tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1764858629439012032..comments2024-03-28T06:20:47.668-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Pulp Fantasy Library: The Desert of SoulsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22961851723569092972011-04-21T23:47:04.633-04:002011-04-21T23:47:04.633-04:00I have that Pathfinder Tales book on my shelf in m...I have that Pathfinder Tales book on my shelf in my queue. If it turns out well, I'll look into this other one as well.Jeremy Deramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166744272459044563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59426438137864217832011-04-07T21:33:11.604-04:002011-04-07T21:33:11.604-04:00You must know Tim Powers? No, he's not swords ...<i>You must know Tim Powers? No, he's not swords and sorcery, but he's concise and inventive and literate and fun.</i><br /><br>I do and I like him very much. There are definitely some Powers-eseque turns in my current <i>D&D</i> campaign setting, but, for whatever reason, I tend not to think of him as a fantasy writer and so often forget to mention him.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4093286878228852452011-04-06T14:26:48.269-04:002011-04-06T14:26:48.269-04:00Thank you for all the info.Thank you for all the info.The Angry Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17075199616086876028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59487967835645346042011-04-06T10:01:52.584-04:002011-04-06T10:01:52.584-04:00I had the opportunity to read HAJ's story in d...I had the opportunity to read HAJ's story in draft, and it is indeed amazing! His prose is lean without being sparse, and in that he very much reminds me of REH at his best. Go, buy a copy! :)Scott Odenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17917296669418463518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20852096520645861712011-04-06T08:30:05.896-04:002011-04-06T08:30:05.896-04:00I have to check this book out. Sounds all kinds o...I have to check this book out. Sounds all kinds of interesting. Thanks for the heads up sir!HitAdjacentAllyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632582325567098655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15416002424102328772011-04-04T16:48:31.203-04:002011-04-04T16:48:31.203-04:00@Saladin: I will of course bow to your greater exp...@Saladin: I will of course bow to your greater experience in the area of the short fiction market these days. The Swords & Dark Magic anthology is indeed a nice piece of work (with Erikson's story being one of my favorites in the collection--along with Abercrombie's).Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75712774275971635082011-04-04T16:37:35.146-04:002011-04-04T16:37:35.146-04:00"And "digressions" are the poetry o..."And "digressions" are the poetry of Moby Dick."<br /><br />Couldn't agree more - I wish to God we lived in a world where one could write a beautifully, intentionally digressional (rather than padded) fat fantasy novel and have it sell.<br /><br />FWIW, to bring this thread full-circle to the questions of gaming and neo-S&S, Howard Andrew Jones has also just written a well-received Pathfinder tie-in novel. Haven't read it myself, but it looks like it could be a fun beach read:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Tales-Howard-Andrew-Jones/dp/1601252919<br /><br />Ok, now I shall refrain from further linkspam <br /><br />::slaps own wrist::Saladin Ahmedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17052841870041946321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27884203992176670192011-04-04T15:45:00.623-04:002011-04-04T15:45:00.623-04:00When I'm not writing Flash Gordon I'm writ...When I'm not writing Flash Gordon I'm writing Arabian Nights. Will check this out.<br /><br />You must know Tim Powers? No, he's not swords and sorcery, but he's concise and inventive and literate and fun.<br /><br />The Lost Books of the Odyssey. Not up there <br />with Borges or Calvino's Invisible Cities but brilliant shorts verging on microfiction.<br /><br />And "digressions" are the poetry of Moby Dick. The monomaniacal revenge bit I consider pretty much a frame story.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81234118931287162882011-04-04T15:03:59.254-04:002011-04-04T15:03:59.254-04:00@ Rob: I agree with your first point - I tend to w...@ Rob: I agree with your first point - I tend to write shorter myself, but I love a good doorstopper when it's done right. If the form enables some horrid excesses, it also absolutely provides a reader access to a panoply of perspectives that shorter/1st person novels just can't replicate. <br /><br />I'm not so sure about your second point, though. From a writer's perspective, at least, there are probably more thriving pro-rate fantasy markets than SF ones. And short fantasy fiction is doing better now readership-wise than it was ten years ago, largely because of the internet. But who knows how these things are going to shake out a bit down the line... There's a *lot* of uncertainty in all corners of the biz right now, and even more piss-poor prophesying.<br /><br />With apologies for hijacking the thread here, I'd also point folks interested in newer short S&S to the anthology Swords & Dark Magic:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Swords-Dark-Magic-Sword-Sorcery/dp/0061723819<br /><br />Some great stories in there, some just plain fun ones, only a couple of duds. It's an interesting antho because even 'fatter' writers like Erickson are working in a more muscular form here.Saladin Ahmedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17052841870041946321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39257477795927007752011-04-04T15:01:06.702-04:002011-04-04T15:01:06.702-04:00"And even The Lord of the Rings, which inspir..."And even The Lord of the Rings, which inspired so much of this nonsense, is only about 1200 pages long in total..."