tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8460807637407122044..comments2024-03-19T07:56:00.031-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: REVIEW: Lamentations of the Flame Princess Weird Fantasy Role-Playing (Part IV)James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81995981054002745742010-09-05T17:47:46.499-04:002010-09-05T17:47:46.499-04:00The lethality of the example adventure is due to b...The lethality of the example adventure is due to bad decision-making by the players. The examples of play (or at least the last one) demonstrate that 'player skill', and paying attention to the descriptions of your surroundings, is critical to success. That is why I like the example of play in the tutorial book, and why the TPK is a fitting end.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51305332835641993332010-09-05T16:19:47.231-04:002010-09-05T16:19:47.231-04:00I never see lethality as a good thing. For exampl...I never see lethality as a good thing. For examples, I cite Rolemaster (where a single severed artery, even on the first hit, pretty much meant death), and Cyberpunk (where a gun battle meant serious injury). Another would be 1st level D&D, where you didn't fight, but ran. Running is what Professor Harvey does when faced with a Deep One, not what Conan or D'Artagnan would do. <br /><br />If you want to demonstrate what real battle does to people and that it's not fun, I guess lethality is what you want. But I want my character to feel confident in situations where I personally would be looking for a place to hide.<br /><br />To me, lethality belongs in survival horror, it doesn't really belong in a game inspired by the works of Robert E. Howard, J.R.R. Tolkien or Fritz Leiber. But, as always, YMMV.Eric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24616802055395703722010-09-05T09:13:20.510-04:002010-09-05T09:13:20.510-04:00The playtesters seemed to all think it was rather ...<i>The playtesters seemed to all think it was rather lethal.</i><br /><br>It is lethal, yes, but I see that as a good thing.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30921734456175251252010-09-05T08:15:03.465-04:002010-09-05T08:15:03.465-04:00My main beef with the choose your adventure -intro...My main beef with the choose your adventure -intro game in LotFP wasn't that it was very lethal. Rather it was its sheer complexity. I tried it several times, and not once did I manage to keep accurate score of plot points, page numbers, etc. I had to backtrack a lot, since I kept getting confused about where I was and what my options were.<br /><br />Then again, since I haven't read this sort of critique from anyone else, I guess its just me. I've never been very good at keeping small details straight in my head. ;)<br /><br />Also, I think one of the corridors on the mini-maps is one square too long. As written, the right hand side of the dungeon doesn't align up with the central part when it re-connects.<br /><br />Regarding this: <i>" I do know for a fact that at least one newbie has bought the thing off a store shelf."</i>, I'm the one who sold the game to the newbie. It was a 30-something father and his teenage son. The father had played Rolemaster way back when, and was now returning to gaming, deciding to take his son (a total RPG newbie) with him. He had looked at 4e, but was put off by the strong emphasis on combat, and was shopping for a beginner friendly, rules-light game for him and his son to play together. I didn't take much of a sales pitch to sell him on LotFP. I really hope he likes what he got, and returns to the store to share his experiences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69138154994489428472010-09-05T02:23:05.881-04:002010-09-05T02:23:05.881-04:00>>What did you expect I'd dislike?
The...>>What did you expect I'd dislike? <br /><br />The playtesters seemed to all think it was rather lethal. Which was intentional - I want readers to get to one of the death scenes before being able to win.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17177295539462643042010-09-04T23:55:57.930-04:002010-09-04T23:55:57.930-04:00I must admit, I glossed over the early examples in...I must admit, I glossed over the early examples in the tutorial book, and only really paid attention to the last example of play. That I liked, and wished I could have found out how things worked out with the second party the players created.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24543972322619882582010-09-04T23:13:00.206-04:002010-09-04T23:13:00.206-04:00@james
it's this guy...
http://dndwithpornst...@james<br /><br />it's this guy...<br /><br />http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2010/09/heres-what-youre-missing.html<br /><br />...so, y'know, could go in any of -several- directions.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50586098131611631622010-09-04T22:21:11.826-04:002010-09-04T22:21:11.826-04:00I'll let you know how it works out.
