tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2330035874695034119..comments2024-03-28T09:41:39.187-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: I Have to AdmitJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6826602313922949042010-03-24T23:59:31.660-04:002010-03-24T23:59:31.660-04:00Wally said...
The Goodman RPG could be good or bad...<i> Wally said...<br />The Goodman RPG could be good or bad as a game, but it feels unnecessary.</i><br />This is a characteristic shared by every game ever created in the history of ever- with possible exception of strip volley ball.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69313631261814505262010-03-24T23:29:41.742-04:002010-03-24T23:29:41.742-04:00For those who have never played old school games b...For those who have never played old school games but want to get into them or who are coming back to them after some time, what exactly are they to play if they cannot get their hands on the vaunted "proper" rules?<br /><br />If the question is what do retro-clones and "knock-offs" do to advance OSR hobby, then my answer would b to keep it alive beyond the years of the aging fellows (myself included) who enjoy their style of play.<br /><br />Accessibility and availability is the main advantages of the clones or new products that attempt to revive that style of play.<br /><br />I just don't understand the amount of irritation that these sorts of things generate. Whatever happened to playing the games you wanted to and leaving others well enough alone to do the same?<br /><br />-EliEli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47662342536307833412010-03-24T22:47:27.832-04:002010-03-24T22:47:27.832-04:00Heck, just a few comments back, Wally nearly said ...<em>Heck, just a few comments back, Wally nearly said as much.</em><br /><br />I am very possibly the polar opposite of 'representative of this online community.'<br /><br />That said, knockoffs are lame and boring and don't advance the state-of-the-<em>anything</em>, and the OSR is careening toward Knockoffland if it isn't parked there already. Variations on D&D are still D&D, more or less; variations in branding don't help anything. The Goodman RPG could be good or bad as a game, but it feels <em>unnecessary</em>.<br /><br />Check out the OSR sidebars: nearly all the folks are playing Gygax games or retro-clones. As James just said: "For a great many old schoolers, D&D of some form or another is all they're interested in, so broad mechanical compatibility with D&D is important."Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51245194387727857042010-03-24T14:37:30.067-04:002010-03-24T14:37:30.067-04:00Yes,
They have. Every time somebody upholds the i...Yes,<br /><br />They have. Every time somebody upholds the idea that something other than red box or OD&D is somehow lesser or that retro-clones are hurting the movement or whatever.<br /><br />Though nobody has used my words, which were intended to be as comedic as they were pointed, they have expressed that very same feeling countless times in blog posts and comments made across the net. <br /><br />Heck, just a few comments back, Wally nearly said as much.<br /><br />-EliEli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58486103822643405252010-03-24T13:58:30.911-04:002010-03-24T13:58:30.911-04:00Is a game any less OSR because it doesn't have...<i>Is a game any less OSR because it doesn't have the holy mark of Gygax on it?</i><br /><br>Does <i>anyone</i> really hold this position or a position even remotely like it?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34964979394856269142010-03-24T13:57:08.413-04:002010-03-24T13:57:08.413-04:00I am sure there are a host of things that even Gyg...<i>I am sure there are a host of things that even Gygax himself would have like to have added or tried at one some point.</i><br /><br>Certainly, but you must remember that, despite imprecations to the contrary, many of us <i>reject</i> the things Gygax wanted to add. <i>Unearthed Arcana</i>, for example, is widely disliked among old schoolers precisely because it changes many aspects of <i>D&D</i>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73095842118853786132010-03-24T13:54:32.024-04:002010-03-24T13:54:32.024-04:00Can some other posters, or maybe even James himsel...<i>Can some other posters, or maybe even James himself chime in and clarify if OLD SCHOOL is a philosophy on HOW TO PLAY the game or about WHAT GAME TO PLAY?</i><br /><br>Why can't it be both, at least in part? <br /><br />I continue to maintain that mechanics matter by setting a tone for play and expectations in players. Certain game designs actively work against putting old school philosophies into action. In the hands of an able referee, you can make almost any system serve old school ends, but, after a while, why try to row upstream? That's why I personally feel that what game one plays can be as important as how one plays it. This is a position not everyone in the old school movement shares, but I think it's a defensible position nonetheless.