<br /><br />And, I believe, actually FIVE books.Rob Crawfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010767328260010949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83786895330506736862011-04-04T15:00:34.066-04:002011-04-04T15:00:34.066-04:00I gave up on Jordan when I realized an entire (thi...I gave up on Jordan when I realized an entire (thick!) book had contained a single plot point.Rob Crawfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010767328260010949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26771979639558076442011-04-04T14:52:40.242-04:002011-04-04T14:52:40.242-04:00If you want to read reasonably-sized, self-contain...If you want to read reasonably-sized, self-contained fantasy novels, I'd recommend anything by Patricia McKillip. She wrote a trilogy early in her career, but she got better :-)Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01272921931873031194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45420978851830264182011-04-04T14:30:24.893-04:002011-04-04T14:30:24.893-04:00One advantage (for me) of the longer fantasy doors...One advantage (for me) of the longer fantasy doorstop is that it lets you give a fantastic world the multiple viewpoints of the classic 19C European novel and/or the Dos Passos inspired 20C American novel. Shorter fantasy tends to focus on a much smaller number of protagonists, providing concentration and speed at the expense of breadth and panorama. So I'm personally happiest when we have a full spectrum of narrative lengths available.<br /><br />I suspect the ship has sailed on the short story, though. Online publication certainly gets around a number of the publishing issues that have been killing off the magazine--but online publication also makes it economically viable to publish doorstop novels oneself. SF is pretty much the last bastion of the short story in genre fiction these days (not that fantasy ever really had a comparable environment for short stories at any point in its history; even the fantastic pulps were outnumbered by the SF ones).Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8857782696703642592011-04-04T14:27:34.805-04:002011-04-04T14:27:34.805-04:00@ James and Aos:
*Books* of fantasy short stories...@ James and Aos:<br /><br />*Books* of fantasy short stories are pretty much impossible to sell via traditional publishers. (I *do* think the emergence of the ereader may change this, but we're not there yet.) But there are some great ezines out there that pay pro rate (a whopping 5-7 cents a word!) or close to it for short adventure fantasy fiction. Most offer their fiction to readers for free. A few favorites, starting with the neo-pulpiest and moving toward the quasi-'literary':<br /><br />http://www.heroicfantasyquarterly.com/<br /><br />http://www.blackgate.com/black-gate-subscriptions/<br /><br />http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/<br /><br />http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/<br /><br />Beneath Ceaseless Skies is a particular favorite of mine, though I'm no doubt biased since they've bought a couple of my stories. BCS and Black Gate are also notable for having serial stories featuring recurring characters, ala Conan or Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser.Saladin Ahmedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17052841870041946321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51899295312967782182011-04-04T14:07:53.077-04:002011-04-04T14:07:53.077-04:00Wow, that is so disheartening. I guess my dream of...<i>Wow, that is so disheartening. I guess my dream of one day being able to write -- gasp! -- fantasy short stories is probably for naught.</i><br /><br />I have a similar fantasy, and i have actually come close to publishing on two occasions, but grad school made it impossible for me to go any further at the time. <br />I like to think that the rise of the ereader will somehow usher in a new era of short form S&S. I'm probably wrong, though.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83856763987602161802011-04-04T14:01:18.675-04:002011-04-04T14:01:18.675-04:00I should probably move on before the lynch mob for...<i>I should probably move on before the lynch mob forms.</i><br /><br>Nah, a lot of people have issues with the LotR, especially in comparison to <i>The Hobbit</i> and I think there are definitely some fair criticisms to be had of the former. I sometimes say that I think the LotR succeeds <i>in spite of</i> Tolkien's writing rather than because of it and I say this as someone who dearly loves the book.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81600548027413764412011-04-04T13:59:20.865-04:002011-04-04T13:59:20.865-04:00@ James, You are correct, I think. I was thinking ...@ James, You are correct, I think. I was thinking of books that were long in comparison to the one under discussion in your initial post. <br />Personally, I think LoTR would be better if it were about 2/3 as long as it is. <br />I should probably move on before the lynch mob forms.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27224595334286820482011-04-04T13:59:16.643-04:002011-04-04T13:59:16.643-04:00Unless we're talking about 100's of repeti...<i>Unless we're talking about 100's of repetitive "campfire scenes" that's just padding.