tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1679148005826706292..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Two Common ComplaintsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18033839585798786652011-01-26T00:21:17.919-05:002011-01-26T00:21:17.919-05:00what about X plorers?what about X plorers?Clovis Cithoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208194219083373456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79223390584953501132011-01-21T18:21:44.280-05:002011-01-21T18:21:44.280-05:00@Joshua:
'It just isn't taking the market ...@Joshua:<br />'It just isn't taking the market by storm.':<br />Just as long as alternatives exist; the 'new stuff' is defined vs. mainstream. I don't think anyone was calling for say, Jorune, to be the new standard for D&D. Just for more Jorunes now and then.<br /><br />urban fantasy:<br />It took awhile, Charles Delint was doing this in the early 80's before Kim Harrison and those upstarts came along. :-)<br /><br />@Robert Fisher<br />@Joshua<br />'What customers say that they want and what they actually prove willing to buy are not necessarily strongly correllated.':(I love this old canard; my department used to toss this out in R&D all the time![And it worked, too!])<br />Varies due to many factors, but there's also the well-documented fact that many companies don't care about customer desires if it conflicts with their ideologies and/or would require(in their opinion) too much outlay of resources. There's wiggle room on occasion, though.velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81682027403029461882011-01-21T11:14:37.021-05:002011-01-21T11:14:37.021-05:00Or all they're offered! Plus, if there are peo...<i>Or all they're offered! Plus, if there are people asking for more than just 'vanilla'(which is delicious), they obviously want more, right?</i><br /><br />But that's not really true. There's a fair amount of deviation within fantasy from the "norms." But even the most popular among those "new" forms of fantasy end up being niche publications that aren't often imitated. I'm thinking of something like China Mieville here; he certainly does new things with fantasy, but how many people are following in his footsteps?<br /><br />Other guys are changing things up more subtley; Joe Abercrombie reverses some of the tropes to create an anti-fantasy, in many ways, but even that's not really doing something different, it's just a mirror image of much of what you'd expect to see. For example.<br /><br />But there's unusual stuff out there. It just isn't taking the market by storm. The only thing that <i>is</i> taking the market by storm that deviates from standard fantasy is the modern, urban fantasy form, with guys like Jim Butcher and others. And even then a lot of that is migrating into the romance genre territory (Twilight) or the soft porn genre territory (Anita Blake) and it's arguably as much horror as fantasy anyway in its roots.<br /><br /><i>It is amazing how often what customers ask for is not really what they want. (Which is not to say that you shouldn’t listen to customers. Merely that you have to go farther than simply asking them what they want.) </i><br /><br />Indeed. What customers say that they want and what they actually prove willing to buy are not necessarily strongly correllated.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34824017833612614562011-01-20T09:37:23.778-05:002011-01-20T09:37:23.778-05:00“Plus, if there are people asking for more than ju...“<i>Plus, if there are people asking for more than just 'vanilla'(which is delicious), they obviously want more, right?</i>”<br /><br />It is amazing how often what customers ask for is not really what they want. (Which is not to say that you shouldn’t listen to customers. Merely that you have to go farther than simply asking them what they want.)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55797205447773557252011-01-20T05:48:34.326-05:002011-01-20T05:48:34.326-05:00@richardthinks:
Oftentimes, at its best, it is... ...@richardthinks:<br />Oftentimes, at its best, it is... Robots chunking Bulettes out of a spaceship onto a wizard is the BIst thyng EVAR!<br /><br />@Jared:<br />Or all they're offered! Plus, if there are people asking for more than just 'vanilla'(which is delicious), they obviously want more, right?velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26249705603595202992011-01-20T05:40:39.411-05:002011-01-20T05:40:39.411-05:00Bizarrely having a parallel argument about vanilla...Bizarrely having a parallel argument about vanilla fantasy in books as well - why is it that all high fantasy books (even the new, highly-praised ones) use the same tropes over and over again?<br /><br />Well, because that's what readers want...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20306362331013553192011-01-20T04:45:34.372-05:002011-01-20T04:45:34.372-05:00...besides, D&D is really one of those crazy B......besides, D&D is really one of those crazy Ben n Jerry everything but the kitchen sink concoctions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37478324837188820202011-01-20T00:46:21.244-05:002011-01-20T00:46:21.244-05:00Are there bastions of Superhero 2044 fans hidden a...<i>Are there bastions of Superhero 2044 fans hidden away somewhere?</i><br /><br />Yes! Dr Ruby never died!