind is also clearly unhinged by the implications he draws out from what he has learned. Is he right? Who can say?<br /><br />I am sure Lovecraft himself wouldn't have hesitated to say that the eventual extinction of mankind before the Great Old Ones was inevitable, but that's not the only conclusion one can legitimately draw from a text whose narrator is clearly unreliable. There is room, however slight, for a less fatalistic interpretation and it's one on which many an RPG treatment of HPL's ideas depends, I think.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53300157230054232472010-04-26T05:25:41.547-04:002010-04-26T05:25:41.547-04:00I feel compelled to commment on this, as I'm r...I feel compelled to commment on this, as I'm reading Lovecraft at the moment, that I do not see this optimism in his work at all. The curious case of Charls of Dexter Ward, for example, is very bleak, with its principle hero losing his sanity, the man who is the focus of much of the story being lynched by a mob and his modern descendant perhaps becoming possessed by his terrible and distant ancestor. The fact that a plot of some kind is indeed stopped really doesn't matter... it's not made clear what this plot would do if it were to ever reach fruition as those involved in it are already mad anyway... so it may have achieved nothing but their own demise had it gone ahead unchallenged.<br /><br />Not to be rude to anyone here, but I do wonder how much of the original source material is read. I don't find any cause for optimism in the Call of Cthulhu either, which essentially says be careful what facts you put together as a truly horrifying picture might emerge from them, the discovery of which might make people around you think you are insane and you'll be dealt with accordingly.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24043403891287576492010-04-24T18:26:04.422-04:002010-04-24T18:26:04.422-04:00Hey Mal! et al... Some great comments regarding t...Hey Mal! et al... Some great comments regarding this entry. My time is very limited these days, so I might be overly succint...<br /><br />Mal's take on Auggie is the right one, IMO. A fanboy run wild. A bit more like Lin Carter than LSdC. However, he shared with Ol' Spraguey the utter inability to grasp the fundamentals of the works which he pastiched.<br /><br />De Camp tainted the well. There is no argument against it. I can post links to a hundred REH Forum posts from Conan readers who say that they really had a hard time keeping what was REH straight from LSdC's pastiches. That was exactly how Sprague (a VERY intelligent person with a firm grasp of literary niceties) wanted it.<br /><br />Auggie's case is a different matter. Just as Sprague couldn't wrap his brain around REH's world-view, Derleth, not for lack of trying, just couldn't do so with HPL's legendarium. There ARE instances in HPL's tales where something like a Manichaeian world-view are possible ("The Dunwich Horror" is an excellent example), but Auggie took all of that WAY too far.<br /><br />Howard once said to HPL in a letter (I paraphrase) that he saw existence as a caged wolf biting against the iron bars of the universe. Another time, REH asserted that all that can be done in life is to bite the heel that stamps in one's face.<br /><br />The main difference between REH's and HPL's fictional universes is how their protagonists react to realizing the cosmos' indifference to their existence.<br /><br />DeuceDeucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00240457596421236288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53633601693683180112010-04-24T14:41:27.901-04:002010-04-24T14:41:27.901-04:00Yes, I agree. I did say de Camp is the one pastich...<i>Yes, I agree. I did say de Camp is the one pastiche writer of Conan tales that deserves harsh criticism and mostly it's the book we wrote about Howard, Dark Valley Destiny that earns him that criticism from me.</i><br /><br>His biography certainly is terrible, but how many people actually read it? Far more people, I suspect, read his and Lin Carter's bastardizations of REH's original texts, which were placed alongside their pastiches (and those of a few others), creating a "saga" of stories that has forever colored the way Conan has been viewed and treated by others. Despite the valiant efforts of many over the last 10-20 years and the publication, for the first time in many years, of the complete, unaltered texts of Howard's Conan stories, for most people Conan is the diluted, faintly ridiculous character De Camp and Carter turned him into and that's a shame.<br /><br />There <i>are</i> good Conan pastiches -- Karl Wagner's, for example -- but they're the exception rather than the norm. I'm not opposed to pastiches as such, but De Camp set so many bad precedents for what a Conan pastiche should be that I fear he's poisoned the well forever.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24516747502194884482010-04-24T14:22:10.688-04:002010-04-24T14:22:10.688-04:00The problem is that De Camp set a standard for Con...<i>The problem is that De Camp set a standard for Conan that showed little regard for Howard's writing or character and has made it an uphill battle to get the original material to be viewed on its own merits.</i><br /><br />Yes, I agree. I did say de Camp is the one pastiche writer of Conan tales that deserves harsh criticism and mostly it's the book we wrote about Howard, Dark Valley Destiny that earns him that criticism from me.