tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3285292330784512472..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Random Roll: DMG, p. 74James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39082156528070143072021-06-07T09:26:15.536-04:002021-06-07T09:26:15.536-04:00The difference is that what Gygax "borrowed&q...The difference is that what Gygax "borrowed" from Greek mythology and medieval bestiaries had already fallen into public domain. Tolkien has not.<br /><br />But why would such a big fan of pulp fantasy include hobbits that are good at burgling and throwing rocks, dwarves, elves, wood elves, half-elves, half-orcs, good wizards, rangers, wargs, glowing magic swords, cloaks of elvenkind, cursed rings, orcs that fight amongst themselves unless led by a powerful leader, goblins, wights, wraiths, intelligent giant eagles, ents, balrogs, and fire-breathing red dragons?<br /><br />I don't remember Howard and Leiber writing about those!<br /><br />When you "borrow" something without permission or payment, what is that called?<br />Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30147983565910602862021-06-06T16:23:13.045-04:002021-06-06T16:23:13.045-04:00I don't think so - Gary was a fan of really pu...I don't think so - Gary was a fan of really pulpy fantasy and the slow and careful worldbuilding and limited action of Tolkien really wasn't to his taste. He has a lot of superficial borrowings but in effect they are no different than his borrowings from Greek Mythology, medieval beastiaries, and B movies. ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05866236293322652977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19467444755115462342021-06-05T11:41:59.121-04:002021-06-05T11:41:59.121-04:00I think Gygax disliked Tolkien the way many copyca...I think Gygax disliked Tolkien the way many copycats desperately try to distance themselves from their source material.<br /><br />Gygax wrote a game about hobbits, dwarves, elves, half-elves, half-orcs, wizards, burglars, magic swords, cloaks of elvenkind, cursed rings, orcs, goblins, wights, wraiths, secret doors, giant eagles, giant spiders, ents, balrogs, treasure maps, dragons, treasure hoards, and the deep, dark places of the world, and he didn't pay Tolkien a royalty. <br /><br />Of course he claimed he didn't like Tolkien!Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85213304257806625672021-06-03T10:52:10.890-04:002021-06-03T10:52:10.890-04:00Something fairly irrelevant, but interesting, that...Something fairly irrelevant, but interesting, that I just noticed: Gygax uses the plural "dwarves" here. This is a non-standard plural (it should be "dwarfs") that was introduced by Tolkien in <i>The Hobbit</i>. Another example of how even people who don't like Tolkien can't get away from his influence.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45842421291858089532021-06-01T16:01:58.999-04:002021-06-01T16:01:58.999-04:00After messing around in OD&D for better part o...After messing around in OD&D for better part of a decade, I actually can to the opposite conclusion. Now AD&D seems a more sensible home.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45738464598136726192021-05-31T14:08:23.459-04:002021-05-31T14:08:23.459-04:00Thanks. I had been too lazy to look closely at th...Thanks. I had been too lazy to look closely at that table the first time, Since it was clearly designed this way, why didn’t GG state it a lot more simply, like THAC0?<br /><br />To hit:<br /><br />d20 >= C - L - AC - other modifiers,<br /><br />where C = 21 if L + AC > 0; C = 16 if L + AC < -3, and otherwise C = 20 + L + AC.<br /><br /><br /><br />Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38315971695613262682021-05-29T10:22:16.892-04:002021-05-29T10:22:16.892-04:00As much as I like the aesthetics of attacks and sa...As much as I like the aesthetics of attacks and saves only changing every three or four experience levels, in practice players really want to see their stats grow as they level up. So I went to the trouble of producing <a href="https://1drv.ms/b/s!AhaNHhtrqdOVrWoXCojCH6Be0aAc?e=PNuenQ>granular tables</a> for all the attack rolls and saving throws in both D&D and AD&D. Players seem to prefer the more frequent 1-point bumps to the occasional but more significant 2-point bumps constituting the standard tables.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11011423760852568812021-05-29T00:56:46.723-04:002021-05-29T00:56:46.723-04:00It's intended that you just follow the pattern...It's intended that you just follow the pattern. Since the 20s are shifted up two rows each column, you can just shift them up one row instead on the "in-between" columns. For example, the first 20 occurs at AC0 at level 1 and the last one at AC-5. Therefore, the first 20 would occur at AC-1 at level 2, with the last at AC-6. Then, at level 3, the table shows the first 20 occurring at AC-2 and the last at AC-7, so at level 4 it would shift up to AC-3 and AC-8. And so on.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53295261223184882802021-05-28T17:54:05.522-04:002021-05-28T17:54:05.522-04:00No, that's if one uses the optional rule from ...No, that's if one uses the optional rule from pg. 82. If one doesn't, any attack that generates a result of 20, either with a natural 20 or one that gets a 20 result due to bonuses, can hit that section of 20s.DominusCaveaVulpeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16317537974568062563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8693967931234061752021-05-28T17:49:44.219-04:002021-05-28T17:49:44.219-04:00With enough bonuses.With enough bonuses.DominusCaveaVulpeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16317537974568062563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7988961130719689922021-05-28T16:47:32.935-04:002021-05-28T16:47:32.935-04:00RE: Bards