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45514682921369025502010-03-24T13:50:02.500-04:002010-03-24T13:50:02.500-04:00Are we talking about being able to use the same ch...<i>Are we talking about being able to use the same character stat blocks with little modification or simply the big-picture stuff?</i><br /><br>It's a complicated question. For a great many old schoolers, <i>D&D</i> of some form or another is all they're interested in, so broad mechanical compatibility with <i>D&D</i> is important. Others have wider interests and are quite happy to see more "experimental" old school designs that don't cleave as closely to the <i>D&D</i> mechanics. <br /><br />My post was primarily a response to the notion that there are already too many mechanically similar <i>D&D</i> clones out there and wasn't intended to address the bigger question of whether all the old school movement is about is <i>D&D</i>. To that, I'd say no, with the caveat that <i>D&D</i>, as in the wider hobby, will always be the 800 lb. gorilla, so it's not surprising to see much of the conversation dominated by it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25558602865692700812010-03-24T13:45:46.741-04:002010-03-24T13:45:46.741-04:00James, you didn't mention BFRP. It's been ...<i>James, you didn't mention BFRP. It's been out since 2006 I believe. Version two is available now and it's beautiful.<br />And it's free. And the Lulu POD copies are at cost and inexpensive.</i><br /><br>You're right. I often forget BFRP because it's the one clone-ish game I've never played.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59856761934917379782010-03-24T13:44:46.835-04:002010-03-24T13:44:46.835-04:00That actually isn't true. Goodman released sor...<i>That actually isn't true. Goodman released sort of "generic" 1e compatible conversions, sort of like PPP does, but he won't touch OSRIC as a brand at all. Just a random bit of info. ;-)</i><br /><br>You're right, of course. I guess I keep forgetting how OSRIC is still viewed in some quarters.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74165218452861541502010-03-24T13:43:33.540-04:002010-03-24T13:43:33.540-04:00There we have it, now Old School is not HOW you pl...<i>There we have it, now Old School is not HOW you play the game, but WHAT game you play.</i><br /><br>To be fair, what game you play <i>is</i> important. Otherwise, there'd be no point in not playing the latest edition of <i>D&D</i> whenever it comes out. <br /><br /><i>That is the snobbism I was talking about.</i><br /><br>What's snobby about rejecting a particular game as not being old school? There are lots of fine RPGs that aren't old school. I've played and enjoyed many of them. Heck, I've written for many of them, which, in the eyes of some, excommunicates me from the old school fraternity.<br /><br /><i>Thinking about that, it might be a reason why James Mischler went out of business. He produced C&C compatible stuff. And C&C is not old school as Will pointed out.</i><br /><br>I cannot speculate on what caused AGP to have such comparatively poor sales, but I don't think his choice of system was a huge factor. I'm no fan of C&C myself and I was happy to purchase many of his products, which almost universally impressed me. If others did not feel similarly, I'd be amazed if their being for C&C was the primary factor.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2262060191237950072010-03-24T13:19:35.446-04:002010-03-24T13:19:35.446-04:00@Will,
I am not sure OSR even knows what it's...@Will,<br /><br />I am not sure OSR even knows what it's all about. You ask ten people who consider themselves OSR folk and they'll likely give you different variations.<br /><br />Incoherrant movement? Guiding principal?<br /><br />We're talking about sitting in dim rooms, rolling dice and pretending to be somebody else for a few hours at a time. This isn't government or social reform here.<br /><br />I really think this whole thing is really taking itself a bit too seriously. Honestly, I couldn't give a damn who wrote a game if it's fun. Is a game any less OSR because it doesn't have the holy mark of Gygax on it?<br /><br />-EliEli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47455750902809540162010-03-24T13:12:59.052-04:002010-03-24T13:12:59.052-04:00@Wally,
