tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2379602790403767347..comments2024-03-28T18:47:26.087-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: No Game for Young MenJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83505312791026341612011-10-30T17:42:09.066-04:002011-10-30T17:42:09.066-04:00Sorry, but Traveller was released in '77 and w...Sorry, but Traveller was released in '77 and was intended to allow you to play Star Trek typed adventures. Star Wars came out the same year and did not influence Traveller as was previously mentioned. As a game designer I can tell you that you don't throw a work like Traveller together in a month or so....<br /><br />Space Above & Beyond, Firefly, and both Battlestar Galactica versions (but most especially the reimagined one) capture the 'feel' of Traveller in different ways. SAAB is a Marine/Ground Pounder focused show, Firefly is a Merchant/Tramp Free Trader show, and BSG is a High Guard show. While not 'technically' based in the OTU, they capture what Traveller players love about life in the Imperium: gritty human drama in space. <br /><br />I love your site here and am adding it to my blog page. <br /><br />For those of you who love Traveller, you may enjoy my miniature conversions that I have up on my blog at http://4sparta.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I'm using them in my skirmish game as Imperial Marines with either Battledress or Combat Armor, depending on my mood. :)<br /><br />Keep up the great work on your blog, and thanks for keeping the Traveller flame alive.<br /><br />Strike from Space!Faust23https://www.blogger.com/profile/00743648278435764848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52792108417584048642009-01-29T15:50:00.000-05:002009-01-29T15:50:00.000-05:00I was one of those 'young men' that the game was n...I was one of those 'young men' that the game was not for.<BR/><BR/>I think that at that time I was too awestruck by Star Wars to want anything out of the LBB but the specs on stormtrooper armor.<BR/><BR/>I think I was probably 12-13. Military service? I couldn't relate.<BR/><BR/>Now I can, and I love the game and have certainly managed to shake off Star Wars worship (Thanks Episode 1!). I have definately found that I prefer the 'Average Joe' game-style over the 'Heroic Joseph'.<BR/><BR/>(BTW, if I've responded twice, I apologize.)Ragnorakkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03812860633134547618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7624093725987998642009-01-29T10:29:00.000-05:002009-01-29T10:29:00.000-05:00Quite a discussion. ~_^I love that most Traveller ...Quite a discussion. ~_^<BR/><BR/>I love that most Traveller PCs are accomplished characters retired from their first careers.<BR/><BR/>I also love that we often had at least one young guy who washed out career-wise and took up a life of adventure early. Sure, he didn’t have a lot of skills, but that didn’t really matter. We took even a single level in a skill as meaning a considerable amount of expertise. Having skills was good, but you could still do an awful lot without them.<BR/><BR/>What I have to say about Star Wars and Traveller is only this...<BR/><BR/>When I was young, I always wanted D&D to fit more of a mythic and historical mold. These days I’m more interested in pulp fantasy and trying to make my D&D more like it.<BR/><BR/>When I was young, I didn’t want Traveller to be anything like Star Wars. After all, Star Wars is fantasy—not science-fiction.† These days, I really like the idea of bringing Star Wars a little closer to Traveller‡ and Traveller a little closer to Star Wars to find something interesting in the middle.<BR/><BR/>It’s funny how those are in some ways opposites, but also parallels.<BR/><BR/>†As I probably railed at too much “science-fiction” in my D&D fantasy then, but embrace it more now.<BR/><BR/>‡Kind of similar to the “steampunk Star Wars” idea that I also find very interesting.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70872572033058311772009-01-29T10:28:00.000-05:002009-01-29T10:28:00.000-05:00Vraymond said, "I mean, if you want to bring up Fo...Vraymond said, "I mean, if you want to bring up Foucault, Baudrillard, Lyotard (and anyone else), please do so. We might have a more clear discussion that way."<BR/><BR/>Thank you, Vraymond. Sincerely, Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43853469656544394512009-01-28T23:22:00.000-05:002009-01-28T23:22:00.000-05:00In Chaosium's Ringworld game, one could theoretica...In Chaosium's Ringworld game, one could theoretically start with a character as much as 459 years old ... but GMs were urged to use an average of mid-40s for experienced players, mid-20s to early 30s for beginners (as older characters had many options in generation).Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80018070593797702642009-01-28T21:35:00.000-05:002009-01-28T21:35:00.000-05:00I would agree that B5 & Farscape all have &quo...I would agree that B5 & Farscape all have "Traveller" feelings and may have the grit necessary but this was more due a maturing of the TV genre. However, they fell back in to many times a sort of cliched, ok, let's pull an alien out of the magician's hat. Firefly differed because it once again told the story of SF without resorting to all the tropes that had become so much a staple of Science Fiction since...Classic Trek or earlier.<BR/><BR/>Traveller players who live in a human centred universe immediately found kinship with their game. True, they should have been looking at Campbell's SF but this was a generation rared on TV...and other than a few examples it was hard to find SF that did not aliens. But still stayed close to the human condition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52675229129135415562009-01-28T21:25:00.000-05:002009-01-28T21:25:00.000-05:00If "Star Wars" premiered before Traveller (a chron...If "Star Wars" premiered before Traveller (a chronology I don't recall), then it was by but a matter of months. I was for that reason not surprised to find NOTHING particularly suggestive of the movie in the game!Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78820086675334092062009-01-28T15:47:00.000-05:002009-01-28T15:47:00.000-05:00"No my friend, what you are lacking is a basi..."No my friend, what you are lacking is a basic understanding of differentiated angles of reception % reconfiguration. I don´t care if you apply this to D&D, but leave Traveller out of your Edwardian fingers."<BR/><BR/>It doesn't seem to me that you've engaged James' original points at all. Since it is pretty clear that you aren't "getting" one another, why not take James' advice and drop it?<BR/><BR/>Past that, your invocation of reception and reconfiguration, while seemingly post-modernist, are unclear as to what you intend for others to take away from your criticism. I mean, if you want to bring up Foucault, Baudrillard, Lyotard (and anyone else), please do so. We might have a more clear discussion that way.Victor Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05928494560036528653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9684897778445526362009-01-28T13:32:00.000-05:002009-01-28T13:32:00.000-05:00What I like about the "older guys" approach of Tra...What I like about the "older guys" approach of Traveller is that it delivers what you would expect out of a group of "adventurers" in a realistic setting: guys who are old enough to have some experience but still physically capable, maybe with enough money or pension income to have some freedom of movement, with military and technical skills.<BR/><BR/>That's what one would realistically expect a group of adventurers to be like. Farm boys and college students are generally too inexperienced, poor and/or tied down to manage adventuring, if by adventuring we're talking about smuggling, mercing and intrigue.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75315672861792403142009-01-28T12:51:00.000-05:002009-01-28T12:51:00.000-05:00I'm sorry, but I think the point of this post is g...I'm sorry, but I think the point of this post is getting lost in the wrangling over the finer points of its inspirations.<BR/><BR/>What makes Traveller so distinctive as a game is that the rules generate a very different type of character than games today. As a result these characters also challenge today's views on how RPGs define <I>heroes</I> and <I>adventure</I>.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973301663176412762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49240605123752974212009-01-28T12:19:00.000-05:002009-01-28T12:19:00.000-05:00I don´t care if you apply this to D&D, but lea...<I>I don´t care if you apply this to D&D, but leave Traveller out of your Edwardian fingers.</I><BR/><BR/>Then, please, move on and ignore me and this blog, since I obviously lack the deep understanding you possess. I don't want to upset your delicate sensibilities any more than I already have.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89280888163274319382009-01-28T11:52:00.000-05:002009-01-28T11:52:00.000-05:00You really don´t get it...It´s a COMPLEX relations...You really don´t get it...<BR/>It´s a COMPLEX relationship.<BR/><BR/>Start to think this way: Your view of what Star Wars is, isn´t neccessarily what the GDW guys thought & think.<BR/><BR/>As an aside, I really don´t like Star Wars. But it´s influence is there, just a sort of influence you seem not be able to fancy.<BR/><BR/>Another try:<BR/>Sky Raiders<BR/>Lensmen<BR/><BR/>Space Westerns/Operas have been a staple of Traveller since before it´s inception.<BR/><BR/>As for the "bad design" decisions, well you are contradicting yourself here. <BR/><BR/>Traveller is several things, and the area for old farty/wargamy/gentlemenly style of playing IS the third Imperium in it´s full detailed and modelled glory. There is no bad design decisions regarding that, if you REALLY want to play in a complex interstellar society. The only objectively bad decision was the choice of business partner for T4.<BR/><BR/>Now, if you keep talking Firefly & Freedom & Space Tramps: That´s fucking subcomplex/emo/movie Star Wars/Indiana Jones/Flandry-stuff.<BR/><BR/>That´s why I´m calling shennanigans to your whole take on Trav. You only scratch the surface, but pontificate about it.<BR/><BR/>And the notion that rules should support the action of movies on a director´s level is...let´s just say a thing of the nineties.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and it´s gone from mainstream too: just look at crunch-slo-mo-WotC Star Wars. <BR/><BR/>No my friend, what you are lacking is a basic understanding of differentiated angles of reception % reconfiguration. I don´t care if you apply this to D&D, but leave Traveller out of your Edwardian fingers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16219484570426899792009-01-28T09:33:00.000-05:002009-01-28T09:33:00.000-05:00AIUI, James is talking principally about the setti...<I>AIUI, James is talking principally about the setting implicit in the LBBs (which have very little in the way of explicit setting, but plenty of cultural assumptions built into their rules and writing: cf GURPS core rules).</I><BR/><BR/>Correct. The LBBs are primarily what I mean when I talk about <I>Traveller</I>, just as I mean OD&D when I talk about "<I>D&D</I>."James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24622622699760901992009-01-28T09:31:00.000-05:002009-01-28T09:31:00.000-05:00This did not stop many people, but I suspect the r...<I>This did not stop many people, but I suspect the results must have been a lot like trying to fit Tolkien's square peg into D&D's round hole.</I><BR/><BR/>Very much so. Some people see Tolkien everywhere in <I>D&D</I> and it's true that he's <I>become</I> a huge influence on the subsequent development of the game, but on OD&D? I simply don't see it beyond the superficial.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80922256359026757592009-01-28T09:30:00.000-05:002009-01-28T09:30:00.000-05:00But in regards of influences, it does work a whole...<I>But in regards of influences, it does work a whole lot differently for Trav, than it does for Gygaxian D&D. Or at least as James M. & other Sword & Sorcery puritans discuss it.</I><BR/><BR/>You seem to be laboring under the impression that, in the case of both OD&D and <I>Traveller</I>, that I'm denying <I>any</I> influences beyond the core; I'm not. What I am suggesting is that the original designs of both games were heavily influenced by a particular set of authors and that, to understand the underlying ethos of these games, it's a good idea to look to their literary origins. I can't see how that's controversial unless you don't think their origins matter.<BR/><BR/><I>Trav was, among other things, always envisioned and perceived as a toolbox to emulate the SciFi YOU want.</I><BR/><BR/>Correct, which is why I would argue that the inclusion and development of the Imperium in the supplements and adventures was a huge design mistake that eventually crippled <I>Traveller</I>, much in the same way that <I>D&D</I> has become crippled through the accumulation of details that militate against its toolbox origins.<BR/><BR/><I>And Star Wars was a canonical option, MANY players did this at the time. Just visit Loren K. Wisemans page...or actually check out what people did at the time, and what they still do.</I><BR/><BR/>Certainly <I>Star Wars</I> is an option, but it's an option that runs counter to most of the underlying assumptions of <I>Traveller</I>, which has a lot more in common with literary SF of the 50s and 60s than it does with Lucas's vision, which is much more fantastical in nature.<BR/><BR/>I know that Loren says he always associates <I>Star Wars</I> with <I>Traveller</I> in his mind, but that's because the movie was released just two months before the game was released. There's a temporal connection between the two, but how much of the design of the LBBs shows any <I>Star Wars</I> influence? How many of <I>Traveller</I>'s underlying assumptions jibes with those of <I>Star Wars</I>?<BR/><BR/><I>The complexity of Traveller is lost to our host, I fear.</I><BR/><BR/>Simply because you imagine <I>Traveller</I> as being more like <I>Star Wars</I> than I do is not cause to argue I don't see the connections they have. But those connections are, in my opinion, almost exactly like those between Tolkien and OD&D -- superficial and intended to capitalize on a fad rather than anything deeper. Given that the bulk of <I>Traveller</I>'s design occurred <I>before Star Wars was released</I>, I simply don't see how it's possible that the movie could have had such a profound impact on the LBBs as you seem to imply.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44521695610838545402009-01-28T09:17:00.000-05:002009-01-28T09:17:00.000-05:00Praytell, which "bad" design decisions were made?N...<I>Praytell, which "bad" design decisions were made?</I><BR/><BR/>Nearly every decision made regarding the presentation of the Imperium has been a mistake or has contributed to subsequent mistakes. Instead of using it as one example among many of how to take the underlying assumptions of <I>Traveller</I> and create a setting, it very quickly became not merely the only example but a normative one. <BR/><BR/>If you look at how references to the Imperium change from the early books, where it's just a throw-away example, to later ones, where <I>Traveller</I> becomes a game about the Imperium rather than a broader "science fiction adventure in the far future," there's no denying it was a mistake, so much so that GDW had to destroy the Imperium not once but twice in a vain effort to save the game line.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35524785646886374992009-01-28T09:11:00.000-05:002009-01-28T09:11:00.000-05:00dammit, should read: use of, or appropriation ofdammit, should read: <I>use of, or appropriation of</I>richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8368888240848509442009-01-28T09:10:00.000-05:002009-01-28T09:10:00.000-05:00The complexity of Traveller is lost to our host, I...<I>The complexity of Traveller is lost to our host, I fear.</I><BR/>I really don't think so. AIUI, James is talking principally about the setting implicit in the LBBs (which have very little in the way of explicit setting, but plenty of cultural assumptions built into their rules and writing: cf GURPS core rules). You seem to be talking about the use of appropriation of Traveller in players' campaigns, which is varied and, I'd argue, hard to characterize.<BR/><BR/><I>LUCAS appears to me to have ripped off the ideas/ feel of Edgar Rice Burroughs</I><BR/>Isn't that called "hommage," or "writing in a genre"? He also rips off any SF that involves spaceships and hyperspace, cowboy and pirate movies, GM's 1964 World's Fair exhibit...richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74795572886787540442009-01-28T08:55:00.000-05:002009-01-28T08:55:00.000-05:00Years ago my friend used to say that if he could r...Years ago my friend used to say that if he could re-edit Star Wars he'd make it about Han Solo and the Empire, because those were the most interesting bits. I lost contact with him, so I don't know if he got into 'Firefly'.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44881544933187013262009-01-28T08:38:00.000-05:002009-01-28T08:38:00.000-05:00LUCAS appears to me to have ripped off the ideas/ ...LUCAS appears to me to have ripped off the ideas/ feel (rescue the princess) of Edgar Rice Burroughs - turn to the Glossary of Thuvia Maid of Mars (c) 1916 and you will the words . . . <BR/>jed, banth, sithclovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647936958773934755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34723809019535949232009-01-28T06:37:00.000-05:002009-01-28T06:37:00.000-05:00Settembrini -- oh, sure! The three books on their ...Settembrini -- oh, sure! The three books on their own do imply a setting similar to the Gaean Reach, though; or, viewed through another lens, something similar to Asimov's Foundation trilogy. Star Wars needs a few additional steps away from the core game, and in many ways the system and the tone of the game work against SW-style heroics (Han Solo might have been a smuggler, but he didn't do a whole lot of trading on screen). This did not stop many people, but I suspect the results must have been a lot like trying to fit Tolkien's square peg into D&D's round hole.<BR/><BR/>I can't comment on further similarities between the developed Third Imperium and the Gaian Reach, since I can only rely on the early materials and GURPS: Traveller. Based on the latter, I am seeing a lower level of similarity than in the LBBs, but then like a lot of things, Traveller built up its own canon and started to rely less on external sources as time went by. That's a somewhat dubios process, but it is how game publishing operates...Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44389344174181593252009-01-28T05:09:00.000-05:002009-01-28T05:09:00.000-05:00Melan: In T5 it´s explicitly stated as an influenc...Melan: In T5 it´s explicitly stated as an influence.<BR/><BR/>But in regards of influences, it does work a whole lot differently for Trav, than it does for Gygaxian D&D. Or at least as James M. & other Sword & Sorcery puritans discuss it.<BR/><BR/>Trav was, among other things, always envisioned and perceived as a toolbox to emulate the SciFi YOU want. And Star Wars was a canonical option, MANY players did this at the time. Just visit Loren K. Wisemans page...or actually check out what people did at the time, and what they still do.<BR/><BR/>The complexity of Traveller is lost to our host, I fear.<BR/><BR/>Coming back to the Demon Princes, that´s more concerned not with Trav as a generic game, but rather parts of the Third Imperium setting, the Spinward Marches especially.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19253793742234476462009-01-28T04:02:00.000-05:002009-01-28T04:02:00.000-05:00I don't know how it figured into Marc Miller's min...I don't know how it figured into Marc Miller's mind, but in many ways, Vance's Gaean Reach (especially as depicted in <B>The Demon Princes</B>) is the ideal blueprint for a Traveller campaign:<BR/>- completely humanocentric (there were no alien races in the three LBBs, and very little psionics)<BR/>- 20th century technology meets a few space-age devices -- Traveller curiously neglects the gadgets so beloved by almost all SF RPGs<BR/>- the assumed generic civilisation is neither utopian nor anti-utopian; if anything, it is complacent and a bit old-fashioned in a '1930s-1940s America' way<BR/>- there is also the Beyond, lawless space where anything goes, although it is still not quite as violent as most contemporary SF<BR/><BR/>I could also recommend <B>Ports of Call</B> and <B>Lurulu</B>, which are almost exactly Traveller - regular folks in a spaceship doing complex triangular trade, flitting among more or less exotic worlds and meeting people. Curiously, the books have no overarching plot at all, unless you count the journey itself as one... an impressive similarity when you consider that Vance hasn't been reading science fiction since around the 50s.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30065077105195238112009-01-28T02:25:00.000-05:002009-01-28T02:25:00.000-05:00Oh definitely I remember being 16 and seeing this ...Oh definitely I remember being 16 and seeing this picture in <I>The Traveller Book</I>. I thought it was cool, but I also knew I couldn't quite empathize with middle-age ex-military dudes. I took it to school to show some friends, who seemed to be of the mind that Battletech was the last word in sci-fi gaming.<BR/><BR/>A couple decades later, maybe me and my friends are starting to look like Jamison, but identifying with ex-military types is still a bit of a stretch. We're a bunch of civvie creampuffs, I think our Traveller adventurers might resemble "Wild Hogs", not "Firefly".K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29786768390512538072009-01-28T00:49:00.000-05:002009-01-28T00:49:00.000-05:00Praytell, which "bad" design decisions were made?Praytell, which "bad" design decisions were made?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com