tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3775012033008551776..comments2024-03-28T18:47:26.087-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: REVIEW: The Death of King ArthurJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32621274847908035342011-11-08T20:19:39.840-05:002011-11-08T20:19:39.840-05:00The idea of translation is far from ludicrous; fal...<i>The idea of translation is far from ludicrous; false friends are a lot worse problem with this level of separation than into an unrelated language.</i><br /><br>It's certainly true that there are occasionally some rough spots in Malory but nothing that can't be handled by some footnotes or something similar. I don't really see the need for a full-fledged "translation" when 90%+ of the text is intelligible without much effort.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32503196807563674252011-11-08T19:57:55.867-05:002011-11-08T19:57:55.867-05:00Mallory's work is from 1485; most classificati...Mallory's work is from 1485; most classifications of English put that as Middle English, not Modern English. (The ISO standard line is 1500.) The idea of translation is far from ludicrous; false friends are a lot worse problem with this level of separation than into an unrelated language.Prosfilaeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08567819936724569257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50701789218411085572011-11-04T20:35:47.387-04:002011-11-04T20:35:47.387-04:00+1 Translation? PAH! I read Malory when I was 12.+1 Translation? PAH! I read Malory when I was 12.M Harold Pagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949772130509527838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1526636588344847512011-11-03T03:45:54.953-04:002011-11-03T03:45:54.953-04:00IMO Mallory's English is modern English, there...IMO Mallory's English is modern English, there is no need for 'translation' - the idea is very strange.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25072805944540273952011-11-02T18:16:52.259-04:002011-11-02T18:16:52.259-04:00I think they're saying that to make clear that...<i>I think they're saying that to make clear that he stays fairly close to the story as Mallory told it, as opposed to being one of the numerous versions that go farther afield.</i><br /><br>That's certainly true, although I feel the need to point out that Ackroyd consistently refers to what he is doing as "translation" of Malory, though the North American edition cover calls it a "retelling." It could just be that, for Ackroyd, the two terms are equivalent. I haven't read his <i>The Canterbury Tales</i>, so I can't say whether it adopts the same approach.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41826301528481500602011-11-02T17:02:00.908-04:002011-11-02T17:02:00.908-04:00"By means of putting Malory's name on tha..."By means of putting Malory's name on that cover, Ackroyd apparently attempts to lend authority to his own project. "<br /><br />I don't think Ackroyd needs to do that. He has a name and prestige of his own, as a writer. (Booker prize shortlist, among numerous other awards and a CBE.)<br /><br />I think they're saying that to make clear that he stays fairly close to the story as Mallory told it, as opposed to being one of the numerous versions that go farther afield.Jon Hendryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18270477004436129556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5434249973339679842011-11-02T09:24:28.128-04:002011-11-02T09:24:28.128-04:00Reading the brief Mallory quote above, hearing it ...Reading the brief Mallory quote above, hearing it with my mind's ear, just makes me want to return to the olde text. Mallory isn't a 'classic' by accident.Adelaide Gamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052999343460635401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71830554492540348472011-11-02T01:03:36.971-04:002011-11-02T01:03:36.971-04:00Personally I much prefer reading the original Malo...Personally I much prefer reading the original Malory. The middle English is very simple since his vocabulary is restrained, and only some modernization of spelling is required for most people. If you can read the King James Bible, you can read this. I did enjoy Vinaver's edition, although I had to smile at his contention that Malory did not intend the Morte to be one whole story, but rather an anthology.Talliferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08541684895097153972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46646553824893920542011-11-02T00:19:40.573-04:002011-11-02T00:19:40.573-04:00I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the unity of Ma...I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the unity of Malory's text, so I was glad to readyour criticisms of this. Almost every Arthurian writer retells Malory, but I hate when they try to lay claim to his name on top of it.<br /><br />As far as the version to read, I like the old Penguin version for the Caxton printed text. For the Winchester manuscript reading, I go with the one-volume paperback from Oxford University Press that Vinaver titled <i>Works</i>. It has the same text as the big two-volume set, but without all of the extra scholarly commentary and footnotes. The two-volume is great for research and study, but not so easy to carry on the bus.Robert Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03345468894311108269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64356991739232232592011-11-01T22:42:33.769-04:002011-11-01T22:42:33.769-04:00Oh this is taking me back to my college days and m...Oh this is taking me back to my college days and my Medieval history degree. The Penguin translation was the one to read, and you can often find it in used bookstores, especially in towns with any decent liberal arts college. <br /><br />I confess I liked Mallory more than T.H. White. I also really liked Geoffrey of Monmouth, which has a lot of Arthurian material, I know I'm probably in the minority on both of those preferences.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29333294356075679232011-11-01T20:53:37.117-04:002011-11-01T20:53:37.117-04:00A translator, on the other hand, has a proper resp...