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45257359982435262272010-04-24T13:57:31.498-04:002010-04-24T13:57:31.498-04:00He wasn't out to "distort" anything ...<i>He wasn't out to "distort" anything either. He just had a different voice, a different style.<br /><br />Like pretty much all writers.</i><br /><br>De Camp was perfectly capable of telling his own -- often excellent -- stories. Why did he feel the need not just to tell more stories about Conan in "a different voice" but to ensure that that different voice would never, if he had anything to do with it, be disconnected from REH's actual work? I don't think you quite grasp the magnitude of De Camp's simultaneous denigration of Howard (as a man and as a writer) and elevation of his own hackwork as equal to that of REH. <br /><br />I have nothing against pastiche if it's done well and after the fashion of the original, which is supposed to be the goal of writers working in pastiche. The problem is that De Camp set a standard for Conan that showed little regard for Howard's writing or character and has made it an uphill battle to get the original material to be viewed on its own merits. Even now, you will read newspaper stories that call Conan a "comic book character" or suggest that the 1982 film was his first appearance. <i>That</i> is what pastiche does and it's a problem.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67611568457590078902010-04-24T13:50:22.770-04:002010-04-24T13:50:22.770-04:00Brief and futile can be heroic, but the key factor...<i>Brief and futile can be heroic, but the key factor is that the investigators' faith in "the good" is purely arbitrary, delusional, and a function of their own tragically limited ability to encompass Reality. There may be no ultimate Meaning, and if there is, it may be far, far beyond their own limited abilities to apprehend.</i><br /><br>I think you're correct that this was more or less what HPL was intending, but I've always found it ironic that he himself had a powerful attachment to people, places, and times that suggested that, however much he tried, he couldn't quite live out the conclusion to this worldview. For a man whose writings proclaimed the utter insignificance of human concerns, he devoted a lot of emotion and mental energy into arguing in favor of certain of them as superior to others.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59008452456569890882010-04-24T13:45:44.277-04:002010-04-24T13:45:44.277-04:00God, I love Coc. :)
Now there's an ironic comi...<i>God, I love Coc. :)</i><br /><br>Now there's an ironic comic, given the subject matter of this post :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-843029762486605022010-04-24T13:44:46.161-04:002010-04-24T13:44:46.161-04:00Has anyone read R.E.H.'s 'unfinished' ...<i>Has anyone read R.E.H.'s 'unfinished' work, "Ghor Kin-Slayer" that Necronomicon Press printed?</i><br /><br>No, I haven't, although I intended to at one point and then just never bothered to hunt it down. Necronomicon Press was MIA for a long time, but I think they're back now, so I may have to grab a copy, if it's still available.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38599635442710648922010-04-24T02:23:15.759-04:002010-04-24T02:23:15.759-04:00"And really, looking at the guys writing Cona..."And really, looking at the guys writing Conan pastiches- Roy Thomas, de Camp, Lin Carter, Robert Jordan, Harry Turtledove- these are NOT pikers desperate for work."<br /><br />Yeah--but they *are* pretty terrible writers. Carter was a great editor, at least. But oof, what a bunch of hacks as writers.Michael (in NYC)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07812962280866467016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31852576415555091862010-04-23T21:56:58.076-04:002010-04-23T21:56:58.076-04:00Probably because most of them are terrible and dis...<i>Probably because most of them are terrible and distort the conception of the source material. This has clearly happened with Conan, for example, and it has, to a lesser extent, happened with Lovecraft.</i><br /><br />Distort it to whom? I see you complain about pastiches all the time.<br /><br />Do pastiche Conan fiction somehow distort your image of Conan?<br /><br />And most of the people I see complain about pastiches are more like you, rather than the poor confused souls.<br /><br />Most of them seem blissfully UNCONFUSED in fact. <br /><br />Most readers of Conan comics just know they like Conan, whatever they think that is. And if they enjoy it, who cares? <br /><br />You? because they're not having the "real experience"?<br /><br />Again- pastiches are great for what they are. They aren't the "real experience". But they can be good.<br /><br />And really, looking at the guys writing Conan pastiches- Roy Thomas, de Camp, Lin Carter, Robert Jordan, Harry Turtledove- these are NOT pikers desperate for work.<br /><br />They are NOT in this to put their own stamp on anything with the possible exception of de Camp (who is the only pastiche writer I think really deserves harsh criticism). <br /><br />They're in it because they love Conan, just like us, and would like to see new Conan, just like us (most of us). <br /><br />And of course, Howard himself was a pastiche writer. And his Cthulhu stuff was very different from Lovecraft's, just as all the Conan pastiches are different from him. <br /><br />He wasn't out to "distort" anything either. He just had a different voice, a different style. <br /><br />Like pretty much all writers.