There are those who feel that the OSR thi...@Wally,<br /><br />There are those who feel that the OSR thing is more about preserving the style and feel of those older games we loved in the past and less about preserving the games themselves.<br /><br />One main issue I have with the OSR idea that the Gygax rules should be it is that these rules really aren't available and out there. Sure you can download them someplace or hunt down ragged copies or pay collector's prices for new stuff, but not everyone wants or has the means to do so.<br /><br />The retro-clones or original works with OSR feel allow for that same "vibe" to be enjoyed through new, living product lines. They also allow for *gasp* innovation that perhaps benefits those earlier versions without damaging them. <br /><br />I am sure there are a host of things that even Gygax himself would have like to have added or tried at one some point.<br /><br />-EliEli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87454210392957555942010-03-24T12:54:36.452-04:002010-03-24T12:54:36.452-04:00And let's be frank: if C&C and Hackmaster ...And let's be frank: if C&C and Hackmaster aren't moving the field forward, why in the world *do* they exist? Better to amplify what already exists, perhaps.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5874133690145018732010-03-24T12:53:25.567-04:002010-03-24T12:53:25.567-04:00Statements like:
File under "Castles & C...<em>Statements like:<br /><br />File under "Castles & Crusades, Hackmaster, utterly pointless."<br /><br />don't help the OSR movement. IF anything, it detracts from it, and it's based solely on personal opinion and conjecture.<br /><br />What's the worst that could happen? Maybe it's (GASP!)a good game?</em><br /><br />Well, but one of the key claims of the OSR as an organized movement is that OD&D and AD&D are good enough on their own, and still have the power to attract new players. Even the less-than-inspiring OSR materials that fail to bear out this claim still flow from a preservationist feeling (and a feeling of responsibility both FOR and TO the tradition).<br /><br />At a certain point it really is counterproductive for this particular group of guys to keep churning out more-or-less substantive variations on the old games - particularly if the OSR folks share the goal of keeping Gygax's rules in print and 'officially' supportable.<br /><br />It's not clear, of course, that this Goodman game represents supersaturation. But as they say, Folks gotta get paid. For those not already living comfortably, that's the big deal, no?Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24508241433996960212010-03-23T21:16:46.197-04:002010-03-23T21:16:46.197-04:00"Are we going to argue over the 'one true..."Are we going to argue over the 'one true box'?"<br /><br />What's to argue? I was under the impression that all of the various D&D versions released prior to Gygax's ouster from TSR collectively constituted the "one true game" and that the OSR movement was about primarily popularizing and promoting their continued use.<br /><br />If that's not so, and anyone has the right to represent their own, brand new games as "old school D&D" with no dissent from that viewpoint tolerated? Well, that's a problem. It's called a completely incoherent movement without the necessary foundation of a single guiding principal or goal.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20209902606131877042010-03-23T16:36:00.399-04:002010-03-23T16:36:00.399-04:00OSR now means Old School Reformation?
Are we goin...OSR now means Old School Reformation?<br /><br />Are we going to argue over the "one true box"?<br /><br />-EliEli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87179537739303785032010-03-23T16:21:35.642-04:002010-03-23T16:21:35.642-04:00I'm really surprised at the poo-pooing here ab...I'm really surprised at the poo-pooing here about this product which, BTW, most of us no nothing about it.<br /><br />AFAICT, those who did play it at GaryCon (and old-school con BTW) seem to enjoy the game.<br /><br />Holding judgment based upon an ad is pretty stupid.<br /><br />ALL OSR RPGs need to be examined on their own merits and people will make personal choices on what they like. <br /><br />Statements like:<br /><br />File under "Castles & Crusades, Hackmaster, utterly pointless."<br /><br />don't help the OSR movement. IF anything, it detracts from it, and it's based solely on personal opinion and conjecture.<br /><br />What's the worst that could happen? Maybe it's (GASP!)a good game?<br /><br />And if it's bad? So what? It hurts nobody but Goodman Games.<br /><br />There are plenty of OSR-type games out there, so if one doesn't make it...oh well.<br /><br />Let's judge it by it's content not by it "cover", as it were.blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52531677256910479332010-03-23T14:33:58.707-04:002010-03-23T14:33:58.707-04:00Not to fight or anything - the ad's/Goodman...Not to fight or anything - the ad's/Goodman's particular interpretation of what pulp dungeon-crawling feels like just strikes me as bloodthirsty, and I didn't see that fact being called out. As much as anything, OD&D is a good game for <em>comic</em> fantasy shenanigans; the defensive self-seriousness of so many subsequent fantasy RPGs is one of the shortcomings of the genre.