Please do!...<i>I'll let you know how it works out.</i><br /><br>Please do! I am very curious to hear how things work out.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37164293754766443442010-09-04T21:20:17.648-04:002010-09-04T21:20:17.648-04:00New experiment:
I have a player who has rolled ma...New experiment:<br /><br />I have a player who has rolled many times in our AD&D/3.5 hybrid and now wants to be a DM.<br /><br />He asks questions along the lines of: What about sailing ships? Are there rules for that? Or "How do I get the players to start the adventure?"<br /><br />I hesitate to point him toward either the 3.5 or AD&D DM guides since both seem like they're likely to make DMing seem way more complicated than it actually is at east just to start out) and I'll have to keep saying "well you don't HAVE to do it like that..."<br /><br />However, LOTFP may hit the sweet spot: broad enough to cover everything a DM may feel they "need" to know, but narrow enough for it to not seem overwhelming.<br /><br />I'll let you know how it works out.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39048810256298767032010-09-04T20:17:20.434-04:002010-09-04T20:17:20.434-04:00As someone who plays a lot of new games and hasn&#...<i>As someone who plays a lot of new games and hasn't played a lot of old-school games, it taught me as much as the Referee book how a game of LoTFP should work. I agree that not many people new to RPGs will see LoTFP and learn from it, but you may have a good deal of people new to old-school gaming.</i><br /><br>Well, if Jim succeeds in opening up a new market with his approach, then more fool I. I readily admit that I have a hard time judging the utility of many aspects of his approach, so I'm willing to admit that I may be mistaken on this score. I can only say that, from my perspective, the example of play was unnecessarily long.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33209567194455202472010-09-04T20:15:08.737-04:002010-09-04T20:15:08.737-04:00The threads on rpgnet are indicative - in fact LoT...<i>The threads on rpgnet are indicative - in fact LoTFP hits many of the buttons for becoming an RPGnet darling, except for being D&D-based.</i><br /><br>Yikes! There's a bullet dodged :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27898191666232980152010-09-04T19:35:23.093-04:002010-09-04T19:35:23.093-04:00S'mon's point is a good one, and it's ...S'mon's point is a good one, and it's why I really liked the Example of Play. As someone who plays a lot of new games and hasn't played a lot of old-school games, it taught me as much as the Referee book how a game of LoTFP should work. I agree that not many people new to RPGs will see LoTFP and learn from it, but you may have a good deal of people new to old-school gaming.Clintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452689709362007202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77790716545449046692010-09-04T18:49:20.735-04:002010-09-04T18:49:20.735-04:00Re new players - I think LoTFP has clearly created...Re new players - I think LoTFP has clearly created far more of a buzz outside the OSR crowd than has any prior OSR product. It's the one thing my FLGS Leisure Games tried to sell me when I visited recently. The threads on rpgnet are indicative - in fact LoTFP hits many of the buttons for becoming an RPGnet darling, except for being D&D-based.<br /><br />I doubt it will bring in a huge number of players completely new to RPGs, only WotC's new Red Box can even hope to do that, but it looks to me like it's doing *something* significant.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64689880677200276882010-09-04T18:02:46.280-04:002010-09-04T18:02:46.280-04:00And I'm certainly not going to write a game th...<i>And I'm certainly not going to write a game that doesn't help the kind of person I was when I got started, ya know?</i><br /><br>I didn't expect you to say otherwise :)<br /><br /><i>I've been quite let down by every example of play I've seen in RPGs. The one in the AD&D DMG is probably the best I've seen (most others feel so stilted and fake that they don't serve their purpose), but most are too short to get across what play is actually like. I wanted to address that.</i><br /><br>As I said, it's a good example but it's very long. Maybe I underestimate others' attention spans. <br /><br /><i>And the value of all this is not just for the brand-new role-player. Many (most?) current RPGs have a completely different set of assumptions about the process of play, the player-Referee relationship, power level, character mortality, everything. The Tutorial communicates the assumptions of the game quite well to them, putting them on notice that it's something different from what they're used to.</i><br /><br>That's certainly a fair point.<br /><br /><i>I'm curious if you played through "The Second Adventure" at all? I was sure you'd complain long and hard about that more than the example of play. :)</i><br /><br>I did play through it and I enjoyed it for what it was. What did you expect I'd dislike?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42379744052855714322010-09-04T17:52:42.950-04:002010-09-04T17:52:42.950-04:00A few notes:
I didn't have a mentor when I st...A few notes:<br /><br />I didn't have a mentor when I started. It was just me and the books. And I was the one to introduce role-playing to at least a dozen other people. Just because D&D was a phenomenon in the early-to-mid 80s doesn't mean a pre-10 year old knew where to find other players. I had to make my group from scratch.<br /><br />And I'm certainly not going to write a game that doesn't help the kind of person I was when I got started, ya know?<br /><br />While there probably won't be many blind buys from people looking to get into the hobby, I do know for a fact that at least one newbie has bought the thing off a store shelf. I also know that several of "our" people have bought copies for other people with little-to-no RPG experience. That is a small minority, yes, but it's present nonetheless.<br /><br />As for the example of play...<br /><br />My wife thought it was a bit short. Or more accurately missing something. "You should have shown them solving a puzzle."<br /><br />I've been quite let down by every example of play I've seen in RPGs. The one in the AD&D DMG is probably the best I've seen (most others feel so stilted and fake that they don't serve their purpose), but most are too short to get across what play is actually like. I wanted to address that.<br /><br />And the one thing about RPGs that's the most difficult to explain is the relationship between player and character. I thought I'd show, not tell.<br /><br />And the value of all this is not just for the brand-new role-player. Many (most?) current RPGs have a completely different set of assumptions about the process of play, the player-Referee relationship, power level, character mortality, everything. The Tutorial communicates the assumptions of the game quite well to them, putting them on notice that it's something different from what they're used to.<br /><br />And there <i>are</i> a decent number of those "gamers who started later and usually dismiss the older games" types who have decided to give my game a chance. And I'm just as happy to get them on board as I am a true RPG newcomer.<br /><br />I'm curious if you played through "The Second Adventure" at all? I was sure you'd complain long and hard about that more than the example of play. :)JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75939547717649169862010-09-04T17:41:58.107-04:002010-09-04T17:41:58.107-04:00I think most examples of play are good for illustr...<i>I think most examples of play are good for illustrating GAMEPLAY, but fall short on how to deal with the out of character issues that pop up in a game. LotFP's does a great job, IMHO.</i><br /><br>You may well be right. What I'd like to hear from is someone whose first introduction to gaming is through reading this book. I'd love to know their reaction.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62757204176701250312010-09-04T17:40:58.539-04:002010-09-04T17:40:58.539-04:00This is the part I don't understand. Is anyone...<i>This is the part I don't understand. Is anyone really going to learn roleplaying from LotFP:WF? I have to think the bulk of the sales of this game are going to Old School players who've been reading his blog.</i><br /><br>I honestly don't know. I am sure Jim hopes that newcomers will learn to roleplay from his game and that's why he wrote the game the way he did. I think the odds of it are slim, given the game's expense compared to other RPGs, but who knows?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55524171215317327942010-09-04T17:39:11.031-04:002010-09-04T17:39:11.031-04:00I don't know what else to say except it was th...<i>I don't know what else to say except it was the part that I found the most fun to read.</i><br /><br>It <i>is</i> fun to read, but is it something that a newcomer would read and find useful? I can't answer that, since I'm far from a newcomer. I think a much shorter example could have covered much of the same ground and kept the Tutorial Book at a less intimidating length, but, again, it's hard for me to judge.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18703538724475867082010-09-04T16:54:01.622-04:002010-09-04T16:54:01.622-04:00I'm with Zak on the example. I think most exa...I'm with Zak on the example. I think most examples of play are good for illustrating GAMEPLAY, but fall short on how to deal with the out of character issues that pop up in a game. LotFP's does a great job, IMHO.Higgipediahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15898074416237354260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23689527914301348092010-09-04T16:51:15.097-04:002010-09-04T16:51:15.097-04:00This is the part I don't understand. Is anyone...This is the part I don't understand. Is anyone really going to learn roleplaying from LotFP:WF? I have to think the bulk of the sales of this game are going to Old School players who've been reading his blog. And at the price he needed to set for it, he's not going to get a lot of curious buyers who don't know how an RPg. Especially with the big name recognition product just released for $20. Certainly a Weird Fantasy primer, like the Old School Primer, would be a key component, but a how to roleplay section makes Raggi seem divorced from the reality of who his market is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34399492671362950542010-09-04T16:09:47.422-04:002010-09-04T16:09:47.422-04:00The"example of play" is my favorite part...The"example of play" is my favorite part. I think it's long because the idea is to inculcate people in Raggi's take on How To DM. Are TPK's ok? Yes. Are player right? sometimes. Will your players whine? Yes. How do you handle that? Like this.<br /><br />I don't know what else to say except it was the part that I found the most fun to read.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com