tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1918987261932160636..comments2024-03-28T20:36:33.364-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Random Roll: DMG, p. 112James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86268311783752298282021-02-22T11:20:41.579-05:002021-02-22T11:20:41.579-05:00Like you, I used to feel lost in the 1e DMG. It t...Like you, I used to feel lost in the 1e DMG. It took years for my appreciation of it to grow. Running a very long term campaign was the key...then the Aha! moments started to come.<br /><br />I remember one of the first in particular: my players were headed into an underwater section of a home-brewed dungeon. I turned to that section about underwater spells and it clicked! Here was a collection of tips---from possibly the greatest DM of all---helping me deal with the potentially infinite complexity of open-ended, sandbox D&D. You just don't need it much running purchased modules (because they are already pre-DM'd for you in a sense).<br /><br />There were many time since then that I felt like I was high-flying without a safety net---trying to just roll with the direction the players were taking the game---that I bumped into clues in the 1e DMG that showed our group had stumbled into common territory. It felt like an affirmation that we were "getting it right".<br /><br />Because (great) D&D is so open-ended, it's hard to explain how to play it. It's far easier to be mentored than glean it cold from a text. I am reminded of a Zen Koan that says, "When the student is ready, the Master speaks." To me this means that until you need the knowledge (for YOUR game), the words in the 1e DMG tend to fall on deaf ears. You just can't unpack it. Apparent gibberish!<br /><br />James is right about one thing for sure: the long campaign is the key.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10508494841874138132021-02-22T11:03:33.989-05:002021-02-22T11:03:33.989-05:00I think that if the 1e DMG had just numbered it...I think that if the 1e DMG had just numbered it's sections by depth (instead of just relying on bold font-sizes), a lot of the confusion would have gone away.<br /><br />When you look at the table of contents (something which I never initially did enough), the organization is less cryptic. Imagine: <br />16 COMBAT<br />16.1 ENCOUNTERS, COMBAT, AND INITIATIVE<br />16.1.1 Surprise<br /><br />Then, when it self referenced (e.g. see 16.1.1, Surprise), you might have easily known how many pages to turn---and what section you were currently reading!squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25150493506140360462021-02-20T15:51:53.058-05:002021-02-20T15:51:53.058-05:00JB, could you be persuaded to share a link or two ...JB, could you be persuaded to share a link or two to those podcasts in which "moral relativism in D&D" was discussed?L. Beauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652846614886274866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7663000619011556842021-02-20T10:27:35.043-05:002021-02-20T10:27:35.043-05:00Heresy alert: can't help it, but I just don...Heresy alert: can't help it, but I just don't share the fetishism for the 1st ed. DMG what seems to be taken for granted in OSR circles. It's just what it looks like, ponderous, heavy-handed, digressing in a million quite bizarre directions, many of which just don't serve any purpose gameplay-wise. I like baroque meandering as much as the next guy, but I prefer stuff that actually helps me running a game or designing an adventure, a topic almost completely missing from the ur-codex of game mastering. Even the bland 2nd ed. DMG feels refreshing in comparison, by the virtue of better editing if nothing else.Voljahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08826776454392269862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51401250168362402622021-02-19T20:09:56.797-05:002021-02-19T20:09:56.797-05:00That wouldn’t surprise me.That wouldn’t surprise me.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72476443632507364242021-02-19T16:36:42.065-05:002021-02-19T16:36:42.065-05:00What you say in the last sentence of your post is ...What you say in the last sentence of your post is quite true: whatever you think of him, Gary Gygax was good at role-playing games (and other kinds of games too). But you can't make a living by playing RPGs, so we get Gary the businessman, a role he did not play so well. Sometimes I wonder if Gygax's insistence on by-the-book AD&D as a necessary foundation for tournament play arose in part from wanting a world where you could make a living, or at least some money, from playing RPGs.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34301515488710067862021-02-19T16:10:05.851-05:002021-02-19T16:10:05.851-05:00I played a lot of 2e back in the day and actually ...I played a lot of 2e back in the day and actually have quite fond memories of it, though I still think the rulebooks lacked the <i>flavor</i> Gygax imparted to the 1e books with his highfalutin vocabulary and weird digressions.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26960643169393277202021-02-19T15:39:10.014-05:002021-02-19T15:39:10.014-05:00I would agree that it's weird to lambaste the ...I would agree that it's weird to lambaste the 1e DMG for not being useful, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to complain that it's not very *usable.* It's a winding, byzantine maze of concepts and ideas splattered onto the pages seemingly as Gygax thought of them, and admits no real structure or organisation. There's a lot of good stuff there, to be sure, but digging it out can be a mighty challenge. <br /><br />Me, I've always been more partial to the 2e DMG, which is more sensibly laid out (and with parallel organisation to the 2e PHB and a combined index, both of which are a huge help) and contains less esoterica, but plenty of information on adjudicating strange cases and creating new rules and systems. That may not be something I need now, but, as a young player way back when, it was gold. <br /><br />Of course, I would say that, since I'm that most hated of creatures: the 2e grognard. ;-)Darien Sumnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08586351803319498406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90113266902891909732021-02-19T12:20:56.165-05:002021-02-19T12:20:56.165-05:00The 1e DMG gets a lot of flak for not being "...The 1e DMG gets a lot of flak for not being "useful," which is odd because, by my lights, it's the only DMG that can reasonably be called that. James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29239270476833080422021-02-19T12:16:26.539-05:002021-02-19T12:16:26.539-05:00Great post and resonates with my personal experien...Great post and resonates with my personal experience. I love the 1e DMG for this very reason---it's bread-crumb clues on how the long-term and complex campaign morphs and plays out.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63503969754988625922021-02-19T10:57:53.601-05:002021-02-19T10:57:53.601-05:00That's great! I'm glad to hear it.That's great! I'm glad to hear it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22224585559298691112021-02-19T10:29:02.221-05:002021-02-19T10:29:02.221-05:00In your post on Gygax's sequel novel I comment...In your post on Gygax's sequel novel I commented that <br /><br />"...Artifact of Evil is illustrative of AD&D play (especially circa 1986ish). Certainly that kind of thing (albeit with different "fantasy world politics") made its way into a lot of our home games, back in the day."<br /><br />Now, after reading THIS post, I think it is even MORE SO...it is in fact illustrative of how Gygax believed a campaign should develop and be run.<br /><br />I don't know why I glaze over these DMG passages when I read them; Lord knows I've read the section you cite dozens of times over the years (even a couple in the last year) trying to glean what I can of EGG's "wisdom." But I guess most of the time I'm reading it with the assumption its just "purple prose" rather than actual INSTRUCTION...despite the fact that my examinations of most of his AD&D writing has shown it to be lean and mean and devoid of "filler."<br /><br />I've been running an AD&D game for the last few months, trying to get back to The Magic of my youth and somehow failing to find it. Despite running a decent, "mature" game grounded in the nitty-gritty rather than any idea of "cosmic struggle," the very ennui Gygax warns against has begun to set in at the edges, both for me and (I think) my players. And even as I've been scrambling to find ideas to stave off the inevitable, I found myself less inclined to do so...the thing already started to feel like it was wilting on the vine, despite a general enthusiasm for the mechanics of gameplay. I think now the issue may just be that the campaign lacks any substantive meaning.<br /><br />James, this post has been very helpful. Along with a recent podcast or two discussing moral relativism in D&D, I think I've got a bit of a direction for getting out of my funk. Thank you for that.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.com