<br /><br />On a more serious note, I think a big problem facing the OSR is that the the rules are much more established now than they were back in the day. By that I mean there wasn't much in the way of examples of how to create a campaign, so everybody went in different directions, stealing stuff they liked, and ignoring stuff they didn't. So you got a wide plethora of worlds, usually working on a hodge-podge of official and home-brewed rules. There was no real uniformity in anyone's campaigns back then.<br /><br />But now everybody knows what a D&D or Traveller game is <i>supposed</i> to look like. So they generally feel uncomfortable about taking the rule set and adapting it in new ways, to express new cultures and new campaign ideas. So its all a variation on a theme, rather than anything startling new. There is a reason that Tekumel and Glorantha drifted away to their own rule sets to better support their games. To produce something new and iconic you have to throw away the old palette and paint something new.<br /><br />And it was a lot easier back then for something new to be noticed than it is now. Even though it is easy to put something out there, it is generally harder for it to be noticed amongst all the other noise generated on the web.<br /><br />And even if you are noticed, it takes a large investment in time and effort to involve yourself with something new, especially a complicated world where you might have to learn all the specialised cultural rules to operate in successfully. People are lazy. So it's easier to just relax and continue in the same old plain* worlds that you gamed in before.<br /><br />[* I refuse to use vanilla as a substitute for plain. Proper vanilla is delicious.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66766561810738042272011-01-19T22:43:41.615-05:002011-01-19T22:43:41.615-05:00[i]I mean, is there an online community devoted to...[i]I mean, is there an online community devoted to, say, Universe that I've never heard about?[/i]<br /><br />Actually, you have - back when you wrote about [u]Universe[/u] I posted a response that (I think) included a link to a Yahoo group devoted to Universe. Hasn't seen any real activity in awhile, but it does exist.Angantyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07583089145943203408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31391322691289223702011-01-19T17:55:52.530-05:002011-01-19T17:55:52.530-05:00First off: Bog standard D&D is great. I've...First off: Bog standard D&D is great. I've played it. Love it.(With some mods, as I'm sure everyone would agree.[Houseruling=fun])<br /><br />Secondarily: No RPG has ever had D&D's distribution network and/or finanacial resources. No-one at this late date is likely to try, out of fiscal conservatism.<br /><br />Thirdly: Come up with the game you want to play, and show it off. Who knows what can happen. People at least might enjoy it. Maybe you're the next 'Blackmoor'.(Whitemarsh?)<br /><br />Fourthly: I'm a fan of the EPT/Carcosa/Jorune/Encounter Critical/Vikings And Valkyries, etc... stuff as well as Greyhawk, so....<br /><br />That said:<br /><br />@welleren:<br />'I am not sure they'd want to play Grondaks locked in battle with Fragwumps on the floating spheres of Zok'kr'nust'a.':<br />1)Are your players imaginative and adaptive?<br />2)Is this setting developed?<br />3)Have you asked them?<br /><br />@Pat:<br />'It's not a great place to be wholly original':<br />Have you tried? You never know...<br /><br />@Zak S:<br />'RPGs will always be more about established genres than new paragenres simply because people read books and comics and play video games and see movies and -then- want to go play games about them way more than they read a game as if it were a form of fiction and suddenly discover a world.'-The substandard imagination of the creators(and more importantly that plus creative inertia will come from bankrollers) of most media will influence this greatly. I. e. everything has to look similar to the stuff that made money before.(And hopefully spawn a franchise.)<br /><br />@ChicagoWiz:<br />Thanx for providing a starting point for this discussion. You've hit OSR Big Time now, right?<br />Grognardia! Thanx for the link!<br /><br />I was wondering when you would blog on this, James. Thanx for the forum!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39687869650124269012011-01-19T16:34:05.242-05:002011-01-19T16:34:05.242-05:00“It’s trivial to be able to put one’s own stuff ou...“<i>It’s trivial to be able to put one’s own stuff out there...</i>”<br /><br />Trivial? In making this point, let’s be sure to still recognize the—not insignificant—time and effort you and others are putting in to turn ideas into works. (Even blog posts.)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27884462548190312082011-01-19T16:29:14.978-05:002011-01-19T16:29:14.978-05:00@Pat:
"Where D&D shines is when you rec...@Pat: <br />"Where D&D shines is when you recycle elements from the common culture you share with your players. It's not a great place to be wholly original - but it is a wonderful place to regurgitate fantastic elements (from any number of sources) that your players are already familiar with."<br /><br />I agree! The fun is to use the basic building blocks in new and interesting ways - not necessarily alien, but entertaining for the DM and players. I have no problem with the strange or the intricate - in fact, I strive for both at times in my own gaming. But I would rather create something truly unique to its core, rather than just dress up the ho-hum with superficial/fancy names and weird appearances.<br /><br />@Matt: I guesss I can put you down for a copy of Zok'kr'nust'a White Box Edition.Keith Sloanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319879076978887933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46086792907152781722011-01-19T15:31:33.424-05:002011-01-19T15:31:33.424-05:00@matt:
Don't give up! It just adds an extra ...@matt:<br /><br />Don't give up! It just adds an extra step to your process.<br /><br />1. Publish a gonzo boundary-shattering setting and system into which the Floating Spheres can be incorporated. (unprofitable)<br /><br />2. Publish a resource (module, sourcebook, etc.) for your gonzo setting/system that features the Floating Spheres. (also unprofitable)<br /><br />3. Translate your Floating Spheres product into WB. (hugely popular!)<br /><br />4. Profit!!!Taketoshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876641059472816784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46076951642005664502011-01-19T15:19:21.110-05:002011-01-19T15:19:21.110-05:00There goes my idea for a Floating Spheres of Zok&#...There goes my idea for a Floating Spheres of Zok'kr'nust'a mega-module.John Matthew Staterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02310914386482078369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49484291852339961872011-01-19T15:14:23.821-05:002011-01-19T15:14:23.821-05:00PS, the link to vermin20 above seems to be broken,...PS, the link to vermin20 above seems to be broken, but I have downloaded it from here: http://sites.google.com/site/copycat042/verminM20.pdfMichael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43746641513377092842011-01-19T15:13:02.717-05:002011-01-19T15:13:02.717-05:00@James, thank you for the link to my post and the ...@James, thank you for the link to my post and the great comments. It's been fun to read the "yeas" and "nays" and learn something from them.<br /><br />That being said, there was a sort of clone done for Bunnies and Burrows back when microlite20 was all the rage. I present vermin20: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18915891/verminM20<br /><br />@Coldstream - what am I looking for? More of the sparks that I find from Jeff Rients taking EPT and making it "big and dumb" (his words), from Carcosa, from Urutsk, from the places that people have gone that have gone beyond just taking the same orc and restating it over and over.<br /><br />Some of the context of my original thought was lost because I linked to a forum post. This all started because someone suggested that we take the Core S&W Monster Book and restat it for WhiteBox and publish it. My first thought was "What a waste of time and publisher's resources when he could be working on the next crazy thing..." and it went from there. EPT and Blackmoor were the earliest examples of where there was variation from the straight OD&D/Greyhawk thread, so I went with that. Ultimately, what I hope for is that this OSR doesn't do what TSR/WotC did and just create a glut of the same-old, same-old, restatted stuff. <br /><br />And in the interest of full disclosure, yes, I did restat Core crap into WB crap for my ref sheets. I made beer money. You're free to come visit, play D&D/warmgames with me and I'll buy one of those beers for ya. <br /><br />I'm really glad to have seen a lot of unique, personal stuff be spoken about since this discussion. If we're playing up the groundbreaking stuff, the stuff that pushes the edges and shows the creativity, whether it's an orc with pie, lasers, concrete shoes or ballerina slippers, then I think it's awesome.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27448944890893499362011-01-19T14:58:36.676-05:002011-01-19T14:58:36.676-05:00I think cyclopeatron definitely made a good second...I think cyclopeatron definitely made a good second point above. I know if I really want to be excited by what's in my game, I make it happen--and I think any good GM works more or less that way.<br /><br />That being said, there is a lot of room in my mind for modules and small-scale supplements and materials that are inspiration fodder more than sourcebooks. <br /><br />The upcoming Petty Gods book that someone (I forget who) is working on currently is one good example of an item that will do a lot to share people's creative directions without imposing a setting on anyone at the same time.<br /><br />My thought: big creative setting and rulebooks = too niche and largely unmarketable, while small-scale and specifically inspirational rather than authoritative = highly marketable and well worth the effort.<br /><br />Heck, I saw the Dungeon Alphabet in Borders the other day.Taketoshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876641059472816784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62927778797453162322011-01-19T14:54:01.839-05:002011-01-19T14:54:01.839-05:00@Coldstream
