tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1927772675938801015..comments2024-03-29T07:58:31.156-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Random Roll: DMG, p. 60James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19202272379710179772021-04-25T12:45:35.847-04:002021-04-25T12:45:35.847-04:00@DickMcGee: "Personal codes of behavior are j...@DickMcGee: "Personal codes of behavior are just that, personal."<br /><br />Alignment IS personal. Which is why every PC can have their own different alignment.<br />Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56019961083621001032021-04-25T09:52:46.382-04:002021-04-25T09:52:46.382-04:00@Dick McGee: I still agree with Gygax that alignm...@Dick McGee: I still agree with Gygax that alignment drives the campaign.<br /><br />It doesn't get more old school than Keep on the Borderlands.<br /><br />Galahad would lead a quest against the festering evil at the Caves of Chaos.<br /><br />If the temple of Evil Chaos is devoted to Arioch, Elric might rally the monsters of the Caves and sack the Keep. (Gygax's Keep is so detailed as to anticipate such a possibility)<br /><br />And, on a whim, Conan might be inclined sack the Caves or the Keep, depending on how the civilized folk at the Keep treat him.<br /><br />One adventure module. Wildly different campaign paths. All dictated by PC alignment.<br /><br />Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77659500317727649362021-04-25T09:44:43.998-04:002021-04-25T09:44:43.998-04:00I'll try to explain.
In general, Galahad'...I'll try to explain.<br /><br />In general, Galahad's "personal code" would not disagree much with this: Order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest. <br /><br />It's also Gygax's definition of the Lawful Good alignment from the DMG.<br /><br />Conan's personal code is to bristle against the corrupt authority of civilization, and embrace personal freedom above all.<br /><br />Sounds like Gygax's Chaotic Neutral to me.<br /><br />"Personal code" was how pulp magazines talked about alignment. Doc Savage had a "personal code" that equates with Lawful Good. Hard-boiled private detectives like Sam Spade often have a "personal code" that is mentioned alot because (like Conan) it differs sharply from the society in which they operate. <br /><br />A product of the same pulp magazines, Conan is a Chaotic Neutral barbarian often moving through corrupt 'civilized' societies that are Lawful Neutral or even Lawful Evil. <br /><br />In AD&D, mechanical traps and bottle of poison don't have an alignment. Because they can't have a personal code.<br />Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44076619470025292642021-04-25T08:46:40.767-04:002021-04-25T08:46:40.767-04:00@Jihn Higgins I agree with your disagreement. Per...@Jihn Higgins I agree with your disagreement. Personal codes of behavior are just that, personal. They might be informed by experience, upbringing, and the culture you're operating in, but ultimately they're yours and yours alone and only their practitioner can define when they've been kept or broken. Alignment is at best a failed attempt to use simplistic labels on complex subjects, and at worst just an shallow excuse for slaughtering people who aren't playing on the "right" team.Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36056905439254645442021-04-24T19:32:44.493-04:002021-04-24T19:32:44.493-04:00>We agree. Because personal code is just anothe...>We agree. Because personal code is just another way to say alignment.<br /><br />I disagree emphatically.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89408849732986241192021-04-24T19:22:05.091-04:002021-04-24T19:22:05.091-04:00"all it really does for players is constrain ..."all it really does for players is constrain their characters' prospective actions"<br /><br />But that is part of the point, no? If there is no alignment, PCs will quite happily fall back on doing whatever takes their fancy to get money and XPs ie they will simply act in a chaotic evil (to one degree or another) fashion all the time and justify it as "being realistic". In games where there are no alignments, the same thing happens unless there are other constraints that work pretty much the same way as alignment eg mission objectives and high-ranking NPCs who can find out (eventually) how the PCs acted.DominusCaveaVulpeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16317537974568062563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44189892877238231552021-04-24T17:09:58.661-04:002021-04-24T17:09:58.661-04:00>Galahad and Conan, at least, are different bec...>Galahad and Conan, at least, are different because of personal codes, <br /><br />We agree. Because personal code is just another way to say alignment. :)<br /><br /><br />>Moorcockian alignment.<br /><br />Gygax says 'alignment' is downright essential to AD&D, not 'Moorcockian alignment.'<br /><br />Moorcock's alignment philosophy doesn't include Good and Evil, and AD&D does.<br /><br />But you can say a PC's personal code is downright essential to AD&D if you like. And that would be perfectly aligned with Gygax's philosophy towards alignment. :)Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88608955224499335412021-04-24T16:30:16.481-04:002021-04-24T16:30:16.481-04:00>A key reason why the adventures of Sir Galahad...