tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1384621054688963927..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: 12,000 A MonthJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23160020440598339972010-09-06T05:35:20.666-04:002010-09-06T05:35:20.666-04:00James said:
"WotC is even more secretive abou...James said:<br />"WotC is even more secretive about their sales figures than TSR ever was."<br /><br />Which is a pity. I live a stone's throw away from WotC, and back around the time Magic: The Gathering hit it big, they were very open about their future plans, business models, etc. Being part of a gaming magazine at the time, they were very interested in showing us around, and showering us with free product, sales figures, and projections. <br /><br />Bob Dylan had it right: "The times they are a-changing..."Eric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21113266876873280092010-09-05T12:21:08.513-04:002010-09-05T12:21:08.513-04:00>>James
//If 2001 was anywhere near the lev...>>James<br /><br />//If 2001 was anywhere near the level of sales in 1982, that'd be an impressive feat! I don't know that it's not the case, but it seems unlikely to me. // <br /><br />I don't think it's terribly unlikely due to the immense popularity of the Lord of the Rings movies, whose releases were ongoing at that time. Nothing proselytizes for roleplaying games better than successful mainstream fantasy films, and LotR was the first of such since the 80's. It certainly is capable of explaining the spike of D&Ders at my LGS around then. <br /><br />//BnN, B.A.M., and other booksellers represent a huge piece of that market-share pie, too, but do they sell a lot of them or have dragon hordes of the things sitting in some warehouse?// <br /><br />I've never had any trouble finding players for 4th edition in my relatively small hometown store. I dunno what this says about their sales in the era of Amazon (and swiping free scans of materials from the Internet, for that matter), but I'm certain that WotC isn't putting out continuous new material for a system that isn't selling at all.Darrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296950331541804235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72878554820596924262010-09-05T10:42:38.540-04:002010-09-05T10:42:38.540-04:00Last year on the Acaeum, Calithena posted a quote ...Last year on the Acaeum, Calithena posted a quote from another summer of 1980 interview with Gygax:<br /><br />From "It's Only A Game...Or Is It?", Moira Johnston, New West, August 25, 1980:<br /><br />"Gygax, a former shoe-repairman, insurance underwriter, unpublished novelist and unemployed gaming enthusiast, describes the phenomenal growth of D&D. 'In 1979 we sold a quarter of a million copies of the basic D&D set, a little better than double over 1978. Our gross sales volume has gone from $150,000 in 1975 to $2.5 million in 1979. We expect to double or triple everything this year.' Although FRP games still rank behind electronic games in national popularity, 'D&D is now equal to any boardgame, including Monopoly', says Dana Lombardy, whose games column in Virginia-based Model Retailer magazine has closely monitored the rise of D&D and FRP. The most stunning measure of growth, Lombardy reports, is that 'of a total national FRP games market of $20 million in 1980, TSR will account for more than $5 million of that - at least 25 percent!' FRP wasn't even listed as a games category in 1974."<br /><br />http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8598<br /><br />The "quarter of a million" number for 1979 is in line with the ~12,000 month (240k/year).Zenopushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04423199583499955572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26678645602248039862010-09-04T23:44:01.807-04:002010-09-04T23:44:01.807-04:00Do these figures represent sales to end consumers,...Do these figures represent sales to end consumers, or just distributors/retailers?<br /> Just from what I've seen at my LGS, some copies of 4e product go to the shelf 'to die'. I think he even still has a couple copies of the PHB that were part of his original order. <br />BnN, B.A.M., and other booksellers represent a huge piece of that market-share pie, too, but do they sell a lot of them or have dragon hordes of the things sitting in some warehouse?Hawkmansdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04113828607067318291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89993517078468710672010-09-04T20:20:53.222-04:002010-09-04T20:20:53.222-04:00I do have to wonder how many copies of the 4E rule...<i>I do have to wonder how many copies of the 4E rulebooks WotC moves each month.</i><br /><br><b>A LOT</b>. Just ask them.<br /><br />More seriously, I don't think we'll ever know that. WotC is even more secretive about their sales figures than TSR ever was and TSR was plenty secretive most of the time. Plus, anything WotC does say is so cloaked in market-speak and dissimulation that it's hard to know what it really means.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82034751082155431182010-09-04T20:19:04.509-04:002010-09-04T20:19:04.509-04:00I wasn't talking about the Pokemon card game b...<i>I wasn't talking about the Pokemon card game but the Gameboy game itself.</i><br /><br>Aha, my mistake. Yes, I see what you're saying now and, as a father of two kids who've played and enjoyed various Pokémon video games, I think you may be on to something. They definitely include lots of aspects of the tabletop RPG experience in electronic form and could well serve as a useful introduction.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-494132008060636282010-09-04T18:28:40.257-04:002010-09-04T18:28:40.257-04:00I do have to wonder how many copies of the 4E rule...I do have to wonder how many copies of the 4E rulebooks WotC moves each month.