tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1030342493493086911..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: That Old School ReligionJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31780066144036782812011-10-22T07:46:49.827-04:002011-10-22T07:46:49.827-04:00"As a figure from folklore, wouldn't a dw..."As a figure from folklore, wouldn't a dwarf who became an atheist just rip open a hole into the fabric of reality and disappear?" <br /><br />I don't see the connection. Believing in deities is not a requirement for believing in the supernatural.<br /><br />The issue of the missing angels in MM seems pretty simple to me: the idea of an evil campaign had not been seriously considered (or had been and was rejected). Thus there was no need to provide high-level opponents for a party of evil characters.<br /><br />Monotheism and polythesism do not sit well together. In the real world the former has cut through the latter like a knife through Caesar and the vast majority of poly-theistic religions are dead and gone for the simple reason that it's easier to believe that one mysterious figure isn't fixing your woes than that a whole committee have overlooked you and, anyway, people really only care about the afterlife and the admin staff are by-the-way. <br /><br />But in the fantasy world, where the gods (or, in the case of Tekumel, SOMETHING) does indeed exist the monotheistic option only works in the limited Old Testament sense of there only being one deity who your/your people/your nation/your clan is allowed to worship. Which, given the length of the OT, seems to be a workable setting.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48879222492375110402011-10-21T11:49:49.319-04:002011-10-21T11:49:49.319-04:00Ed wrote, "I ran an atheist dwarf in a campai...Ed wrote, "<i>I ran an atheist dwarf in a campaign...</i>"<br />As a figure from folklore, wouldn't a dwarf who became an atheist just rip open a hole into the fabric of reality and disappear? It's like sticking a black hole into a bag of holding; you just shouldn't do it, man!Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70790273052646405192011-10-21T11:14:50.040-04:002011-10-21T11:14:50.040-04:00I ran an atheist dwarf in a campaign that was choc...I ran an atheist dwarf in a campaign that was chock full of gods. In fact the characters became sort of god collectors, housing about a dozen different gods in their headquarters and starting at least one major religion. It was quite interesting.Ed Keerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15427371337512386674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91598534723266573092011-10-21T09:53:34.577-04:002011-10-21T09:53:34.577-04:00I doubt Gary wrote it, but it was there and thus c...<i>I doubt Gary wrote it, but it was there and thus can be considered "official."</i><br /><br><i>Dragon</i> articles were never considered official, unless Gary wrote them <i>and</i> he specifically stated that the article was official.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72750327869740542372011-10-21T09:47:58.510-04:002011-10-21T09:47:58.510-04:00Another uqestion this raises is wether the God(s) ...<i>Another uqestion this raises is wether the God(s) actually exist or not in a paricular campaign setting.</i><br /><br>The unquestioned reality of the gods is an aspect of a lot of fantasy settings I don't much like, which is why, in my Dwimmermount campaign, there's no such thing. It's well-established, for example, that the gods don't have anything to do with granting clerical spells and there are plenty of people who doubt the existence of any deities and with good reason -- no god has ever taken a direct role in history so far as anyone can prove.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75523362818035265352011-10-21T09:42:47.578-04:002011-10-21T09:42:47.578-04:00Forgive the nitpicking, but I scratched my head at...Forgive the nitpicking, but I scratched my head at this line:<br /><br />"Consider that, despite the inclusion of lots of devils and demons in the game, there were never any official stats for Lucifer/Satan."<br /><br />I thought for sure there was an early issue of Dragon with stats for Lucifer/Satan. I doubt Gary wrote it, but it was there and thus can be considered "official."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90374063459027729232011-10-21T09:19:29.762-04:002011-10-21T09:19:29.762-04:00Another uqestion this raises is wether the God(s) ...Another uqestion this raises is wether the God(s) actually exist or not in a paricular campaign setting.<br /><br />I've always thought that if particular deities did exist and this existance was evidenced by their priest's powers (e.g. spells) and by miracles, servants of the deity appearing etc. then the general people would go out of their way to avoid annoying the gods in any way. Something I don't think you tend to see happening in mahy fantasy campaigns.Red_Cardinalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12119321537913665046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52693098506183600162011-10-21T07:40:38.892-04:002011-10-21T07:40:38.892-04:00The nice thing about historic Christianity is that...The nice thing about historic Christianity is that there were so many different varieties of it, each with it's own beliefs as to the nature of existenece, that there is plenty of variety to choose from. It's something a lot of people forget when they use Christianity (or any other monothesism in a game).