tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post9148253815796278994..comments2024-03-28T01:53:34.870-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: Warhammer Fantasy RoleplayJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57114553823332308072012-07-11T17:11:30.187-04:002012-07-11T17:11:30.187-04:00I'm really, really looking forward to it.I'm really, really looking forward to it.Rushputinhttp://warpstonepile.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31706756879940340802012-07-11T17:10:10.918-04:002012-07-11T17:10:10.918-04:00James,
Sorry to barge in on a very old thread he...James,<br /><br /><br />Sorry to barge in on a very old thread here, I'm the creator of Zweihänder Grim & Perilous. I was referred here to this specific thread by one of my play testers that follows your blog. If you have time, please take a look at what's going on with the development of Zweihänder at http://www.grimandperilous.com I wouldn't call it a true "retroclone" of Warhammer, but it comes pretty close to it. It borrows elements from all version of Warhammer and Dark Heresy, but embraces an old school feel. I'm a red box original dungeon master myself, and like others, I feel that there's something missing from "big box" publishers. It's why I decided to take my kitbashed version of Warhammer I'd been running for years and polish it up for publication. I'd love to get your thoughts on what's been presented thus far. Thanks, and I hope to hear from you soon.<br />Best,DanielDaniel Foxhttp://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=634617339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13638330949225924232012-07-11T15:16:40.553-04:002012-07-11T15:16:40.553-04:00I'd like to support the retro clone of Warhamm...I'd like to support the retro clone of Warhammer. There has been a lot of talk at Strike to Stun about Zweihander grim and perilous. It looks like wfrp 2e with a number of borrowed elements from Dark Heresy and Warhammer 1e.Dungeon Bastardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84587496493973299732012-07-08T18:44:57.947-04:002012-07-08T18:44:57.947-04:00Zweihander is a retro line of Wfrpg. Check out htt...Zweihander is a retro line of Wfrpg. Check out http://www.grimandperilous.comGrognard Juniornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80986721830748494572012-06-07T19:04:46.289-04:002012-06-07T19:04:46.289-04:00This is, I know, something like a year and a half ...This is, I know, something like a year and a half necro-post, but re: "<br />Someone needs to retro-clone this thing"... someone is. Zweihänder's (http://forum.strike-to-stun.net/viewforum.php?f=23&sid=8de19701b417a0fb740ef480de4288c0) a rewrite of 1E/2E WFRP, minus the "Warhammer." <br /><br /><br />Not entirely sure the end result will map well to what you want out of a game, but someone's working on it.Rushputinhttp://warpstonepile.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82892973579773026992011-01-30T15:17:49.800-05:002011-01-30T15:17:49.800-05:00Yep, I Liked it in the 1st and 2nd edition. With t...Yep, I Liked it in the 1st and 2nd edition. With the 3rd edition the thrill is gone, so sad they turned it into a card game with unncessarily difficult game mechanics...<br /><br />The race of humanity has does a lot of strange things to make more money (than it needs?)Der Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10987180874233031716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40838948487916561372010-08-29T07:35:49.227-04:002010-08-29T07:35:49.227-04:00Thanks for the thoughts...
> statement that 0D...Thanks for the thoughts...<br /><br />> statement that 0D&D was the GURPS of its days is pretty lame analogy. 0D&D was the game back in the days.<br /><br />No, not a lame analogy, but making a deliberate point that many people are either unaware of, or choose to ignore. Many new gamers have a pre-conceived impression either of what D&D /is/ at present and retrofit that, or else fall back into gaming cliches, whereas in those first few years (and just before) it was actually applied across a far wider range of fields/approaches with houserulings and variants being part of that culture. Yes, it /was/ the only game in town and thus D&D /had/ to be "more than it was", going by the incomplete ruleset in the books, because there was nothing else.<br />WHFRP, on the other hand, has a very strong identification with a particular milieu and approach to gaming.<br /><br />> I think that WFRP community could only benefit from retro-cloning and serious scholar research into game design decisions and their consequences.... If someone would bother to retro clone 1e and try to distill it to its pure essence it would show that this rules are no less thought out or even modern then its 'contemporary' cousin. <br /><br />Is that "pure essence" to be found only in the ruleset, or in any strongly-identified-with milieu? OD&D is definitely not the same as WHFRP in /that/ context.<br /><br />Also, is retrocloning now tending more towards an academic game design exercise or is it still more to encourage - what I believed was the initial purpose of the OSR - playing in the "old style", where one of the specific hurdles to doing so was deemed to be the lack of availability /at reasonable cost/ of the original OD&D ruleset?<br />Fragmenting 1e/2e WHFRP further without any obvious beneficial input to existing/ongoing work on those systems certainly doesn't seem to me to the best way of encouraging the "old school" community in that domain, anyhow...irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215185881501392755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22055468205353117522010-08-29T05:56:42.926-04:002010-08-29T05:56:42.926-04:00statement that 0D&D was the GURPS of its days ...statement that 0D&D was the GURPS of its days is pretty lame analogy. 0D&D was the game back in the days.<br /><br />I think that WFRP community could only benefit from retro-cloning and serious scholar research into game design decisions and their consequences. after all current wisdom is that WFRP3e is better because it is thought out accumulation of RPG design progress and thus obviously superior to earlier incarnations. If someone would bother to retro clone 1e and try to distill it to its pure essence it would show that this rules are no less thought out or even modern then its 'contemporary' cousin.opossum101https://www.blogger.com/profile/14918781180223282882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35124019259080350692010-08-28T17:48:50.120-04:002010-08-28T17:48:50.120-04:00> Enlighten me then.