<br /><br />(All WotC's published materials have been embarrassing on this score - lacking the poetic grimness of Warhammer and the good nature of TSR's pre-2e materials. That 4e's abstract combat system is a return to the cartoonish abstractions of early RPGs gets buried under the lamentable aesthetics of the new stuff.)Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29903707926940906072010-03-23T14:20:05.718-04:002010-03-23T14:20:05.718-04:00Oh s***, Wally's back.Oh s***, Wally's back.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-92212209004272005512010-03-23T10:23:59.282-04:002010-03-23T10:23:59.282-04:00Awfully bloodthirsty ad copy there. That's one...Awfully bloodthirsty ad copy there. That's one thing that strikes me as decidedly <em>unlike</em> the late-70's RPGs, which (to my eye) deemphasized the whole 'blood and filth of the weak' nonsense that this ad is putting out. (Blood of a dragon? Swell. Dragons are forces of nature. Blood of, say, a deranged religious zealot? Now we're into creepytown.)<br /><br />Of course this a cynical, even contemptuous ad - but it's only an ad. If the game is good it will advertise itself.<br /><br />They should bundle a digest-format edition of Raggi's Creature Generator with the new game.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27969110533964763382010-03-23T09:43:18.942-04:002010-03-23T09:43:18.942-04:00There we have it, now Old School is not HOW you pl...There we have it, now Old School is not HOW you play the game, but WHAT game you play.<br /><br />That is the snobbism I was talking about.<br /><br />Thinking about that, it might be a reason why James Mischler went out of business. He produced C&C compatible stuff. And C&C is not old school as Will pointed out.KristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49257525128002436712010-03-23T09:21:55.829-04:002010-03-23T09:21:55.829-04:00I like the ad much better when I substitute "...I like the ad much better when I substitute "we" for "you":<br /><br />"We're no heroes.<br /><br />We're a reaver, a cutpurse, a heathen-slayer, a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets.<br /><br />We seek gold and glory, winning it with sword and...yada yada."<br /><br />My problem with the project is that Goodman has always presented us with a caricature of "old school", as evidenced by the line "when every NPC was meant to be killed" on their old DCC line of modules. This seems likely to continue that approach.<br /><br />That's what it was like in the old days? No, I think not. I was there, and not every NPC was meant to be killed. <br /><br />Putting Roslof, Otus (whose stuff has gone decidedly downhill, IMO), or Holloway artwork on the cover doesn't make the content "old school", whatever that is. But it has and will likely continue to sell copies of the product. Gotta hand it to them for being able to survive, let alone thrive, in the current state of the industry. I've never been a customer, and don't plan to be, but obviously someone is.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82528177074193571812010-03-23T08:13:52.102-04:002010-03-23T08:13:52.102-04:00"When some OSR hobby publisher announces that..."When some OSR hobby publisher announces that he will create another clone"<br /><br />"Another clone" is not pointless at all, if you're familiar with the retro-clone movement and what its designs are intended to facilitate (easily publishing new material using the old rules).<br /><br />What's pointless is a whole new "old school" game from scratch when both the originals *and their clones* are already both serving that need.<br /><br />So if you really don't grasp the difference between, say, OSRIC and Castles & Crusades, or Labyrinth Lord and Hackmaster, that's your basic misunderstanding, not mine.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14382522545963102322010-03-23T06:57:44.192-04:002010-03-23T06:57:44.192-04:00There're already more clones than I think is g...There're already more clones than I think is good, and I'm not overwhelmed by excitement at the idea of some sort of stripped-down 3e (if that means OGL, then I'm definitely out). <br /><br />IAt this point, 'd far rather someone like Goodman picked up one of the existing clones and made it their "house system" than fracture the market even further.<br /><br />FWIW, I felt the same about Basic/Expert back in the day: what's the point of two very similar systems which are trying to give the same sort of game? Stop wasting time with more bloody rules fluff and give me some crunchy settings and ideas I can actually use to play with the rules I have.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.com