"As an aside I like the idea of...@Coldstream<br /> "As an aside I like the idea of there being hidden cults of Superhero 2044 players somewhere in the world, attempting to secretly dominate the world of OSR from behind the scenes as a first step to taking over the world..."<br /><br />I finally have a group to put on my blank Illuminati! cards. Superhero 2044 Players Association. Awesome.Rob of the Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08970111441532206496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40917090662769125592011-01-19T14:39:35.321-05:002011-01-19T14:39:35.321-05:00It's interesting seeing "innovation"...It's interesting seeing "innovation" being essentially reduced to "creating unusual games that no one really ever plays" (ie EPT). I don't really see the point. Seems almost like wanting change for the sake of change, not necessarily to make anything better.<br /><br />And, I'm not really sure what ChicagoWiz is looking for. He wants "originality" like EPT and Blackmoor. Is that original? <br /><br />He asks for something different with Orcs as an example, like crossing them with Mr T and putting a laser in his hand...like they have done with Warhammer 40k. <br /><br />Anyway, I don't see value in doing something "innovative" simply for the sake of it, especially if the end result isn't actually used. <br /><br />As an aside I like the idea of there being hidden cults of Superhero 2044 players somewhere in the world, attempting to secretly dominate the world of OSR from behind the scenes as a first step to taking over the world...Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50556843551019233752011-01-19T14:36:35.161-05:002011-01-19T14:36:35.161-05:00Zak pretty much hit it. Speaking for myself, I lik...Zak pretty much hit it. Speaking for myself, I like my game settings the way I like my rules: generic, and easily tinkered with. I just don't like having a straitjacket applied to my imagination. <br /><br />EPT, for it to remain EPT, is the kind of thing that can't be tinkered with without having it lose what makes it distinctive. It's an OK place to visit, I suppose, but I wouldn't want my gaming-imagination to go there and set up a permanent shop.Cameron Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659549078009511670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42746458485574574552011-01-19T14:35:16.492-05:002011-01-19T14:35:16.492-05:00@cyclopeatron
"furthermore...."
Gooooo...@cyclopeatron<br /><br />"furthermore...."<br /><br />Goooooooood point.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43799913455163289262011-01-19T14:28:25.496-05:002011-01-19T14:28:25.496-05:00Glorantha has been doing pretty well and it's ...Glorantha has been doing pretty well and it's pretty gonzo. It is in a somewhat different situation as it's still a published setting (noth RQ and HeroQuest) and BRP/RuneQuest has changed so little over the years there is little need for an OSR.Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12174843939252395797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15461134467000210352011-01-19T14:23:57.944-05:002011-01-19T14:23:57.944-05:00One way to rephrase your first point is "Who ...One way to rephrase your first point is <i>"Who actually plays EPT and Blackmoor?"</i> These are brilliant settings, but as you said most D&D players like the flavor of vanilla. Both EPT and Blackmoor have very weird things in them - the type of material I only see discussed on a very small number of blogs. Again, as you said, I think there's a very limited audience for this kind of stuff.<br /><br />Furthermore, I think the kind of gamers that appreciate hyper-creative settings like EPT and Jorune (i.e. myself) also tend to be the gamers who favor homebrewing their own worlds over using prepackaged settings.Bob Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073807225519106277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11905002779428645472011-01-19T14:10:27.520-05:002011-01-19T14:10:27.520-05:00To tell you the truth, I hadn't heard of EPT u...To tell you the truth, I hadn't heard of EPT until 3 or 4 years ago. I've played it and liked it, but I see why it hasn't really caught on outside of a small niche.<br /><br />I agree that product wise, it's great to see innovative stuff. But when it comes down to it, people really want a basic fantasy setting. It's like a second home and people want to be reminded of home.<br /><br />Besides, i<br /><br />It's a great idea to have really weird things that clash together like robots and fantasy, or urban fantasy. They're great ideas, but they're also not new ideas. They've been done by many people over the years.<br /><br />I think true originality comes out in game play, there's no other substitute for the randomness that players and GMs can bring forth in play.Chad Thorsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084711824869449643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38647228905258205412011-01-19T14:04:34.277-05:002011-01-19T14:04:34.277-05:00@Pat
I'd put it this way:
The -product- is t...@Pat<br /><br />I'd put it this way:<br /><br />The -product- is the starting point of a setting. It helps if the starting point is familiar--or it helps get a game started if it is: people have "seen the trailer and know who's in it".<br /><br />The -game itself- that grows from there due to the players and GM, can be extremely original and new. There's a difference between what we want from a published product and what we want from ourselves.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com