Yep, they're capped at their highes...RE: Bards<br /><br />Yep, they're capped at their highest level of fighter, similar to a multi-classed character. However, 7th level fighter is still pretty good, especially when one has magic weapons. I don't recall my old bard character missing all that much (or at all).<br /><br />RE: +1/level for fighters<br /><br />As kids, we completely missed this optional rule or I'm sure we would have used it. I use it now in my AD&D campaign; in fact, we extrapolate the rule for ALL classes (giving them a +1 bump halfway through the level progression). Works well.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38329863732371483362021-05-28T15:52:54.105-04:002021-05-28T15:52:54.105-04:00The note on page 82 is an example of a rule that h...The note on page 82 is an example of a rule that helps the player but isn't presented as a player-helper.<br /><br />Players are far more likely to have bonuses coming in from all over - ability scores, magic weapons, spells like prayer, plus all the situational modifiers AD&D envisioned for things like higher ground, etc. So if they get a natural 20 then they're likely to hit a much better AC than the monster. (Monsters usually hit better ACs on dice rolls less than 20 to compensate). <br /><br />But players are also more likely to get into the rarefied air of super-low ACs than monsters, and so are more likely to break "the sound barrier" as it were, where only a nat 20 plus the bonuses a monster is unlikely to have will attrite the players' hit points (and indirectly spells, potions, and other resources).<br /><br />So a more heroic style of play comes into effect in a very uneven progression - the characters reach a zone where they're just hard to hit. This is balanced out by item saving throws routinely dropping players back below the "sound barrier" due to destruction of the magic launching them there, and also that overbearing bypasses this system should the players foolishly mock the gods' benevolence by wading with disdain into hordes of monsters having no one to protect their flanks and backs.EOTBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17514955150414369244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21500182298616027742021-05-28T15:49:31.436-04:002021-05-28T15:49:31.436-04:00Am I reading this correctly? Those repeated 20s d...Am I reading this correctly? Those repeated 20s don’t make much sense if you give a +1 to even-leveled fighters, because then the roll-to-hit bounces back and forth between 19 and 20 as they advance in levels.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29267616840493725702021-05-28T14:58:42.396-04:002021-05-28T14:58:42.396-04:00I went into a deep dive on to-hit mechanics a whil...I went into a deep dive on to-hit mechanics a while back. I refer to the repeating 20s that appear in several editions as the "wart" that thac0 removed.<br /><br />The thing most modern readers miss is that as-written, this is not a natural 20 target; it means that a +1 to-hit renders a wide range of ACs hittable with a natural 19. Bigger bonuses have even weirder effects, and in Basic the wart recurs at 30.<br /><br />https://gdorn.circuitlocution.com/rpgblog/history_of_thac0.htmlgdornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18232252102114893012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33763987257493276442021-05-28T13:17:21.305-04:002021-05-28T13:17:21.305-04:00Another perfect example of why to just stick with ...Another perfect example of why to just stick with OD&D, and enjoy AD&D for Gary's gaming and DM advice. OD&D is a mess because of what it lacks, AD&D is a mess because of everything jammed into it.<br /><br />Everyone in my group pretty much abandoned AD&D as a system earl on, kept up with OD&D and just stole the good bits from AD&D- HD increases, spells, items, Modules, etc. JEFFBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08862106711059104379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30913394794578423132021-05-28T13:12:00.490-04:002021-05-28T13:12:00.490-04:00Dwarves, elves, and gnomes are much longer lived t...Dwarves, elves, and gnomes are much longer lived than humans or halflings (DMG p. 13), and are always endangered by goblins, orcs, and so forth much more so than humans and halflings, so any encountered outside the home are going to have at least 1 level of experience worth of fighting skill.James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80745407935497371172021-05-28T12:37:36.636-04:002021-05-28T12:37:36.636-04:00I wonder why halflings, alone among demihumans, ca...I wonder why halflings, alone among demihumans, can be 0-level. I suppose it reflects their generally peaceful natures, but then how warlike are gnomes? Also, I note that on page 73, the list ofattack matrices includes this: "I. Attack Matrices for Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Halflings, <b>Half-Orcs</b> and Humans." This isn't quite right, though, as we've noted: NPC half-orcs use the monster table.