tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1765563301537900125..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Some Words about Pulp FantasyJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61280177855974415862008-10-21T14:16:00.000-04:002008-10-21T14:16:00.000-04:00Please let us know when you write it, as I'd love ...<I>Please let us know when you write it, as I'd love to be proven wrong :)</I><BR/><BR/>Will do.<BR/><BR/><I>As I recall, the story owes its origin one or more stories of actual events REH heard or read about as a young man. He was very interested in the settling of Texas and other regions of the western US and that interest sparked the creation of the story. So, while it is often said to be influenced by Westerns, I think it's truer to say that it was influenced by the same history that inspired Westerns as well. <BR/><BR/>Unless I am completely misremembering the details of its origins, in which case ignore me :)</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, getting ahead of myself there. What I meant to say was though that tale reads like it was informed by the "western", it actually more likely draws on the same (varied) source material.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89591677194132542322008-10-21T13:27:00.000-04:002008-10-21T13:27:00.000-04:00Not as unusual as you might think! This will make ...<I>Not as unusual as you might think! This will make for an interesting essay, but I think it will have to wait for another time and forum; another thing to add to my "to do" list.</I><BR/><BR/>Please let us know when you write it, as I'd love to be proven wrong :)<BR/><BR/><I>Indeed, Beyond the Black River is perhaps the most obviously "western" influenced REH Conan tale, but it I think it could have been told much as it is without the advent of the western.</I><BR/><BR/>As I recall, the story owes its origin one or more stories of actual events REH heard or read about as a young man. He was very interested in the settling of Texas and other regions of the western US and that interest sparked the creation of the story. So, while it is often said to be influenced by Westerns, I think it's truer to say that it was influenced by the same history that inspired Westerns as well. <BR/><BR/>Unless I am completely misremembering the details of its origins, in which case ignore me :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63600854915743780142008-10-21T13:21:00.000-04:002008-10-21T13:21:00.000-04:00I'd agree that there are medieval tales where "Wes...<I>I'd agree that there are medieval tales where "Western" elements can be found, but I still would argue that such tales are unusual.</I><BR/><BR/>Not as unusual as you might think! This will make for an interesting essay, but I think it will have to wait for another time and forum; another thing to add to my "to do" list.<BR/><BR/><I>That aside, I think it highly unlikely that Gygax and Arneson were picking up these themes from medieval French chansons or Spanish epopeyas. They grew up watching and reading Westerns and it's through that medium that it entered D&D.</I><BR/><BR/>It certainly must have been a contributing factor, but I would argue it is just one thread amongst many. Indeed, <I>Beyond the Black River</I> is perhaps the most obviously "western" influenced REH Conan tale, but it I think it could have been told much as it is without the advent of the western.<BR/><BR/>Pure speculation, of course.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82020165890910420882008-10-21T12:23:00.000-04:002008-10-21T12:23:00.000-04:00To me, the western looks suspiciously like medieva...<I>To me, the western looks suspiciously like medieval feudal society with guns. The reverse is obviously also true, but the items you are particularly highlighting (distant or uncaring government, outsider relationship of protagonist to society on account of violence, apparent amorality and otherwise flawed heroes) are all important themes in medieval stories (not all of them, obviously).</I><BR/><BR/>I'd agree that there are medieval tales where "Western" elements can be found, but I still would argue that such tales are unusual. <BR/><BR/>That aside, I think it highly unlikely that Gygax and Arneson were picking up these themes from medieval French <I>chansons</I> or Spanish <I>epopeyas</I>. They grew up watching and reading Westerns and it's through that medium that it entered <I>D&D</I>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70852678189782529902008-10-21T12:12:00.000-04:002008-10-21T12:12:00.000-04:00That said, I think the Western provides some disti...<I>That said, I think the Western provides some distinctive elements, both dramatically and morally, that you don't find much in properly medieval tales of this general ilk. In particular, Westerns typically portray legitimate governmental authority as, at best, ineffectual and, at worst, uncaring about the trials and tribulations of those who live on the frontier. I see your typical D&D adventurer as far more like a gunslinger than a knight errant, both in his behavior and (more importantly) his relationship to the society he defends.