<br /><br />Most of my fantasy campaigns have been monothesisms and worked very well. I make no attempt to specify a dogma or belief system and just consider it something everyone partakes in (unless they specifically don't) and that it's not worthy of mentioning. In fact the first game didn't really define anything about the religion save that the Order of Mitra, named after a saint-hero, was the source of clerics - the fighting arm of the Church. Everything flowed from that, including at least two heresys and various heterodoxies that came out in play. Even now, I don't really know the actual strictures and belifs of the church because it waasn't important. Save that Law and Civilization were important.<br /><br />The standard Gygaxian D&D religion always struck me as much more polytheistic than pantheistic, despite each god having specific seperate aspects of life that they govern. In other worlds their religions tend to be run under monotheistic lines, with little interaction between the worshippers. Partly this is the function of the strongly-typed alignment system, and partly because few people have experience of pantheistic worship these days.<br /><br />For example, in pantheistic worship, if I were to go on a sea voyage I might make a small sacrifice to the God of the Sea before I set out in the hopes for a good voyage. Even if I wasn't a dedicated worshipper of the Sea God. Similarly, if my wife was giving birth for the first time I might raise a shrine to the Goddess of Childbirth in the garden of my estates. And that's something which rarely happens in D&D games. I think many gamemasters would consider it a heresy (and that is something that derives very strongly from the proscriptions of the judeo-christian god).<br /><br />Instead Gygaxian D&D seems much more like the old Sumerian gods, where each city had their patron god or goddess, effectively a state religion. Lots of fairly independent monotheisims. A few friends use this system and it works very well, and provides a very sword & sorcery feel to a game.<br /><br />Arnesian D&D from what I can gather had a much more monotheistic approach, but the Church was definitely a human thing. And something of a joke on the nature of the medieval Church itself.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30633678307121411292011-10-21T06:00:32.419-04:002011-10-21T06:00:32.419-04:00An omnipotent deity doesn't have to be a jealo...<i>An omnipotent deity doesn't have to be a jealous and wrathful God. He could have created lesser gods and demigods to run things while he takes a long nap. Even the dark gods and devils could have their place in the universe. That rebellious angel could have the over-god's permission to make mischief... he may just be a little too good at his job. Remember that the Omnipotent God of the Bible allows Satan to exist and do his evil. That would probably make him True Neutral though. Or maybe Lawful Neutral since he's got so many rules for his followers.</i><br /><br />I suppose something like this possible. Tolkien had Eru (the true God in his Catholic view) but also the Valar underneath in the context of pre-Christian pagan Middle-Earth. Still, in the '80s Greyhawk/Mystara worlds, it just never seemed plausible to me.Loren Rosson IIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002312216839280976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24166622028203447862011-10-21T03:10:35.257-04:002011-10-21T03:10:35.257-04:00Even if the "canonical" D&D setting ...Even if the "canonical" D&D setting is polytheistic, I thing there could be several reasons why religion in D&D games often adopts the trappings of some kind of "christianity-lite":<br />First there is Ye Olde D&D Worlde setting, and by that I mean the pseudo-medieval D&D default setting: christianity was an essential feature of the Middle Ages, and it needs some work to re-imagine a polytheistic medieval world.<br />Second, everything in the "Cleric, classic" just screams "medieval christian priest" : in all my games every cleric PC/NPC - be he odinist, pelorian, olympian or else - eventually morphed into a "brother Cadfael-like" minister, being adressed by the players as "father", and adopting the mannerisms of a medieval vicar.<br />Third, medieval christianity, in its own time, also was some kind of cultural mash-up; just like in a D&D world: it was originally a semitic religion, wearing the old clothes of the former roman state-religion, and adopting/assimilating heathen holidays, customs and saints...porphyre77https://www.blogger.com/profile/07620350717226228078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20219142694631196802011-10-21T03:02:37.336-04:002011-10-21T03:02:37.336-04:00Christianism: Monoteist.
D&D: Politeist.
