tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2681634834490333476..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Gygaxian UnnaturalismJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79654606960402214952009-03-04T02:58:00.000-05:002009-03-04T02:58:00.000-05:00@Justin: that is the clearest way of putting it I ...@Justin: that is the clearest way of putting it I think. Maybe it's the use of the term realism/realist, and fantasy that causes so much confusion. Just as the word level has different meanings, so does realism, naturalism, and fantasy.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19411557618119571352009-03-03T22:11:00.000-05:002009-03-03T22:11:00.000-05:00An excellent summary, Justin.An excellent summary, Justin.Michael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10974465695358229652009-03-03T17:48:00.000-05:002009-03-03T17:48:00.000-05:00I think the important tenet of Gygaxian Naturalism...I think the important tenet of Gygaxian Naturalism is not any sense of "realism". It is rather based on the ideas that:<BR/><BR/>(1) The game world continues to exist even if the PCs turn and look the other way.<BR/><BR/>(2) The game world should behave in a coherent fashion so that the PCs can meaningfully interact with it.<BR/><BR/>(3) A consistent and coherent game world also makes it easier to deal with PCs who go haring off in an unexpected direction.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28817136291175164132009-03-03T16:42:00.000-05:002009-03-03T16:42:00.000-05:00I can’t turn up the quote, but a science fiction w...I can’t turn up the quote, but a science fiction writer once said something about allowing himself one indulgence per story. Only one thing that couldn’t be explained by current scientific knowledge.<BR/><BR/>I’ve noticed a similar thing among weird fantasy writers. There’s a tendency to have a single supernatural element in a story, which helps to highlight that element.<BR/><BR/>For role-playing games, having the game world as similar to the real-world makes the game run smoother so that you can get to the interesting parts—be it action, the supernatural, character development, or whatever—faster and easier and with fewer misunderstandings.<BR/><BR/>None of which is meant to disparage other approaches.<BR/><BR/>You’re right, James. It seems Gary felt it natural to give his game worlds a foundation in his understanding of the real world. (I seems to me that that wasn’t even all that intentional.) Despite that, it is clear that—when the time came—he’d let loose with the fantastic or even silly.<BR/><BR/>Now I understand why I was never quite comfortable with the “Gygaxian naturalism” term. Until now.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72854345148355347612009-03-03T15:28:00.000-05:002009-03-03T15:28:00.000-05:00the underlying assumptions of D&D -- the thing...<I>the underlying assumptions of D&D -- the things it doesn't say -- are those of the real, natural world. Gygax didn't bother to talk about such things</I><BR/>well, not quite, right? The assumptions are Gary's assumptions about the natural world, which might be quite different from the assumptions readers might have.<BR/>/pedantry.<BR/><BR/><I>ignoring that the big human cities need farmland surrounding them, not crappy moorland</I><BR/>Crappy moorland can be defensible, or provide reasonable grazing (see Adam Smith for a discussion of whether grazing or arable land is more likely to be close to the city's markets), and plenty of cities were built in unpromising surroundings, even before the modern era and fast communications. I'm curious, though: the onyl city I can think of is Minas Tirith, and it surroundings looked more or less like Yorkshire to me: are you thinking of some other city?<BR/>/pedantry - for reals, this time.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29698084754314543362009-03-03T14:29:00.000-05:002009-03-03T14:29:00.000-05:00S'mon is correct in that Gygax kept changing and e...S'mon is correct in that Gygax kept changing and expanding over time. You'll find his later work is much more "realistic" than earlier works. <BR/><BR/>For instance, post TSR, his two other campaign settings assumed that all creatures like "demi-humans" and other races came from alternate dimensions, "Faery" realms. You'll find he also did not create new pantheons, focusing on the existing Earth ones.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17361619733064046232009-03-03T13:49:00.000-05:002009-03-03T13:49:00.000-05:00Gygaxian Naturalism is a definite phenomenon.1e AD...Gygaxian Naturalism is a definite phenomenon.<BR/><BR/>1e AD&D shows it much more clearly than OD&D. OD&D has mythic Underworlds where reality breaks down, AD&D has the Abbot's ruined monastery cellars with calcified bones in the limestone-rich stream.<BR/><BR/>I think it's important to recognise this, because it informs setting creation and enables the GM to decide which, if either, approach he will take, or whether to adopt a different approach. <BR/><BR/>For example, I'm running a Saltmarsh Trilogy based Greyhawk online campaign with C&C, a perfect candidate for a highly GN approach. I'm also running a Wilderlands online Labyrinth Lord game, which setting IMO shows its gonzo OD&D roots. And I'm running a tabletop 3e game based on CS Lewis, Tolkien, and the implied setting of the pre-Karameikos B-series modules, which really does not feel at all Gygaxian in tone to me.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40363528463212479972009-03-03T13:20:00.000-05:002009-03-03T13:20:00.000-05:00It's never been a split between naturalism and the...It's never been a split between naturalism and the fantastic, at least not for me.<BR/><BR/>However, I've always stopped myself before plopping down one of my favorite monsters and asking about why it's there, what it's doing, what effects it would have on everything else around it before I let it stay around. It's not a matter of disliking the truly fantastic, but of trying to make the fantastic fit in with the naturalistic (and vice versa really).<BR/><BR/>For instance, dragons are great fun, but after a particular Kenzer module a while ago, I will never add another dragon lair to a campaign without making sure there's an extra space in there for . . . ahem . . . essentials.Hamlethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135081554790749914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33777769330588184642009-03-03T13:07:00.001-05:002009-03-03T13:07:00.001-05:00When it comes to dungeon designing I think I am a ...When it comes to dungeon designing I think I am a bit guilty of worrying too much about naturalism or a rationale for every inhabitant. When I think of playing, I usually only cringe at the most ridiculous cases of natural dissidence. This is something I am going to work on lightening up on. Things should follow, but it is fantasy. Nice post.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22067221751712741072009-03-03T13:07:00.000-05:002009-03-03T13:07:00.000-05:00I don't really see a hard split between Gygaxi...I don't really see a hard split between Gygaxian naturalism and unnaturalism. In the original AD&D DM's Guide (the only decent one to ever come out, IMHO), he even went so far as to give possible explanations for how so many large predators were able to exist without wiping out the herbavores. (A slightly different hue of sun causing rapid growth of certain plants which enable a prolific growth of the herbavore population, IIRC.) He was careful to emphasize the need for having some semblance of a working ecology.<BR/><BR/>For the "purely" fantastic, the strong hints in the material are that we are to accept them as the realms of Faerie and archetypical underworlds, which mythology has always provided examples of. Dungeonland makes perfect sense in a world where chaotic and powerful beings like Puck (or Xagyg) exist.<BR/><BR/>Shalom.Michael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86028401725297177162009-03-03T12:12:00.000-05:002009-03-03T12:12:00.000-05:00It's not that strange when you think about it.I wo...It's not that strange when you think about it.<BR/><BR/>I would call Gary a "realistic Fantasy" writer, because while he accepted there were efforts where you just have to say "it's magic", you also tried to come up with as plausible an explanation as possible for the world--or at least the core setting (material world and campaign setting).<BR/><BR/>Gary studied a lot of history, and when creating the campaign worlds, he kept in mind his knowledge of history and warfare and other things he learned. Too many people today don't know enough about that--which is why people think Castles are just a summer home for a king instead of important fortresses. You have people like Peter Jackson creating an epic film and ignoring that the big human cities need farmland surrounding them, not crappy moorland.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80742135279456267172009-03-03T12:04:00.000-05:002009-03-03T12:04:00.000-05:00Just so, James. My own view of the game has allway...Just so, James. My own view of the game has allways been "reality plus". The natural world as we know it with elements of the fantastic blended in. That may be a more AD&D attitutde than an Original D&D one though. My Holmes games are more darkly fantastic, and my AD&D Greyhawk more victorian expeditionary adventure feeling.E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.com