> How is suggesting tha...> Enlighten me then.<br />> How is suggesting that there's a need for a retro-clone of one out of print RPG (namely WFRP 1e) any different than suggesting the need for another out of print RPG (namely D&D).<br /><br />I still don't think you've laid down any convincing reason for the "need" for a retroclone, James. "Someone needs to retro-clone this thing" reads as a strong call to me, and implies that you must have strong reasons for making such a call.<br /><br />Your claim that "The whole purpose of clones is to ensure that these games are available to future players, not just those who, through an accident of birth, were involved in the hobby when they were first released. As time goes on, there will be fewer and fewer second-hand copies of the original books available. What happens then?" still appears to be a weak one.<br />There are many cheap copies of the ruleset available (vastly cheaper than LotFP, anyhow, if that's claiming to be keeping OSR company) and, as noted, 20 years down the line who is going to ensure that these multiple retroclones are going to be more available than the "original" will be then?<br />A scenario where encouraging new players to play "old-style" on a given OSR system and then having that system lose general support or vanish isn't exactly ideal.<br /><br />Take, for example, your own observation that the new edition of S&W is still only another 300 copies in the first instance; of which a larger number may end up salted away by collectors than find their way into the hands of new-old school players.<br /><br />> Prior to the advent of OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, and others, there was just as thriving a community of OOP D&D players as you're suggesting there is for WFRP.<br /><br />No; and apologies if you misread or were unaware of the current state-of-play with regards to WHFRP 1e/2e. Even if not, "a number of valiant individuals" would hopefully imply that things were rather more restricted and tightly-knit than the xD&D juggernaut.<br /><br />> Does that mean that OSRIC or LL are "ripping the clothes off others' backs" too or is WFRP somehow special in needing protection? <br /><br />Yes. At present, with the publication of 3e WHFRP and Warpstone winding up, the 1e/2e WHFRP community is at a turning point and would be far more likely to benefit from a general profile boost and strong support for existing and new material for those old systems, rather than have an unnecessary multiple fragmentation scenario and accompanying uncertainties "forced" upon it. <br />(Even if "full" retroclones were possible given GW's extremely aggressive copyright protection policy, of course).<br /><br />xD&D (x<3), on the other hand, has a far wider community base and has grown up with a greater degree of house rules, variants and scenario applications since before day 1. That has /relatively/ little difficulty co-existing alongside and even if the OSR explodes, any fallout is unlikely to damage the "original".<br /><br />Question, aside: Is there an accepted, unwritten agreement that the OSR is also meant to encourage play of the original games, or is old-style RPG /playing/ the thing? If the latter, why is there a "need" for retroclones of other systems where the focus is meant to be on the gameplay rather than the "crunch"?<br />OD&D was the GURPS of its day, after all...<br />*<br />"The whole purpose of clones is to ensure that these games are available to future players" was an interesting statement, too, in the context of this question.<br /><br />02c as ever, anyhow. :)irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215185881501392755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5339615165304366322010-08-28T15:04:32.378-04:002010-08-28T15:04:32.378-04:00As you can imagine,I adore this game; it was what ...As you can imagine,I adore this game; it was what finally gave me the open door to leave D&D (which, to be honest, had grown stale for us) and try something fresh. I agree with everything you wrote about the careers system: its loosening of the typical character-class system carried flashes of brilliance (Rat-catcher is my personal favorite), and the rules, though not without some serious problems, were wonderfully simple.<br /><br />The crowning glory for me, though, was the setting itself: 16th-century Europe meets Hammer Films, Pulp fantasy, swashbuckling adventure, and post-modern humor in one package. The Renaissance is my favorite period of European History, and when you add giant ratmen* to the mix (the Skaven)... Well, take me, I'm yours.<br /><br />*(And snotlings! Who doesn't like snotlings?)<br /><br />And I'm glad you touched on the science-fantasy elements, because these were among the early big selling points for me: Amazons with laser guns; giant sapient frogs who changed the world with their super-science; the possibility of hidden remnants of that science in the dark corners of the world, or working in the present day, but misunderstood as magic (a la Tekumel). Back in the 70s I went through a period when I actually believed Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" nonsense, so you can bet I loved seeing it used in a game - <i>Chariots of the Frogs!