End ...Christianism: Monoteist.<br />D&D: Politeist.<br /><br />End of discussion :)José Joaquín Rodríguezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05419481758371621113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7016634945822693642011-10-21T00:00:59.558-04:002011-10-21T00:00:59.558-04:00"Honestly, how do you expect Yahweh to share ..."Honestly, how do you expect Yahweh to share the Seven Heavens with beings like Bahamut and Moradin?" <br /><br />Even among Gods there are different levels of power. Moradin could be the spiritual focus of the dwarves. Sort of like a Dwarven Jesus, the same could go for Bahamut. Or those gods could be the way each respective race (Dwarves and Dragons) view Yahweh. Moradin and Yahweh could be the same entity, it's just that humans would see Yahweh and Dwarves would see Moradin.<br /><br />An omnipotent deity doesn't have to be a jealous and wrathful God. He could have created lesser gods and demigods to run things while he takes a long nap. Even the dark gods and devils could have their place in the universe. That rebellious angel could have the over-god's permission to make mischief... he may just be a little too good at his job. Remember that the Omnipotent God of the Bible allows Satan to exist and do his evil. That would probably make him True Neutral though. Or maybe Lawful Neutral since he's got so many rules for his followers.By The Swordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16799389743529116360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9882231385265797672011-10-20T21:30:23.690-04:002011-10-20T21:30:23.690-04:00I always rejoiced in the polytheistic world-view i...I always rejoiced in the polytheistic world-view imposed by <i>Deities and Demigods</i> and <i>Manual of the Planes</i> back in the '80s. As a fan of the these, I could never credit monotheistic deities like Yahweh or Allah as being compatible with D&D. Honestly, how do you expect Yahweh to share the Seven Heavens with beings like Bahamut and Moradin? <br /><br />Never knew Gygax flirted with Watchtower. Interesting.Loren Rosson IIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002312216839280976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47002681280839665562011-10-20T18:20:24.828-04:002011-10-20T18:20:24.828-04:00Whatever the reasons, I see this and the linked-to...Whatever the reasons, I see this and the linked-to article, and it reminds me of just how much society has changed from the world that existed when D&D was born.David Griffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06629314279592541401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5941615579371831152011-10-20T17:54:43.395-04:002011-10-20T17:54:43.395-04:00That's again explanation enough for the charac...That's again explanation enough for the characters, maybe even for the players. But not for the gamemaster if you want to understand what happens.<br /><br />At least to me. I like to know how my gameworld works, if only to be consistent when I have to rule on the fly about things that are not prepared or explained in the rules.Bhoritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18240688745758454387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67349112634098517342011-10-20T17:44:43.085-04:002011-10-20T17:44:43.085-04:00@1d30 "If your dogma says there aren't an...@1d30 "If your dogma says there aren't any other gods, there is going to be some explanation for other clerics receiving spells and Commune responses."<br /><br />But is there really going to be any interest in dogma or theological debate, when getting the goods is not actually a matter of knowing the right god, but of knowing (any) cleric? <br /><br />Consider that although there seems to be very strong proof for the existence of God/gods in D&D, there's generally less rather than more respect for religion in most D&D worlds than in real life. "C'mon padre, give me a cure here!"Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17964086738610635872011-10-20T16:46:51.031-04:002011-10-20T16:46:51.031-04:00That way, you give explanations for the characters...That way, you give explanations for the characters, who can have conflicting views and each one thinking he is right. But as a gamemaster, you have to know the truth, because it has game consequences.<br /><br />I tend to use the Fantasy Wargaming explanation: gods are the result of peoples believing in them (they are powered by the faith of the faithfuls and they are the way peoples see them).<br />It explains monotheism and polytheism being true at the same time.<br />It explains local gods (kind of a nature god with power only in a sacred wood).<br />It explains that new religions appear and have stronger powers than dwindling ones.<br />It even explains why mass conversion by force, torure or mass murder (like Charlemagne with the saxons) can be a viable way for a church to extinct a concurrent religion whilst boosting its god power (and by consequence the church power).<br /><br />And all that without the characters having to know anything about it. They can believe in their own mythologies, see proofs that they are right and still have other mythologies working as well.Bhoritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18240688745758454387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50799441250956655452011-10-20T16:04:58.424-04:002011-10-20T16:04:58.424-04:00I think one way of looking at it is like Indiana J...I think one way of looking at it is like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Here we have a cult worshipping through human sacrifice etc. The main human dude has powers - such as reaching into someone's chest to rip out their heart and keep it beating. It's never really questioned in the movie. Likewise we have a positive magical force in the three stones that keep the village healthy and prosperous, without which it reverts to its normal level of dumpiness. Again, the movie supports them as being actually magical - after all, they even glow. While it's possible the guy was doing the typical "psychic surgery" thing where they pretend to pull scraps of bloody pork fat out of your belly and call it tumor removal, I don't see how they could pull off defoliation / refoliation and the glow based on the stones. So let us assume that within the scope of the movie, magic is real. <br /><br />Second point, what part of Christianity allows for both of those kind of effects? Perhaps the cult was really just demon-worshippers and "bad witches" instead of worshipping a nonexistent from Christianity perspective Kali. But from whence do the stones' powers come from? Those people aren't Christian and the stones aren't biblical, so ...