</i><br /><br>I remember talking with the wife of someone involved in a <i>Wheel of Time</i>-related project, who recalled when he husband was re-reading all the books then available in the series and taking notes for this project. One day, he was sitting down and, instead of simply closing the book as he concluded it, he threw it across the room. His wife asked him, "What's wrong?" and he replied, "Nothing happened." <br /><br />That's how I feel about far too much modern fantasy.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6276889726353421612011-04-04T13:56:11.973-04:002011-04-04T13:56:11.973-04:00One editor suggested I pad it out with 'lots m...<i>One editor suggested I pad it out with 'lots more description.'</i><br /><br>Wow, that is so disheartening. I guess my dream of one day being able to write -- gasp! -- fantasy <i>short stories</i> is probably for naught.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81440371967909305422011-04-04T13:55:09.554-04:002011-04-04T13:55:09.554-04:00Again, the problem isn't length; it is padding...<i>Again, the problem isn't length; it is padding for the sake of length.</i><br /><br>You may well be correct. I guess it's just that it's been so long since I've encountered a long fantasy novel where the length didn't seem gratuitous that I have a hard time remembering their existence. Wolfe's <i>Book of the New Sun</i> series consisted of only four books and they were all about 300 pages long. And even <i>The Lord of the Rings</i>, which inspired so much of this nonsense, is only about 1200 pages long in total, which is less than guys like George R. R. Martin manage in a couple of volumes in series running many, many books.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77844148514211863212011-04-04T13:55:09.256-04:002011-04-04T13:55:09.256-04:00@ Saladan Ahmed
Are you a fast fish or a loose fis...@ Saladan Ahmed<br />Are you a fast fish or a loose fish? :)<br />I love Moby dick as well, especially the cetecean chapters. I don't equate all digression with padding. If it's good, like the cetacean chapters in Moby Dick, it's digression; if it sucks, like the Tar Valon chapter in Jordon, it's padding. I'd go sdo far as to say that the historical stuff in LoTR isn't padding; it's just tedious. However, some folks love that stuff, so I guess it's all subjective. Unless we're talking about 100's of repetitive "campfire scenes" that's just padding.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14107024427954380382011-04-04T13:51:43.795-04:002011-04-04T13:51:43.795-04:00"My forthcoming novel found a very happy home..."My forthcoming novel found a very happy home with DAW Books, but as my agent and I were shopping it, more than one editor thought it 'too short' (@95K words) for epic fantasy. One editor suggested I pad it out with 'lots more description.'"<br /><br />Ha! I got into an argument with an epic fantasy fan in which I said I felt editors and publishers were helping to drive page counts upward and they told me I was full of crap. Now I feel vindicated :)Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14624614486574035692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4560802973507831412011-04-04T13:47:00.428-04:002011-04-04T13:47:00.428-04:00I can't help being extremely skeptical when I ...I can't help being extremely skeptical when I see someone arguing that the fantasy sagas of today have to be that long because "the story just got too big...the author could ONLY write it that way." I believe it's market-driven and FAT books are in and the fatter the better. I just don't care to go along with it.<br /><br />I just received my copy of Desert of Souls and I'm looking forward to checking it out!Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14624614486574035692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31892122478515085322011-04-04T13:33:00.648-04:002011-04-04T13:33:00.648-04:00@ Aos:
Moby Dick is a contender for my favorite n...@ Aos:<br /><br />Moby Dick is a contender for my favorite novel of all time, but kind of an odd choice for 'books free of "unneeded" digressional padding,' ne? I mean, I personally *love* the whale anatomy chapters, etc., but they aren't exactly there to advance the plot...<br /><br />"Furthermore, I think the audience and publishers are every bit as much to blame as the authors- if not more so."<br /><br />I can vouch for this. My forthcoming novel found a very happy home with DAW Books, but as my agent and I were shopping it, more than one editor thought it 'too short' (@95K words) for epic fantasy. One editor suggested I pad it out with 'lots more description.'Saladin Ahmedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17052841870041946321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87861603151953868662011-04-04T12:58:31.442-04:002011-04-04T12:58:31.442-04:00Blogger ate my post, so I'll try again.
The pr...Blogger ate my post, so I'll try again.<br />The problem isn't length, really, but that stories that could be told in a couple of hundred pages are pushed out to many times that by pointless padding. Jordon used petty character drama; repetitive, non-revelatory dialogue; plot free intrigue and literally hundreds of campfire scenes (Erikson is big on these last two as well). Tolkien used long digressions on the history of the Middle Earth (sorry I'm a huge fan of the Hobbit; I wish I'd never read LoTR. In my opinion, it stole away the delightful wide eyed innocence of its predecessor). <br />Anyway, I could go on, but i wont.<br />Instead, I'd like to mention some long adventure stories, that get it right- <i>The Three Musketeers; Moby Dick</i>; Vance's Lyonesse trilogy (the first two, anyway) Wolfe's <i>Book of the New Sun</i>. <br />Again, the problem isn't length; it is padding for the sake of length. <br />Furthermore, I think the audience and publishers are every bit as much to blame as the authors- if not more so.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.com