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you may need to get more familiar with medieval storytelling and history. ;)<BR/><BR/>Indeed the various French chansons have often been described as "westerns" or "cowboys and indians". To me, the western looks suspiciously like medieval feudal society with guns. The reverse is obviously also true, but the items you are particularly highlighting (distant or uncaring government, outsider relationship of protagonist to society on account of violence, apparent amorality and otherwise flawed heroes) are all important themes in medieval stories (not all of them, obviously).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55223695501510475512008-10-21T08:30:00.000-04:002008-10-21T08:30:00.000-04:00As for the originals that inspired Leone, I tend t...<I>As for the originals that inspired Leone, I tend to find them boring and simplistic.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm curious to hear what films you saw, because, whenever someone claims that American Westerns are "boring and simplistic" compared to Leone, I wonder whether they've ever watched <I>The Searchers</I>, for example.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80972616783168491632008-10-21T08:26:00.000-04:002008-10-21T08:26:00.000-04:00what is High Fantasy?It's a very nebulous term, bu...<I>what is High Fantasy?</I><BR/><BR/>It's a very nebulous term, but, in my opinion, "high fantasy" refers primarily to fantasy <I>series</I> (they're rarely single books) that take place in settings where the clash between "cosmic" forces forms the main thrust of the plot. Most often, high fantasy stories ape Tolkien/RPG conventions and have lots of sentient races.<BR/><BR/>I agree, though, that <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> can't really be called "high fantasy" except in an analogical sense. It's not even really "fantasy" except by similar analogy. However, the popularity of the LotR books is what birthed high fantasy as a sub-genre, so it tends to get lumped in with its imitators, even though I think that's very unfair.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82486883720843377042008-10-21T01:40:00.000-04:002008-10-21T01:40:00.000-04:00Perhaps very significantly, to me a western means ...Perhaps very significantly, to me a western means "For a Fistful of Dollars" or "Once Upon a Time in the West", "western music" is the electric guitar tunes or modulated coyote howls of Ennio Morricone, and the "western landscape" is the wasteland areas of Spain. And of the protagonists -- Tuco, That Guy Played by Squinty Clint and of course Angel Eyes would feel right at home in my games, while a cowboy from America's more black-and-white morality play westerns would be out of place.<BR/><BR/>As for the originals that inspired Leone, I tend to find them boring and simplistic.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14405965469683350452008-10-20T23:51:00.000-04:002008-10-20T23:51:00.000-04:00what is High Fantasy? I've always thought it was a...what <I>is</I> High Fantasy? I've always thought it was any world very clearly and importantly different from our own, typically a place with cheap/common magic and lots of supernatural monsters - that is, an environment with weak ecological rules suited to telling tall and simple tales. But then I see all kinds of stuff, like Middle Earth, being called High Fantasy and I get all confused. <BR/>Perhaps my question should be: what <I>isn't</I> High Fantasy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58770282475533847312008-10-20T22:16:00.000-04:002008-10-20T22:16:00.000-04:00I really do appreciate the pulp-driven swords &...<I>I really do appreciate the pulp-driven swords & sorcery emphasis that has permeated the old school movement of late, but I don't think we'd want to ignore what Tolkien and others brought to the table, either. If OD&D's openness to individual interpretation was grounded in anything, it seems to me that it is the ability to play different, equally enjoyable, and equally worthwhile styles of fantasy games.</I><BR/><BR/>Though an unwavering fan of Howard, Leiber and Vance; an avid reader of this blog; and a firm believer that <I>D&D</I>'s roots lie solidly in pulp fantasy, I heartily agree with masenstodt's view.<BR/><BR/>I, too, abhor the Dragonlance generation of "high fantasy" literature - in fact, I'm extremely wary of anything billing itself as such - and the railroady style of gameplay they are associated with. As someone who was introduced to gaming in the age of AD&D2e, I never quite understood the <I>Dragonlance</I> and <I>Forgotten Realms</I> NPC-worship to which some of my fellow players seemed to adhere.