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15448698120979281252021-05-28T12:09:53.534-04:002021-05-28T12:09:53.534-04:00The repeating Nat 20+ point for 1st level fighters...The repeating Nat 20+ point for 1st level fighters more or less begins where supernatural levels of AC begin... that is, an opponent with an AC -1 or better is almost certainly a supernatural creature or has magical armor, unless perhaps wearing plate and shield with DEX 17+...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54320461076761115192021-05-28T11:17:58.756-04:002021-05-28T11:17:58.756-04:00Two points:
I ALWAYS used the optional rule that F...Two points:<br />I ALWAYS used the optional rule that Fighters get +1/level.<br /><br />The really interesting thing with this table is how it compares to the other attack tables in the DMG, and how the tables in the DMG differ from OD&D. This table includes a column for 0 level Humans, which was not present in OD&D. Looking at the attack tables for other classes, we see that the first column for Magic-user (1-5) and Thieves (1-4) is the same as 0 level humans. This is a downgrade for those classes from OD&D (and B/X), and creates the odd circumstance where Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves of the Magic-User or Thief classes start with attacks that are worse than if they had no class at all! <br />Personally I have no problem with MUs starting with attacks equal to 0 level humans, that just seems logical. I do have mixed feelings on thieves though, and it really depends on how you view the class.(and that is a whole other topic)Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00908708023237168012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4390584563659178102021-05-28T10:51:29.999-04:002021-05-28T10:51:29.999-04:00Two further observations:
It's interesting t...Two further observations: <br />It's interesting that Gygax first justifies the string of 20s by saying that 20 is a perfect hit; it's as if a 20 represents a blow so amazing that it can shear through even extremely tough defenses. Only then does he mention the need to keep some foes from being hitproof, which I would consider the more compelling reason for the design decision. <br />My other observation is that the section on p. 82 needs to be closer to the combat matrices; just another example of the haphazard arrangement of info in the DMG.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30776673117157654762021-05-28T10:40:32.516-04:002021-05-28T10:40:32.516-04:00As regards the repeating 20s in the matrices: Gyga...As regards the repeating 20s in the matrices: Gygax explains this in the DMG on page 82 (after all the combat tables, and the clerics turning undead table, and the saving throw tables...why, Gary?). In a section headed "PROGRESSION ON THE COMBAT TABLES," he writes "A quick glance at the progression of numbers on the <b>COMBAT TABLES</b> will reveal that 20 is repeated. This reflects the fact that a 20 indicates a "perfect" hit. It also incidentally helps to assure that opponents with high armor class value are not "hit proof" in most cases." He goes on to say that if you don't like this, you can decide that all those 20s after the first one on the matrix have to be rolled <i>naturally</i>; you can't add modifiers. Anything above 20 must be achieved by a natural roll of 20 plus modifiers.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69847600726576264812021-05-28T10:29:50.450-04:002021-05-28T10:29:50.450-04:00As the first commentator mentioned, the explanatio...As the first commentator mentioned, the explanation is on DMG page 82. The first 20 can be either natural or with bonuses. The next 5 20s must be natural. 21 and beyond require a natural 20 plus a bonus.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17582898842629047347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76236163120217575612021-05-28T09:56:03.858-04:002021-05-28T09:56:03.858-04:00no one is commenting on how we get a 26 on a d20?no one is commenting on how we get a 26 on a d20?Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09872338936249305301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81983108661553786992021-05-28T09:53:31.947-04:002021-05-28T09:53:31.947-04:00Bonuses from magic or high strength was how I unde...Bonuses from magic or high strength was how I understood it.Kevin Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963383059386077519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76196444422581358932021-05-28T09:35:47.510-04:002021-05-28T09:35:47.510-04:00If a natural 20 isn't an auto hit in AD&D ...If a natural 20 isn't an auto hit in AD&D the table basically says a fighter needs some kind of 'plus' to hit the higher ACs. <br /><br />I get the whole natural 20 always hits thing, but realistically everyone shouldn't have a 5% chance to hit.<br /><br />Trying to shoot a humming bird from 100 feet with a long bow should be impossible for anyone but the most skilled. sevenbastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961009160456478009noreply@blogger.com