>A key reason why the adventures of Sir Galahad, Conan the barbarian and Elric of Melnibone are so different is because they have different alignments.<br /><br />And I would argue that Galahad and Conan, at least, are different because of personal codes, not anything resembling Moorcockian alignment.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77961202727902832932021-04-24T15:51:49.015-04:002021-04-24T15:51:49.015-04:00I respectfully disagree. PC alignment is central ...I respectfully disagree. PC alignment is central to a campaign.<br /><br />A key reason why the adventures of Sir Galahad, Conan the barbarian and Elric of Melnibone are so different is because they have different alignments. <br /><br />Gygax is right. It's downright essential.Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57332567726755890472021-04-23T22:46:25.883-04:002021-04-23T22:46:25.883-04:00Chalk me up as one who (still, after all these yea...Chalk me up as one who (still, after all these years of trying to understand old-school D&D on its own terms) doesn't find alignment to be a particularly useful concept in running campaigns. Gygax calls it downright essential to AD&D in the DMG, but as near as I can tell, all it really does for players is constrain their characters' prospective actions (and in that capacity it also serves as a trap that can cost them XP or more).<br /><br />To the extent that Gygax's own Greyhawk campaign had a healthy dose of Michael Moorcock serving as one of the key ingredients of the sword & sorcery mélange — a fact that alignments, planes, and sapient swords make plain, I should think — then I can see why alignment would be important to Gary. But if you're not out to ape either Michael Moorcock or Poul Anderson in your own game, the value of explicit cosmic alignment seems all the more dubious.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88577484778358319902021-04-23T15:26:58.617-04:002021-04-23T15:26:58.617-04:00Agree!Agree!Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53959009457999809702021-04-23T11:21:00.642-04:002021-04-23T11:21:00.642-04:00I have a further thought, in response to James'...I have a further thought, in response to James's confusion about the morality of traps. James says, "...if harm is the trap's purpose, how can that be good?" I would say that harm is not the <i>trap's</i> purpose, but its <i>maker's</i> (yes, I am aware that I'm using "purpose" differently than James did, but bear with me). A trap has no sentience, and cannot have any good or evil intentions. The trap's maker may intend harm, but the trap cannot. The imagined trap leading to Bahamut radiates good only because Bahamut is good; that his goodness may cause harm to evil creatures encountering the trap is irrelevant.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67276095251197937182021-04-23T11:00:59.609-04:002021-04-23T11:00:59.609-04:00I think I see why he mentions it as part of a trap...I think I see why he mentions it as part of a trap. He really does want to talk about traps to begin with, as another example of something that won't be detected by Detect Evil. Someone might argue that a trap is evil, and hence detectable, because it is deceitful and injurious: that's evil, right? But of course a trap is not evil, any more than poison is, because it's non-sentient and therefore has no moral dimension in and of itself. A trap associated with some strong good or evil force (such as Bahamut or Tiamat) would radiate good or evil, though, because of that association.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55087267035450026632021-04-23T09:14:27.322-04:002021-04-23T09:14:27.322-04:00That was my take on it as well. I'd extend it...That was my take on it as well. I'd extend it to anything that has a strong planar connection of some kind - gates are obvious, but also an artifact that draws power from or originated on an aligned plane, the remains of a powerful extraplanar creature (assuming they're not one of those that just respawn on their home plane on death), sites of ritual magic strongly connected to a given plane, etc. The outer Planes ought to leave their mark on things and creatures that derive power from them.Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40583010633288382482021-04-23T03:54:25.054-04:002021-04-23T03:54:25.054-04:00Maybe he’s just implying that gates to good/evil p...Maybe he’s just implying that gates to good/evil planes will radiate the corresponding aura. It is confusing to mention this as only as part of a trap, though.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34865941116590298922021-04-23T01:35:31.353-04:002021-04-23T01:35:31.353-04:00I've always used that DMG passage as a guide e...I've always used that DMG passage as a guide especially with your standard paladin who wants to detect everyone for evil. I figure the spell or ability detecting a cosmic sort of evil (or good) makes a lot more sense. Know Alignment on the the other hand is pretty much the worst. ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05866236293322652977noreply@blogger.com