<BR/><BR/>And quite frankly, I think Middle-Earth makes a crappy setting for a game, as any PC is doomed to be overshadowed by the long lineages of epic characters, from Fëanor to Aragorn to everyone in between. But Tolkien's powerful imagery - rangers, elves, dwarves, orcs, balrogs and so forth - lends <I>D&D</I> so much of its identity. <BR/><BR/>Besides, Tolkien's heroes have flaws of their own. Aragorn's reluctance and denial, Boromir's short-sightedness and propensity to wrath, and even Gandalf, angel or not, is a manipulative curmudgeon.<BR/><BR/>And the underlying theme of Cosmic Good versus Cosmic Evil - perhaps the most distinctive hallmark of the sub-genre - despite Tolkien's ham-handed Manicheanism, remains perfectly compatible with a basis in pulp fantasy. Look no further than Howard's Solomon Kane for a fine example of "Good vs. Evil" in a pulp fantasy milieu.Iglesiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08416128782481346800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55939859398084081142008-10-20T18:44:00.000-04:002008-10-20T18:44:00.000-04:00Indeed, the western could be described as medieval...<I>Indeed, the western could be described as medieval feudal frontier life in post colonial early modern drag.</I><BR/><BR/>There's obviously a shared heritage there and it'd be foolish to avoid taking advantage of it when possible. That said, I think the Western provides some distinctive elements, both dramatically and morally, that you don't find much in properly medieval tales of this general ilk. In particular, Westerns typically portray legitimate governmental authority as, at best, ineffectual and, at worst, uncaring about the trials and tribulations of those who live on the frontier. I see your typical <I>D&D</I> adventurer as far more like a gunslinger than a knight errant, both in his behavior and (more importantly) his relationship to the society he defends.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81641709915076958042008-10-20T18:17:00.000-04:002008-10-20T18:17:00.000-04:00Whilst I think there is some merit in presenting t...Whilst I think there is some merit in presenting the western as an <I>exemplum</I> of this sort of storytelling, I think we should be wary of boxing ourselves in. The idea of "fighting men" being outside of and feared by the society that they often protect or which necessitates their existence is far, far, older than the western.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, the western could be described as medieval feudal frontier life in post colonial early modern drag.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20643451211063082732008-10-20T14:19:00.000-04:002008-10-20T14:19:00.000-04:00I'm convinced that the Western is the primary ...<I>I'm convinced that the Western is the primary mode of American storytelling and, as such, one of the primary creative influences on D&D, though it's rarely outright acknowledged. A clear theme of the Western is the notion that, to defend civilization against "barbarians," one must pick up a gun and kill, but to do so is make oneself a barbarian and thus exclude oneself from the very thing you seek to defend. Once picking up a gun and killing is no longer seen as essentially barbaric, there is no longer any moral -- or dramatic -- conflict and you're left with the glorification of violence. In my opinion, D&D is at its best when it accepts, if only tacitly, the notion that, by their actions, adventurers no longer have a place in the society from which they come, even if their actions often aid and protect that society.</I><BR/><BR/>This is so well-said I have nothing to add except to quote it for emphasis. <I>The Searchers</I> and <I>Seven Samurai</I> (which is a Western in samurai drag just as D&D is a Western in medieval fantasy drag) are probably the two biggest touchstones here.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31089637338976110362008-10-20T13:59:00.000-04:002008-10-20T13:59:00.000-04:00Westerns tend to be morality plays dressed up in b...<I>Westerns tend to be morality plays dressed up in brutal guise, in which the violence is used to incite action against a backdrop of moral certainty. They now seem quaintly outdated: current action films seem to be more about simple success for the protagonists: there's a "whatever works" attitude that is fundamentally uninterested in moral questions, and even superhero fiction, that last bastion of the morality play, has changed its message to an active questioning (or rather a smug deconstruction) of the moral certainty that used to be its bread and butter. In such an environment, I'm not sure your flawed heroes have much traction - fo them to be flawed, there has to be an implied spotless standard that they fail to achieve.