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84161937047578815272010-04-23T18:27:03.654-04:002010-04-23T18:27:03.654-04:00"In a meaningless universe, the Investigator&..."In a meaningless universe, the Investigator's motives and actions give their lives some meaning, no matter how brief and, ultimately, futile."<br /><br />Brief and futile can be heroic, but the key factor is that the investigators' faith in "the good" is purely arbitrary, delusional, and a function of their own tragically limited ability to encompass Reality. There may be no ultimate Meaning, and if there is, it may be far, far beyond their own limited abilities to apprehend.<br /><br />The key revelation is that the swatting of mosquitoes that land on one's forearm and briefly irritate is, to them, the grandest and most cosmic evil.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44011158563876792902010-04-23T17:43:38.961-04:002010-04-23T17:43:38.961-04:00Two points:
I actually find Price's comment...Two points: <br /><br />I actually find Price's comment to be one of the less useful insights he's written, as it elides the difference between survival through conflict and a good/evil dichotomy.<br /><br />I'd also say that "The Call of Cthulhu" isn't a great example of optimism - as with "The Shadow over Innsmouth," the horror has been put out but a personal tragedy still unfolds. I think that the optimistic attitude is much more a product of the RPG than the original fiction. Not that I disagree with such a view, though - it's likely necessary to run an ongoing game instead of bleak one-shots.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11601705921026690042010-04-23T15:40:49.196-04:002010-04-23T15:40:49.196-04:00@ James (RE original post): Very nice post, good i...@ James (RE original post): Very nice post, good insights. I agree and also find myself relaxing much of my nihilistic perceptions as I get older, too. Perhaps Howard and Lovecraft would have also, had they lived long enough!<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76277504656608296482010-04-23T12:54:02.003-04:002010-04-23T12:54:02.003-04:00XDPaul, that's genius, thank you. And now I re...XDPaul, that's genius, thank you. And now I really want to read that book. Does it have a whole chapter devoted to <i>the whiteness of the Worm</i>?richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64762473325928633052010-04-23T12:37:25.303-04:002010-04-23T12:37:25.303-04:00Delta Green is a perfect example to me of how Call...<i>Delta Green</i> is a perfect example to me of how Call of Cthulhu can be played "heroically". It's all about foiling the plans of the Great Old Ones and evading their minions and putting off your likely gruesome end for just one more day. Additionally, there's lots of gunfire, which lends a certain pulp action aspect that's lacking in a traditional CoC '20s game. The original CoC for me was always too investigative in orientation, which to me adheres a little too closely, if anything, to Lovecraft's stories to make an enjoyable game IMO.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77160503284253925642010-04-23T12:34:30.216-04:002010-04-23T12:34:30.216-04:00This reminds me of how someone once described the ...This reminds me of how someone once described the "Kult" RPG to me: "It's like Call of Cthulhu, but without that sense of hope." :)<br /><br /><i>But, in my experience, Call of Cthulhu is in fact one of the most unambiguously heroic RPGs ever written -- a game where people little different than you or I risk loss of life and sanity to give mankind another small chance at survival.</i><br /><br />I couldn't agree more, though it's a tough concept to get across to most people, who see only the "go insane and die" part of CoC. Even if you strip away the last bits of Derleth's influence, one can still "fight for good" against the nihilism that Lovecraft imbued his works with: In a meaningless universe, the Investigator's motives and actions give their lives some meaning, no matter how brief and, ultimately, futile.<br /><br />God, I love Coc. :)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60217318944091498472010-04-23T12:20:58.162-04:002010-04-23T12:20:58.162-04:00Lovecraft's tales aren't generally like th...<i>Lovecraft's tales aren't generally like that and I think there's value to remembering that many of his stories involve the protagonists "saving the day" by stopping the rise of R'lyeh or preventing the summoning of Wilbur Whateley's twin.</i> <br /><br />Precisely. Also your reference to the "long defeat" is spot on. <br /><br />The real-world concept of T.S. Eliot, C.S. Lewis, and Tolkien waging something of a "rearguard" effort against an outnumbering tide of deconstruction and decay also fits in very well, which is probably why they wrote, in a variety of ways, of the paradox of victory in the inevitable face of death.<br /><br />Lovecraft of course could not adopt at least something of this viewpoint, or else all his stories would have been very brief indead.<br /><br />The Case of Charles Dexter Ward becomes "How We Destroyed Dr. Willet," The Dunwich Horror becomes "The Rise of the Wonderful Whateley Boys" and the original CoC story itself is written in an unspeakable tongue and opens, and ends, with three infamous words:<br /><br />"Call me Cthulhu..."Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00851335695807313040noreply@blogger.com