<i>A translator, on the other hand, has a proper responsibility to the text, and must attempt to elucidate the writers meaning and intention. Artistic license is not the domain of the translator.</i><br /><br>I wholeheartedly agree and Ackroyd exercises a fair degree of license in his "translation." Again, I like this version of the legend of Arthur, which follows the pattern of Malory very closely, but it deviates enough in its words and presentation that it's really a new work rather than Malory's own.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35895165704142264632011-11-01T20:50:34.731-04:002011-11-01T20:50:34.731-04:00Which translation of Mallory do you prefer? I'...<i>Which translation of Mallory do you prefer? I've always heard the old two volume Penguin version is awesome.</i><br /><br>I don't really have a favorite as such. I've read and enjoyed the Penguin one that you mention, as well as another whose translator I can't recall. Since college, though, I've always preferred my Oxford University Press edition of the original text edited by Vinaver to any translation.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64422418164639429612011-11-01T20:46:27.935-04:002011-11-01T20:46:27.935-04:00Arcadayn, the Penguin modernization of Caxton'...Arcadayn, the Penguin modernization of Caxton's Malory is by Janet Cowen and is indeed excellent.<br /><br />Helen Cooper did an excellent modernization of the Winchester MS of the Morte for Oxford World's Classics.<br /><br />The Norton World Classics Malory is good, but I ultimately find the attempt to replicate the Winchester MS's typographical features to be unwieldy and distracting.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5770893813096689432011-11-01T19:31:09.268-04:002011-11-01T19:31:09.268-04:00Sir Malory's telling of the Arthurian legend i...Sir Malory's telling of the Arthurian legend is the only one I read as a young lad, so it is in my mind, the only telling of the tale that I enjoy.toddroehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668825555921002430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78546213868839232152011-11-01T17:24:51.137-04:002011-11-01T17:24:51.137-04:00Nice post. I see no reason to apologize for highl...Nice post. I see no reason to apologize for highlighting your reservations about something or someone you generally admire. (Other than one's spouse.) It strikes me as the most useful kind of review. You've obviously taken the time to appreciate Ackroyd's work honestly and thus are most qualified to say what can and cannot be recommended about his approach.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26168927331170011442011-11-01T17:04:38.413-04:002011-11-01T17:04:38.413-04:00I agree with Rob. By means of putting Malory's...I agree with Rob. By means of putting Malory's name on that cover, Ackroyd apparently attempts to lend authority to his own project. Seems rather underhand to me, and, arrogant to boot. It's kind of like informing the reader that you have "fixed" Shakespeare by virtue of removing bothersome conventions. Contemporising the bard happens on stage all of the time (with various degrees of success), but to claim that such efforts possess any real authority would render any such production a laughing stock. <br /><br />A translator, on the other hand, has a proper responsibility to the text, and must attempt to elucidate the writers meaning and intention. Artistic license is not the domain of the translator.<br /><br />Personally, I was delighted to get my hands on the Norton Critical Edition of Le Morte Arthur (ed. Stephen H.A Shepherd). It presents an extensively footnoted unabridged text that covers both the Winchester Manuscript and the Caxton edition. A great work like this deserves to be unravelled slowly like the wonderful puzzle it is, and every reader can make an assessment of the content based on their own reading and the academic material available. Malory is worth such efforts!Ragnardbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02539582770411778351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17552686258593679662011-11-01T16:59:09.730-04:002011-11-01T16:59:09.730-04:00James - Which translation of Mallory do you prefer...James - Which translation of Mallory do you prefer? I've always heard the old two volume Penguin version is awesome.arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89421974410900219222011-11-01T16:48:08.707-04:002011-11-01T16:48:08.707-04:00My favorite retelling of the Arthurian tales was b...My favorite retelling of the Arthurian tales was by Bernard Cornwell. In his trilogy (The Winter King, Excalibur, The Scourge of God) he tells the story from the point of view of one of Arthur's warriors. The story is set in 5th century Britain during the Anglo-Saxon invasions and is as true to history as one could get, with Chainmail and scale being the best armors of the day. There are no flashy spells, no plate armor, no fantastic nonsense. Just a bunch of ex-Roman Britains (and one misplaced Saxon) defending their homeland from an inevitable barbarian conquest. There is mysticism and magic however as well as druids and the stories draw heavily from old British and Welsh mythology. <br /><br /> I highly recommend that you check it out.By The Swordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16799389743529116360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55871556338614623432011-11-01T16:26:40.051-04:002011-11-01T16:26:40.051-04:00Annoying that the press is marketing the book unde...<i>Annoying that the press is marketing the book under Malory's name, though.</i><br /><br>That's my only real beef with the book. Except in the vaguest sense, this isn't Malory, at least no more than any book of Arthurian tales in English is likely to be. I like Ackroyd's retelling; it's very conservative and doesn't put a modern spin on things or try to use them to advance an agenda, but it's not Malory.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80157754079735381462011-11-01T16:23:52.663-04:002011-11-01T16:23:52.663-04:00Retelling via rewriting is the essence of the Arth...Retelling via rewriting is the essence of the Arthurian tradition, so Ackroyd is no outlier in that regard. Annoying that the press is marketing the book under Malory's name, though.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.com