</I><BR/><BR/>Very well said. I think the reference to Westerns is an apt one, as I'm convinced that the Western is the primary mode of American storytelling and, as such, one of the primary creative influences on <I>D&D</I>, though it's rarely outright acknowledged. A clear theme of the Western is the notion that, to defend civilization against "barbarians," one must pick up a gun and kill, but to do so is make oneself a barbarian and thus exclude oneself from the very thing you seek to defend. Once picking up a gun and killing is no longer seen as essentially barbaric, there is no longer any moral -- or dramatic -- conflict and you're left with the glorification of violence. In my opinion, <I>D&D</I> is at its best when it accepts, if only tacitly, the notion that, by their actions, adventurers no longer have a place in the society from which they come, even if their actions often aid and protect that society.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58513191194832431252008-10-20T13:51:00.000-04:002008-10-20T13:51:00.000-04:00Every D&D party I've ever seen has had at ...<I>Every D&D party I've ever seen has had at least one Anti-Nazi Gangster in it, but not all of them have had Rocketeers.</I><BR/><BR/>I'd agree with that. But how many parties have outright Nazis in them? And how many games allow you to play Nazis as simply one option among others?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46566337185749097952008-10-20T13:46:00.000-04:002008-10-20T13:46:00.000-04:00and everything to do with effectively letting outs...<I>and everything to do with effectively letting outsiders determine what is done within our hobby for simple fear of their disapproval.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think it's as simple as that, though; it'd be great if it were. The reality is, though, that the actions of a small minority of a minority within a given "community" can and often do reflect badly on the majority. Most people, in and outside the hobby, would agree that <I>Carcosa</I> goes too far in its descriptions, that it crosses some lines "outsiders" will see as reflective -- and negatively so -- of the wider hobby. Many gamers either don't get a thrill from tweaking the nose of Middle American sensibilities or simply don't want to have to explain for the Nth time that, no, stuff like this is far from common and in fact is generally disdained by the wider hobby. <BR/><BR/>I fail to see anything worthy of condemnation here. Indeed, I think taking into account how one's actions reflect on the community of which one is a part is responsible and praiseworthy.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7442946156958636342008-10-20T08:56:00.000-04:002008-10-20T08:56:00.000-04:00I actually think the problem is to do with changes...I actually think the problem is to do with changes in popular culture since D&D's inception: movies, especially, have tended in an ever more cheerfully amoral direction that's quite different from the horror-of-amorality fiction that was around in the 70s (of which Dirty Harry and Texas Chainsaw Massacre are probably the iconic examples). Westerns tend to be morality plays dressed up in brutal guise, in which the violence is used to incite action against a backdrop of moral certainty. They now seem quaintly outdated: current action films seem to be more about simple success for the protagonists: there's a "whatever works" attitude that is fundamentally uninterested in moral questions, and even superhero fiction, that last bastion of the morality play, has changed its message to an active questioning (or rather a smug deconstruction) of the moral certainty that used to be its bread and butter. In such an environment, I'm not sure your flawed heroes have much traction - fo them to be flawed, there has to be an implied spotless standard that they fail to achieve. <BR/><BR/>Regarding Conan the just king, arguably, this image - the plain man who cuts through all the casuistry of the sophisticated courtiers - is the narrative on which GWB won his first term in office. Looking at the narratives of the current campaign, I think spotless knights might be in again (if only briefly).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46887649306782072812008-10-18T20:46:00.000-04:002008-10-18T20:46:00.000-04:00I can't recall at the moment whether it was in the...I can't recall at the moment whether it was in the film or the original comic or both, but in <I>The Rocketeer</I> there's a point where the gangsters figure out that friggin' Nazis are behind the evil plot and they switch sides, because they may be killers and crooks but they ain't down with Nazis. Every D&D party I've ever seen has had at least one Anti-Nazi Gangster in it, but not all of them have had Rocketeers.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7087309513768624102008-10-18T20:01:00.000-04:002008-10-18T20:01:00.000-04:00As to what Maas said about high fantasy, and how t...As to what Maas said about high fantasy, and how there's a pulp "wave" going right now in the old school circles, I think it's a good point. 