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43253907309126448082010-09-04T18:09:20.032-04:002010-09-04T18:09:20.032-04:00I wasn't talking about the Pokemon card game b...I wasn't talking about the Pokemon card game but the Gameboy game itself. Kids have turned to videogame versions of RPGs because it is easier. All the mechanics are contained in the game itself so they don't have to do the math. RPGs in video game form are vastly more popular than any type of oldschool table top RPGs ever where, and for some reason that has made it less "nerdy". Having a Gameboy and playing Pokemon is pretty much considered a standard part of childhood at this point. Playing D&D back in the 80's when I was growing up made me a "geek". I don't know if the watering down of RPG concepts to make it more accepted and mainstream is a good thing or not.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07397554099246666778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44184946600870009642010-09-04T17:57:43.194-04:002010-09-04T17:57:43.194-04:00For better or worse, that itch for many that a RPG...<i>For better or worse, that itch for many that a RPG tabletop would hit is filled by the computer/console version.</i><br /><br>Absolutely. Many of the guys I started gaming with in 1979 would definitely have chosen video games over RPGs if video games of the sort that exist nowadays had been available back then.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7583736549355932022010-09-04T17:56:59.601-04:002010-09-04T17:56:59.601-04:00I remember reading something a few years back abou...<i>I remember reading something a few years back about sales of various D&D products, and I'm pretty sure the peak years were 1982 and 2001.</i><br /><br>If 2001 was anywhere near the level of sales in 1982, that'd be an impressive feat! I don't know that it's not the case, but it seems unlikely to me. But since WotC doesn't release their numbers and TSR's numbers are almost as unknown, it's hard to know the truth one way or the other.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50542095494016743602010-09-04T17:43:59.860-04:002010-09-04T17:43:59.860-04:00Ah, found it via Google. It was D20/4e versus D20/...Ah, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/229730-d-d-4th-edition-out-selling-any-previous-edition-good-bad-3.html" rel="nofollow">found it</a> via <i>Google</i>. It was D20/4e versus D20/3e; my memory playing tricks! :DAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84607049592546054292010-09-04T17:39:13.102-04:002010-09-04T17:39:13.102-04:00I believe that 3e sold better than late 2e was sel...<i>I believe that 3e sold better than late 2e was selling and I can certainly believe that. I don't believe it was ever claimed that 3e sold better than any previous edition of D&D</i>.<br /><br />I had an online exchange on ENWorld with somebody from WotC who confirmed something similar to this. If I were a paid up member I could search my 61 posts and find it...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69533313269117547732010-09-04T17:05:27.315-04:002010-09-04T17:05:27.315-04:00@Veil: "I remember reading that 3e sold bette...@Veil: "I remember reading that 3e sold better. If that is true, than it goes to show how badly they dropped the ball and lost their momentum to WOW."<br /><br />No, any time you try to track down that claim it's a widely-spread misunderstanding or obfuscation (depending on one's interpretation).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22653641445205647952010-09-04T15:12:13.041-04:002010-09-04T15:12:13.041-04:00For better or worse, that itch for many that a RPG...For better or worse, that itch for many that a RPG tabletop would hit is filled by the computer/console version.Joe G Kushnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02454826299896049587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32520384580790394042010-09-04T14:35:50.251-04:002010-09-04T14:35:50.251-04:00Yes, those numbers are pretty impressive. We proba...Yes, those numbers are pretty impressive. We probably won't see that ever again in tabletop rpgs. I can't say I wouldn't like them to become more popular than they are now, the retro-clones in particular. I think there is room for growth, though I certainly don't think it will be anywhere close to where it was in the early 1980s. That said, I think it can grow beyondthe level it now occupies, andIfor one wouldn't be against that. <br /><br />A friend of mine who is a teacher at a middle-school was able to interest some kids and get a TT game group started. The first few meetings involved several dozen students, though I'm not sure how it is doing now. But he reported many students having played WoW and finding it too limited. Now, that might not mean they would all be picking up Labyrinth Lord, but any movement from the computer to the tabletop in rpgs is good in my opinion.<br /><br />I remember reading something a few years back about sales of various D&D products, and I'm pretty sure the peak years were 1982 and 2001. IIRC, the article, or blog post, mentioned the Player's Handbook from 1st ed. AD&D and 3rd ed. D&D had comparable sales numbers, and those were the highest selling D&D products.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05465546887455130969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27846801481312767382010-09-04T12:48:12.089-04:002010-09-04T12:48:12.089-04:00Pokemon...there, I said it.
Sure, Pokémon sold ver...<i>Pokemon...there, I said it.</i><br /><br>Sure, Pokémon sold very well in its time, as did a lot of other CCGs, but they weren't RPGs. CCGs are a lot more "traditional" as games than are RPGs, so their success doesn't really surprise me. I can certainly imagine other similarly spectacular successes for traditional games, but tabletop RPGs? I just don't think the mass market will ever again go crazy for them as they did 30 years ago.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1982029274173724442010-09-04T12:45:58.926-04:002010-09-04T12:45:58.926-04:00If I'm not mistaken the 25th anniversary boxed...<i>If I'm not mistaken the 25th anniversary boxed set booklet discusses some print #s of the products it included (as re-prints).</i><br /><br>That would be useful information to see!James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33768546311760113012010-09-04T12:45:18.490-04:002010-09-04T12:45:18.490-04:00I remember reading that 3e sold better.