</i> It's a shame GW largely scrubbed it from the setting in later versions. (In fact, starting with WFB 4, they pretty much homogenized the world and removed much of its quirky flavor. Hence my sympathies with your comments about what makes early D&D special, James.)<br /><br />As for re-cloning it, I don't know if it could be done with a D&D-style game, but it should be easily doable with basic D20 mechanics or (my preference) BRP. One of these days I'll get around to it.<br /><br />Great review, and thanks for showing WFRP some love.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49613226556484907002010-08-28T15:03:53.464-04:002010-08-28T15:03:53.464-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16476717328783336542010-08-28T15:02:49.470-04:002010-08-28T15:02:49.470-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27783261559297968842010-08-28T12:41:19.946-04:002010-08-28T12:41:19.946-04:00Not trying to stake out any moral high ground or a...Not trying to stake out any moral high ground or anything, considering I maintain a blog about a setting based on Wilderlands of High Fantasy. But there's a fine line between publishing material for use with someone else's hard work and simply co-opting it. I'm not comfortable at all with non-OGL retroclones unless the original creators have given their sanction, as that seems to step over the line. I think GW has been pretty clear that they consider the Old World and WFRP "theirs."<br /><br />The fact that it may be legal to copy rules without the OGL doesn't make it right. The OGL may be unnecessary, but it does lend legitimacy and sanction to D&D-based retroclones that I don't think the others can claim.<br /><br />Then again, OD&D itself was a pastiche of what could charitably be termed syncretism and not so charitably termed plagiarism, so what the hell do I know. :)Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155926145150934199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12023788293458833042010-08-28T12:28:52.478-04:002010-08-28T12:28:52.478-04:00There's no OGL for WFRP.
Nor is there one for ...<i>There's no OGL for WFRP.</i><br /><br>Nor is there one for <i>Gamma World</i>, <i>Marvel Super Heroes</i>, <i>James Bond 007</i>, and many other old games and yet we have retro-clones of them all.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60938383936975432492010-08-28T12:24:16.934-04:002010-08-28T12:24:16.934-04:00There's no OGL for WFRP.There's no OGL for WFRP.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155926145150934199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11773031502369869462010-08-28T11:21:07.211-04:002010-08-28T11:21:07.211-04:00Feel free to give it a try. It was a serious quest...<i>Feel free to give it a try. It was a serious question and your "someone needs to retro-clone this thing" could easily be read as just ripping the clothes of others' backs rather than having genuine, strong /justification/ for such a course of action from a fully-informed understanding of the current state of the game.</i><br /><br>Enlighten me then. <br /><br />How is suggesting that there's a need for a retro-clone of one out of print RPG (namely WFRP 1e) any different than suggesting the need for another out of print RPG (namely <i>D&D</i>). Prior to the advent of OSRIC, <i>Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry</i>, and others, there was just as thriving a community of OOP <i>D&D</i> players as you're suggesting there is for WFRP. Does that mean that OSRIC or LL are "ripping the clothes off others' backs" too or is WFRP somehow special in needing protection?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36872045578590194162010-08-28T07:58:39.540-04:002010-08-28T07:58:39.540-04:00I must admit (partially off topic) that I was migh...I must admit (partially off topic) that I was mightily disappointed when dark heresy 40k rpg decided to ditch career path advancement system in favor of more rigid and DnDish class advancement system. More so because they could have gone via traveler route that seems perfect fit for dark future of 40k.<br /><br />it is one instance in which it seems that devotion to the roots of our hobby could have served as useful design tool for contemporary game.opossum101https://www.blogger.com/profile/14918781180223282882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60535959692146106722010-08-27T13:45:46.357-04:002010-08-27T13:45:46.357-04:00> Indeed, those are completed. There's noth...> Indeed, those are completed. There's nothing like those prices nowadays,<br /><br />Less than 48 hours ago for one of those noted above at 99 pence, and two others in the past week for cheap. It's not possible to search for "Roleplaying" in body text for completed listings on eBay, so I probably missed out on quite a few.<br /><br />> likely because this apparently maligned WFRP community are holding on to their books with almost supernatural ferocity. <br /><br />*lol* Warpstone effects?