tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3980817344666700209..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Historical GamingJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5304204943375966752012-05-20T12:00:35.333-04:002012-05-20T12:00:35.333-04:00(Disqus doesn’t want to coöperate with the iPad......(Disqus doesn’t want to coöperate with the iPad...)<br /><br />That said, I think historical systems are useful even if you aren’t going to play it straight because they let you add the ahistorical bits yourself. Plus, a book on gaming in an era can give you perspectives that aren’t covered much in straight history books.Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46355832422949649052012-05-20T11:55:53.722-04:002012-05-20T11:55:53.722-04:00From my anecdotal point-of-view... While there are...From my anecdotal point-of-view... While there are a lot of us who are interested in historical gaming, we’re still a minority within the hobby. I think I have been the only one in any of my groups who really liked it. (And honestly, my enthusiasm for it isn’t what it used to be either.) I think the lack of historical games in-print today is merely a reflection of the fact that they never caught on with enough gamers.Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67357352261712417862012-04-26T10:20:19.347-04:002012-04-26T10:20:19.347-04:00 Although I own the excellent “Beat to Quarters” b... Although I own the excellent “Beat to Quarters” by<br />Omnihedron Games (an RPG where players take the role of officers and sailors in<br />the Royal Navy during the time of Napoleon), I still have yet to play it with<br />others. I agree with a number of other posters in that a GM has pressure on<br />them to “get it right” to make sure you keep the flavor of the period. I would<br />also add that, like historical miniature wargaming, I believe that any game<br />based on history has so many options that it is a huge challenge to get a group<br />together that can agree on a time period of play. Ancient Greece? Rome?<br />Renaissance? WWI? WWII? Civil War, Napoleonic Wars,… the list goes on.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/?page_id=94<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />The closest that I have ever come to getting “Beat to<br />Quarters” on the table is by leaving the rules on a nearby chair when my<br />miniature wargame friends get together. They are curious. We’ll see what<br />happens.kaijujeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52330668160668210972012-04-26T00:52:38.739-04:002012-04-26T00:52:38.739-04:00I played as much Gangbusters back in the day as D&...I played as much Gangbusters back in the day as D&D. We loved that game. I still have a copy of the brown box. Firstly, I think much of the reluctance to play historical RPG's has to do with the same difficulties present in studying history. History classes are a drag because of the built-in guilt complex. I love history but absolutely despised all the college history classes because of the obligatory kabuki-theater of hand-wringing that is included. As Nathan Easton points out, dealing with real history means dealing with the "real evil that men do". Secondly, anyone who has dipped their toes in the waters of historical wargaming knows that the greatest impediment to fun comes from the brigade of button-counters in that community. Whether we care to admit it or not, that same kind of smarmy arrogance is rife in all varieties of geek-dom and I fear would derail a historical RPG effort. It's a lot easier to convince a player of the validity of your reality in your homemade world.Dave Morrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85939269235110644022012-04-25T07:03:20.948-04:002012-04-25T07:03:20.948-04:00I've actually been running a WWII game based o...I've actually been running a WWII game based on simplified Cyberpunk 2020 rules.<br />http://billygoes.blogspot.com/search/label/Polish%20Resistance<br /><br />OK, really it's a 'blend'--it has zombies. But I picked WWII because I enjoy the historical aspect and creating stats for Panzers and PTRS-41s...Billynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29080403282753521082012-04-24T18:07:32.782-04:002012-04-24T18:07:32.782-04:00It's my experience that gamers' tastes are...It's my experience that gamers' tastes are influenced by film more than anything else. Most of the gamers and game designers I knew in the '70s and '80s grew up watching Westerns and gangster movies on TV every Saturday afternoon, and I was no different. Those types of movies aren't popular anymore, so the genres don't see much play in RPGs, either. Westerns had a small shot while Deadwood was running on HBO; IIRC, that's about the time when Aces & Eights appeared. If either of those genres enjoys a renaissance in TV and movies, I'd wager that we'll see games, too. Until then ... probably not.Steven Winternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42256233377741330042012-04-24T16:33:12.952-04:002012-04-24T16:33:12.952-04:00Change the name to Saloons, Shootists, & Sorce...Change the name to Saloons, