tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3272209281691587133..comments2024-03-29T07:58:31.156-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Brandification in ActionJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39718868981585872992011-06-11T20:50:46.872-04:002011-06-11T20:50:46.872-04:00I don't know why people are having trouble com...I don't know why people are having trouble comprehending the rationale for this. <br /><br />Who sold D&D? <br />Hobby and model shops. <br />Who sold woodburning kits? <br />Hobby and model shops.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71537268833326047222011-06-09T07:42:09.145-04:002011-06-09T07:42:09.145-04:00Yeah, OK, two years late, followed from the link i...Yeah, OK, two years late, followed from the link in today's post solely to date myself by saying: <br /><br />I owned the D&D woodburning kit. <br /><br />I can only assume it was bought for me on the strength of the Dungeons & Dragons name - that is, I have no memory of an (ahem) burning desire to own that particular item or start a new woodworking hobby. <br /><br />My love for RPGs survived and continues to this day, but as a gateway into the hobby of woodburning, I'm afraid the box failed.drnuncheonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09550380906129633611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43458988804288994652009-11-16T11:39:42.943-05:002009-11-16T11:39:42.943-05:00I thought Wally’s post in this thread was complete...I thought Wally’s post in this thread was completely appropriate and legitimate. James, I’m saddened and disappointed that you would consider silencing people with dissenting views. Maybe I haven’t read enough of your blog (probably no more than a hundred posts and all their comments), but I’ve never seen Wally get so obnoxious that I thought it was a pure troll or flame, and that there wasn’t something useful and valid in it. Maybe I’m just not following closely enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25236410316987005892009-11-09T23:25:51.321-05:002009-11-09T23:25:51.321-05:00As long as you've got the Jaws license I'm...As long as you've got the Jaws license I'm all there!<br /><br />:DHyrum Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07626668592404286594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14966367790749818632009-11-09T23:19:44.041-05:002009-11-09T23:19:44.041-05:00You guy's will all feel silly when my injectio...You guy's will all feel silly when my injection moulded landshark handle potato peelers fly off the shelves!<br />Just you wait.E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78428733317896537892009-11-09T16:00:04.027-05:002009-11-09T16:00:04.027-05:00> It's also the primary reason why I think ...> It's also the primary reason why I think it's a really bad feature that it's owned and controlled by a single company.<br /><br />Joint ownership of IPR ain't exactly "common practice".<br /><br />If TSR had succeeded in merging with Games Workshop - who know pretty well how to wield their brand and torch the "opposition" - we might be lucky to have /any/ RPG being produced by the combined company nowadays.<br /><br />Things /could/ be worse, but kinda relying on people to follow words with actions and make 'em better (p.o.v.), too...<br /><br />> (a) I'm skeptical that 5-card stud has had any "radical changes", in say, the last 100 years.<br /><br />Secondary point being that there were presumably always a number of "traditionalists" who were happier with the original format(s).<br /><br />It's not as though the world is about to run out of 0e/1e (A)D&D books so, unlike superseded card/ball/etc. games where the materials can easily be used for the "new" games, it should actually be /more/ difficult to write pre-3e/4e(*jk*) into "history" if people actually /care/ enough.irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7656143659813617762009-11-09T10:03:20.195-05:002009-11-09T10:03:20.195-05:00I wish you'd stop posting here.
You're not...<i>I wish you'd stop posting here.</i><br /><br>You're not the only one who wishes that, but, alas, Blogger doesn't give me the option of blocking posters.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66027795057920417382009-11-09T00:59:11.966-05:002009-11-09T00:59:11.966-05:00"All of those have had many radical changes, ..."All of those have had many radical changes, variants, etc., (seven-card stud is not 'compatible' with five-card draw; is that a problem?)"<br /><br />(a) I'm skeptical that 5-card stud has had any "radical changes", in say, the last 100 years. (b) The original game and all of its variants are <i>still in print</i>. <br /><br />This latter point is the primary distinction between poker (et. al.) and D&D. It's also the primary reason why I think it's a really bad feature that it's owned and controlled by a single company.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66570877660864835672009-11-08T17:12:45.927-05:002009-11-08T17:12:45.927-05:00> What if baseball, chess, or poker radically r...> What if baseball, chess, or poker radically revised their rules every 8 years or so in an incompatible way? Do you think it would increase or decrease the number of people following it?<br /><br />Things change a bit quicker nowadays?<br />All of those have had many radical changes, variants, etc., (seven-card stud is not "compatible" with five-card draw; is that a problem?) and none of those relatively adaptable games (compared with Bezique, for example) could hardly be called dead pastimes by any stretch of the imagination, nor is there any negative pressure exerted for the millions of players to /not/ play "as originally written" or any other variant, formal or casual.irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49452336893941779702009-11-08T16:19:01.418-05:002009-11-08T16:19:01.418-05:00@Wally
You crack me up. I think there's some ...@Wally<br /><br />You crack me up. I think there's some truth in your saying that James has a point of view that blinds him a little bit. And, really, he writes a like an academic which I find a mannered sometimes. Other times I think he says things in his way that come out perfectly for what he's trying to say. <br /><br />But you seem to be taking his style of writing -- academic to sound authoritative -- and push it right to its limits. Your way of writing is so orotund it's practically obfuscation! You imitate him slavishly in an attempt to outdo him with his own manner. <br /><br />But here's the difference, Wally. James cares very, very deeply about this stuff. And that resonates with a lot of us who remember it. You don't care at all. You are like a bully who sees what other people care about. You aim to destroy and invalidate that feeling at every opportunity. <br /><br />Fuck off, Wally. I wish you'd stop posting here. <br /><br />Chris Cunnington<br />Torontobrasspenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00740202895575678193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60197319462425378272009-11-08T13:39:59.892-05:002009-11-08T13:39:59.892-05:00The data came from WotC and was said to cover all ...<i>The data came from WotC and was said to cover all editions of the game.</i><br /><br>Yes, I remember that survey, but I'll admit to always being somewhat skeptical of its results, particularly the notion that more people were playing <i>D&D</i> in 2000 than were in, say, 1985. That just didn't ring true to me and it called into question the entire survey for me.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46656881071765639712009-11-08T12:12:16.776-05:002009-11-08T12:12:16.776-05:00I don't know if it's failed. According to ...I don't know if it's failed. According to the data, there were more D&D players in the early 2000's than at any other time in the history of the game. (Shortly after the release of 3rd Edition)<br /><br />The data came from WotC and was said to cover all editions of the game.Hyrum Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07626668592404286594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12267225193901879762009-11-08T01:35:50.333-05:002009-11-08T01:35:50.333-05:00"Just checking, then; on principle you'd ..."Just checking, then; on principle you'd rather have a hard core of 500 hardcore old-school fanatics and a dead game rather than 5,000,000 active new-school fans from whom the 'curious' can be encouraged to get 'back to their roots' /plus/ the aforementioned 500?"<br /><br />This is a false dichotomy. Yes, pretty much everyone involved would like to grow the hobby. But radically changing the art in an attempt to do that has, according to the available data, been shown to fail time and time again.<br /><br />What if baseball, chess, or poker radically revised their rules every 8 years or so in an incompatible way? Do you think it would increase or decrease the number of people following it?Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61778063868322652492009-11-07T23:49:31.460-05:002009-11-07T23:49:31.460-05:00Just checking, then; on principle you'd rather...<i>Just checking, then; on principle you'd rather have a hard core of 500 hardcore old-school fanatics and a dead game rather than 5,000,000 active new-school fans from whom the 'curious' can be encouraged to get 'back to their roots' /plus/ the aforementioned 500?</i><br /><br>I don't believe I've ever said anything even close to that. I have said that I think it'd be better for the long-term viability of the game if it didn't change editions as radically as it has over the years. <br /><br /><i>It's not as though WotC is going to burn all the old books or anything like that...</i><br /><br>Again, I never said they would -- although their removal of the PDFs of the older material does make it much harder for interested newcomers to see the roots of the game for themselves. Buying OD&D through the second hand market is prohibitively expensive nowadays.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77260039147894513102009-11-07T18:43:50.278-05:002009-11-07T18:43:50.278-05:00> I would hate to see the game go the way of so...> I would hate to see the game go the way of so many of Disney's properties -- hugely successful but utterly soulless and disconnected from their origins.<br /><br />One could say we're a bit late there? ;) [p.o.v. is always relative]<br /><br />Just checking, then; on principle you'd rather have a hard core of 500 hardcore old-school fanatics and a dead game rather than 5,000,000 active new-school fans from whom the 'curious' can be encouraged to get 'back to their roots' /plus/ the aforementioned 500?<br />It's not as though WotC is going to burn all the old books or anything like that... (Heck, even over here GW made a fuss above their 30 year heritage with GW even if that doesn't mean a damn to their current business plan any more and WotC is nothing like as 'bad' as that).irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65005973237826444912009-11-07T18:36:51.815-05:002009-11-07T18:36:51.815-05:00For those who think what James calls "Brandif...For those who think what James calls "Brandification" is bad, people should read some of the interviews Charles Schulz did for Gary Groth. Charles Schulz is a man who I consider to have a great personal integrity, yet he explains very clearly that he thought merchandising was a good thing, and that as long as it didn't compromise the strip, he was okay with it. He made a very good point about how it can help with other things.<br /><br />I don't see anything about the woodburning kit that would have affected the core product in a negative manner.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10297218576518800972009-11-07T11:06:46.299-05:002009-11-07T11:06:46.299-05:00Who said Disney was a failed example? The closest ...Who said Disney was a failed example? The closest we get is that Disney product is souless. :)<br /><br />As for TSR's failure, it's less bad branding and more bad upper management. Loraine was a disaster.Hyrum Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07626668592404286594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55112815591778422722009-11-07T10:52:18.392-05:002009-11-07T10:52:18.392-05:00Now, Disney was brought up up above as a negative ...<i>Now, Disney was brought up up above as a negative example of brand management. This is patently absurd.</i><br /><br>Speaking only for myself, it's not that I think Disney does what it does badly. It's that I don't think emulating Disney is what I want from the company that produces RPGs. Disney is unquestionably successful at profiting from its intellectual properties, but, many times, it does so in ways I find unpalatable and that weakens my affection for those properties. I don't want to see <i>D&D</i> follow that same path.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72047506226230947282009-11-07T10:38:16.617-05:002009-11-07T10:38:16.617-05:00To all of those saying "why shouldn't TSR...To all of those saying "why shouldn't TSR take the free money" you obviously don't know anything about brand management. TSR is an excellent example of *failed* marketing. Here was a game that was so popular at the time that it was featured in one of the most popular movies off all time (ET), and yet a mere 10 - 15 years later the company essentially collapsed. More importantly, the mindshare of the brand also collapsed. This is bad management pure and simple.<br /><br />Now, Disney was brought up up above as a negative example of brand management. This is patently absurd. Disney took success in fantasy animation, and grew that beach head into a multi-billion dollar company that essentially makes its money off of fantasy.<br /><br />Could TSR have become another Disney? Of course not. Could it have achieved a solid, mainstream mind share? Absolutely. The DnD / TSR brand was horribly managed. Full stop.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551480034601737297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55184811358582578202009-11-07T05:28:16.329-05:002009-11-07T05:28:16.329-05:00"Random merchandising of cartoon characters i..."Random merchandising of cartoon characters is very low on the priority list of socially-valuable occupations."<br /><br />Frankly, so is publishing roleplaying games. We're a hobby based on ridiculous luxury.<br /><br />I think the woodburning kit's dumb, too. Hell, a former D&D <i>brand</i> manager has openly criticized TSR's broad use of the trademarks. So that's not controversial.<br /><br />Let's not pretend, though, that we're enormous bastions of integrity and taste just because we never owned one.Rose Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201318275929153053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67192062203934258372009-11-07T01:47:13.839-05:002009-11-07T01:47:13.839-05:00"What would it say about his character if the..."What would it say about his character if the decision to fold up his tent cost 300 people their jobs? ... a business is bread and butter for real families."<br /><br />That's a ridiculous hypothetical. Enormously more likely: What if his decision to avoid merchandising saved 30 million families from spending money on unnecessary trinkets like stickers, mugs, and T-shirts? What if they could buy actual healthier bread and butter because of it? What if it forced some other up-and-coming cartoonist to create some new, exciting artwork instead? What if it saved Watterson himself from losing time and energy and soul to management duties, and never making real artwork again? (Having lots of NYC artists as friends, this is particularly keen to me.)<br /><br />Not all businesses are equal, except in the most unnecessary abstract sense. Random merchandising of cartoon characters is very low on the priority list of socially-valuable occupations.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79288885531475376102009-11-06T23:31:04.202-05:002009-11-06T23:31:04.202-05:00A counterpoint, which I'll soon elaborate on i...A counterpoint, which I'll soon elaborate on in my own blog: I encountered the D&D cartoon many years before any kind of roleplaying game, and I still think it informs my gaming a lot to this day.<br /><br />What finally got me into the RPG was...a cheesy comic book ad.<br /><br />Sure, it's no Colorforms, but it was pretty obviously brand-growing in the same vein as the action figures.<br /><br />Yet, at least in my case, it *worked*.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17931476373540179962009-11-06T22:15:29.628-05:002009-11-06T22:15:29.628-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.rainswepthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165059567790555748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38931482225593450552009-11-06T21:22:12.666-05:002009-11-06T21:22:12.666-05:00I don't really see the bad here.
Plenty of t...I don't really see the bad here. <br /><br />Plenty of things are merchandised and it isn't seen as evil.<br /><br />Assuming TSR got paid for these, seems like a good. <br /><br />I mean, it's not like there aren't star trek lunchboxes, bookmarks, underwear, etc etc. <br /><br />Not everything done with the D&D brand must solely be about growing the game. Sometimes cashing a check is ok too.<br /><br />At least, that's the impression I have. I never see any of them ;)Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8110421384661816572009-11-06T21:11:46.260-05:002009-11-06T21:11:46.260-05:00(And they did make a couple of D&D movies....)...<i>(And they did make a couple of D&D movies....)</i><br /><br>Oh, I know, but neither was a success and I don't think anyone strongly associates them with the game (in the way that, unfortunately, people associate the Schwarzenegger film with Conan).James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com