2e was so forcibly in favor of good-guy characters that high fantasy campaigns have become associated, I think, with meta-plots. A good-guy party that finds its own stuff to do without GM railroading is a perfectly good example of old school, free-form sandboxing as anything else.<BR/><BR/>High fantasy is a wide, overinclusive term, unfortunately, too. It seems to be used to include medieval settings, good-aligned characters, and high-magic campaigns, not to mention the taint of "railroading" that it's been unjustly tagged with. It's hard to talk about something when the term has become so freighted in popular usage.<BR/><BR/>Really, IIRC, all it means in a literary sense is that the characters are fighting evil instead of being relatively amoral (ok, James, "flawed heroes," not "amoral").Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36215575308476620162008-10-18T19:57:00.000-04:002008-10-18T19:57:00.000-04:00Hm. I'm curious to learn more. This post has been ...Hm. I'm curious to learn more. This post has been one of those that sparks my interest in pre-Tolkien fantasy.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37782904647955861082008-10-18T19:13:00.000-04:002008-10-18T19:13:00.000-04:00>>There's also the very real issue of ho...>>There's also the very real issue of how the hobby looks to outsiders, which I'm not simply willing to dismiss as needless paranoia.<BR/><BR/>Nah, the enemies are out there, and they're real. My use of the word "coward" has nothing to do with people setting their own limits of good taste (which is different than claiming someone else is disgusting and mentally ill, mind you), and everything to do with effectively letting outsiders determine what is done within our hobby for simple fear of their disapproval.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18635399305928178822008-10-18T19:00:00.000-04:002008-10-18T19:00:00.000-04:00Nor do I think that anyone who deems such a thing ...<I>Nor do I think that anyone who deems such a thing to be perfectly acceptable is morally deficient (at least not on that basis).</I><BR/><BR/>I presume by "such a thing" you mean descriptions of utterly depraved and evil acts? If that's your meaning, then, yes, I agree that it doesn't <I>necessarily</I> imply moral deficiency anymore than my enjoyment of the movie <I>Goodfellas</I> implies I'm in favor of theft, brutality, and murder. <BR/><BR/>That said, I think presentation and specificity are just as important as actual content. Likewise, I think it's important to bear in mind that, just because individual standards and tolerances differ, drawing a line somewhere is inappropriate or a sign of either cowardice or thought control. My concern is that some might confuse the difficulty pulp fantasy heroes have in deciding between right and wrong to mean that there is no right and wrong. There's also the very real issue of how the hobby looks to outsiders, which I'm not simply willing to dismiss as needless paranoia.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28879796984722248822008-10-18T17:20:00.000-04:002008-10-18T17:20:00.000-04:00I think it could be argued that it's something of ...I think it could be argued that it's something of a bildungsroman (bildungsmovie?) and the "what is good in life" quote is not meant to be emblematic of the final character. But I won't go too far in that defense.<BR/><BR/>I think your point relates to why sometimes I can't laugh very sincerely with various jokes about gazebos, magic missiles against the darkness, or Dungeon Majesty. It's the same sort of feeling when a player tries to force an especially ridiculous or irreverent PC into the campaign, but maybe that's drifting to another topic.K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15140592561271090112008-10-18T16:55:00.000-04:002008-10-18T16:55:00.000-04:00maasenstodt, I bet your favourite characters in Lo...<I>maasenstodt, I bet your favourite characters in LoTR were the flawed ones - Frodo, Sam and Faramir, not Gandalf and Aragorn.</I><BR/><BR/>In all truthfulness, if I had to name my favorite characters from LotR, I'd answer, without hesitation, Aragorn and Eowyn. And while I consider both to be heroic, I consider neither to be flawless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86932283453378800912008-10-18T16:32:00.000-04:002008-10-18T16:32:00.000-04:00maasenstodt, I bet your favourite characters in Lo...maasenstodt, I bet your favourite characters in LoTR were the flawed ones - Frodo, Sam and Faramir, not Gandalf and Aragorn. In the movie, the most engaging of the characters were undoubtedly the flawed ones (Frodo and Boromir).<BR/><BR/>Even High Fantasy contains a lot of space for the anti-hero and the loser. I would claim Iain M. Banks sci-fi has many of the traits of high fantasy but his characters are definitely flawed. <BR/><BR/>The anti-hero is where it's at, maaan, even in High Fantasy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com