I believe ...<i>I remember reading that 3e sold better.</i><br /><br>I believe that 3e sold better than late 2e was selling and I can certainly believe that. I don't believe it was ever claimed that 3e sold better than any previous edition of <i>D&D</i>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73387387675084292542010-09-04T12:44:14.327-04:002010-09-04T12:44:14.327-04:00And according to Frank Mentzer, his Basic set outs...<i>And according to Frank Mentzer, his Basic set outsold Holmes and Moldvay in '84 or so. Wonder how many units of that they sold?</i><br /><br>I've heard that claim too and it may well be true, but I've never seen any hard numbers to back up the claim. But then, except for stuff like this Gygax interview, I never saw <i>any</i> numbers associated with <i>D&D</i>'s sales. TSR was always very tight lipped about its sales figures and print runs, which is a pity, because it'd be very interesting to learn which games/products sold best and which sold worst.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9798353665409854702010-09-04T11:03:17.281-04:002010-09-04T11:03:17.281-04:00If I'm not mistaken the 25th anniversary boxed...If I'm not mistaken the 25th anniversary boxed set booklet discusses some print #s of the products it included (as re-prints).<br /><br />I no longer have my 25th set exceopt for the holmes reprint, but IIRC I believe the estimated total run for the Holmes book was 200K plus copies?? Perhaps someone has it and can correct/clarify?<br /><br />at any rate- It was a great time, and fond memories of the sheer # of RPG products available, and my time as a kid. Moreso I think I miss the sheer amount of creativity that comes with something "new" or that is a "fad". The RPG market these days is completely tapped it seems for "flavor": nothing is all that different or exciting anymore-unless you count rule mechanics. Rarely does something REALLY intrigue me or capture my imagination. Maybe I'm just old, jaded and cynical, IDK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39504331914617119222010-09-04T09:40:46.482-04:002010-09-04T09:40:46.482-04:00Pokemon...there, I said it.Pokemon...there, I said it.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07397554099246666778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69080218481172859122010-09-04T08:14:24.520-04:002010-09-04T08:14:24.520-04:00the times dictated its success. its just like anyt...the times dictated its success. its just like anything that swept through for its phase of consumer dominance and faded. BMX bikes (joe kid on a stingray is a great documentary on this), Skateboarding, etc... both of those have a way of ebbing and flowing with pop culture though as its more marketable with celebrities and "sport"/trick development for new generations to bite into with dollars. these types of games, as we all know, reduced in popularity not only through computers but i would say the Card Game phase that later phased into heavily more pervasive computer gaming. when Magic hit (and all the other companies that had to make games to follow suit), GENCON in Milwaukee was virtually ALL card gamers sitting around the open halls (and even to this day, my local gaming store still holds more Magic nights/events than any other game). yes, there was still a ton of TTers but even as a early teen i could sense how hard the craft of roleplaying was disappearing at a rapid pace. ill never forget that scene.<br /><br />a lot of people find TT's too tedious and laborious. <br /><br />point being, yes, its nice to have the niche more closed off for the die hard players and thinkers/writers/artists... but at the same time, without that commercial success of D&D - its hard to imagine where any of this (and a lot of pop culture in general) would be. things are always changing, in flux and never static. even today its ridiculous to think of these games as "old school" or archaic. as long as there are people playing and things within them are changing, and people are forming new creations - theyre still as "alive" and new as ever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89877677873791295582010-09-04T06:49:00.741-04:002010-09-04T06:49:00.741-04:00In France, Mega, a sci-fi multidimmensionnal / tim...In France, Mega, a sci-fi multidimmensionnal / timetravel rpg, was released in magazine format at 100,000 copies. there was three successive editions and it attracted a wide range of people to rpg. <br /><br />Red Box was common enough, as France Loisirs, a very popular by-post bookseller, diffused it widely, as well as B3. That's were I got mine.Nicolas Dessauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010015806129652185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80769298414653282662010-09-04T06:48:54.429-04:002010-09-04T06:48:54.429-04:00I remember reading that 3e sold better. If that is...I remember reading that 3e sold better. If that is true, than it goes to show how badly they dropped the ball and lost their momentum to WOW.Veilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629417071588107833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78389302302376549162010-09-04T06:16:50.909-04:002010-09-04T06:16:50.909-04:00"The Modeller's Nook (never a big place) ..."The Modeller's Nook (never a big place) sold RPGs as a sideline to its military model kits. It also happened to be within spitting distance of the only comic shop in Belfast."<br /><br />Dark Horizons. Good old Fred and Spike. Where are they now, I wonder?<br /><br />"In my opinion, Games Workshop dealt it a serious blow by mving from being a games shop to being a Warhammer-only zone."<br /><br />If TSR had bought over GW, as Gary wanted, it's intriguing what things would be like today.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.com