<br /><br />> But I shall keep looking. <br /><br />Good luck procuring a bargain from the mutants. If you blanket-bomb lowball snipes, it really shouldn't take that long (barring any additional effects from OSR blogging, that is ;)irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215185881501392755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37721028249383457092010-08-27T11:49:29.359-04:002010-08-27T11:49:29.359-04:00I've played 2e and now I'm playing 3e. I&#...I've played 2e and now I'm playing 3e. I've heard good things about the first edition but 2nd edition is a really poorly designed game system. Obviously teh world and the career paths are a great idea and always fun (I bought the bestiary for this reason alone, I've never used it), but the 2e system is completely broken. Boring, long-winded combat followed by non-combat scenes where you literally never get anything done because you're so weak and useless. <br /><br />On the other hand, 3e has a whole new style of playing - much more abstract, much more role-playing focussed - that is very, very cool. I'm not sure yet if it's completely broken or not, but it's a very very good idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71456354896558372092010-08-27T09:11:50.142-04:002010-08-27T09:11:50.142-04:00Scott: "I haven't read the WFRP 1e rules ...Scott: "I haven't read the WFRP 1e rules in forever, but didn't the crits only kick in when the character's Wounds pool was exhausted?"<br /><br />That is correct. That meant that every time you killed someone, you got to flip to the crits table and see how they died. Also, character's Wounds pools were depleted <i>very</i> quickly. One hit from a big weapon was enough to deplete any starting character's wound pool completely. Even at the higher levels, you didn't have too many wounds. An unlucky character in WFRP would accumulate penalties like missing limbs, crippled legs and gouged-out eyes, which would make advancement fairly difficult.<br /><br />In the end, I found that it was a fairly severe game. The lucky characters were those that lived, while most had short, brutal careers. I'll never forget the end of the first adventure we ran, in which 4 of 5 characters died in the final encounter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31477164827906555542010-08-27T02:26:47.553-04:002010-08-27T02:26:47.553-04:00Indeed, those are completed. There's nothing l...Indeed, those are completed. There's nothing like those prices nowadays, likely because this apparently maligned <i>WFRP</i> community are holding on to their books with almost supernatural ferocity. But I shall keep looking.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80053785697080085462010-08-26T17:11:00.086-04:002010-08-26T17:11:00.086-04:00@kelvingreen: I've picked up a couple at 99p e...@kelvingreen: I've picked up a couple at 99p each (rounded up heavily), another at around £2 and the French hardback for the slightly more. Yes, 1e goes cheaper than 2e but ruleset prices are well within bounds of new productions rather than the $100+ for an OCE. (UK or Europe only listings on ebay.co.uk sometimes helps).<br /><br />At a casual glance for completed sales;<br /><br />1e, under £1<br />http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280546420410<br />http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160468992938<br />http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140442624923<br /><br />2e, £5<br />http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220658276395irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215185881501392755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6890121694255227572010-08-26T16:52:04.569-04:002010-08-26T16:52:04.569-04:00@Baron Greystone
(Sorry to everybody else for hij...@Baron Greystone<br /><br />(Sorry to everybody else for hijacking the thread with meetup talk)<br />Your contact link isn't working. I'm in the Hollywood/Los Feliz area. Get in touch.<br />http://www.google.com/profiles/simonbreakTHE EUROPEANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640477793903574416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46779839793431935962010-08-26T16:06:27.215-04:002010-08-26T16:06:27.215-04:00How about just dumping the "official" na...<i>How about just dumping the "official" names for the thinly-veiled cultures, and running a game using a map of Europe? </i><br /><br />My big gripe with the background (and first on the list of things to be changed) was to dump polytheism. The human societies are so close to historical ones that the whole a-god-for-every-facet thing just seems wrong.<br /><br />I'd probably go for a thinly-disguised Rhine valley (just like WFRP's thinly-disguised Rhine valley) with a lot of influence from Lone Wolf's Magnamund. And try and complete my On Her Majesty's Secret Service-inspired Warhammer Switzerland that I've been thinking about for 15 years as well!Coopdevilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219253658967958289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6441463006386521322010-08-26T16:01:12.780-04:002010-08-26T16:01:12.780-04:00As for cloning the background, recently I've t...<i>As for cloning the background, recently I've thought about jettisoning the whole thing and making a parallel universe copy of the Old World. Keep the collapsed Warpgates at the poles, the Erich von Daniken ancient astronauts, the renaissance Holy Roman Empire flavour but in a different world with different geography, religions and nation states. That way I feel I could keep the Warhammer World feel (as it was in the 1980s) without being constrained by the "official" fluff. </i><br /><br />How about just dumping the "official" names for the thinly-veiled cultures, and running a game using a map of Europe?Scallop Skulled Skaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09614954870582728737noreply@blogger.com