<br /><br />The result must be that in the movie, that magic exists regardless of what Christians in the movie believe. <br /><br />Now we also have the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail in the other two movies. Clearly either the movies are saying the biblical stories are true or else they're stories about older artifacts but describe them accurately. <br /><br />What we end up with is an environment where Christian magic exists, but also non-Christian magic exists. In Indiana Jones, the Christians are just plain wrong about some things. Among those are the existence of magical and alien entities that don't fit within the Christian dogma. <br /><br />That's how I handle religion in D&D. It's in reality a mess of gods, of pantheons and individuals and smatterings of demigods worshipped by isolated cults. If your dogma says there aren't any other gods, there is going to be some explanation for other clerics receiving spells and Commune responses. Maybe your dogma is that the other gods are just demigods, and yours is the real main one. Maybe you believe those other clerics are charlatans or deluded, and just receive spells from lesser entities from beyond the stars or the veil of the Astral or Ethereal. Maybe they're secretly some kind of magic-user instead. Point is, your character can believe whatever he likes, but that doesn't make it a reality. <br /><br />Take a real-world example. Two religions both believe they are the only true religion. Anyone worshipping any other religion is deluded and won't achieve [insert religious benefits here] and will instead get [insert penalties for nonbelievers here]. They can't both be right. They could both be wrong, or one wrong and the other right. It's like a 50% chance. But what happens when you have 100 religions that are all mutually exclusive? Number of members isn't necessarily a clue as to truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9694888179930418022011-10-20T15:42:23.386-04:002011-10-20T15:42:23.386-04:00At the time, I always tought that not including el...At the time, I always tought that not including elements of christianity was not the result of wanting to be non offensive (because wathever mythology elements you use, christian or hindou or wathever, you are going to offend someone), but because a working monotheist god alongside working polytheist pantheons don't make sense. <br />If there are several gods granting visible powers to their followers, then the mono god is evidently deluding himself about his uniqueness. And if the mono god is the real one, then the pantheons are probably demons parading as gods. Either way, it destroys the setting for the players choosing clercs or paladins.<br /><br />But maybe I was reading too much into this.<br /><br />BTW, the only good explanation I have seen of monotheism and polytheism alongside in a logical and consistent way was in Fantasy Wargaming.Bhoritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18240688745758454387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26259552014647055362011-10-20T15:28:21.565-04:002011-10-20T15:28:21.565-04:00@Stuart - Someone should do a cult write-up on The...@Stuart - Someone should do a cult write-up on The Church of the Polearm. :)Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55564176915722284572011-10-20T15:13:00.269-04:002011-10-20T15:13:00.269-04:00If there's a dominant religious ideology in AD...If there's a dominant religious ideology in AD&D it's got to be The Church of the Polearm. ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59702990772969276922011-10-20T15:03:31.717-04:002011-10-20T15:03:31.717-04:00This probably meant he was a little more comfortab...<i>This probably meant he was a little more comfortable with writing Hell and the Abyss because he saw Dante as having the same mythological roots as the pagan religions.</i><br /><br>That's an interesting perspective. I wasn't aware that Gary had been raised in Adventism, though I did know about his association with the Jehovah's Witnesses. This certainly puts a different spin on some of these issues.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72845048047432723322011-10-20T15:02:44.813-04:002011-10-20T15:02:44.813-04:00I completely agree with you, Padre, but I'd ex...I completely agree with you, Padre, but I'd expand it out even further. There is plenty in the hobby for anyone of any religion to find questionable or potentially offensive, in my opinion. What's that saying, something about if you're looking to be offended, you will be? <br /><br />I am a pagan, and while I could be offended by many things in Deities & Demigods, I instead remember that what's written in a game book does not have to represent my own personal spirituality. In particular, the alignments of various deities make me roll my eyes, but at the end of the day, they're meant to be fictional representations in a fictional game world, not realistic portrayals of real life beliefs (ancient or modern). They are spurs to the imagination, tools for creating a fun and entertaining game.<br /><br />Word Verification: Gensha -- a D&D Ganesha with the serial numbers filed off?Dennis Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377702443439335442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36937788322877744172011-10-20T14:59:33.927-04:002011-10-20T14:59:33.927-04:00Jim,
That's an interesting quote from Gygax, ...Jim,<br /><br />That's an interesting quote from Gygax, though a very odd one, too, given that he continued to resist ever including anything more explicitly Christian in his various fantasy worlds.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11724102255805663582011-10-20T14:23:52.762-04:002011-10-20T14:23:52.762-04:00I was really hoping to encounter some hidden heres...I was really hoping to encounter some hidden heresies in D & D but instead all I got was a magic item randomly generated from a chart.<br />But seriously, there is plenty in the hobby for anyone with Judaic-Christian roots to find questionable or potentially offensive. It comes down to what one focuses on and to some extent how easily offended one chooses to be. I wish I had more time to comment and share some thoughts on this, since it impacts my own life & ministry.Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05722958681098483324noreply@blogger.com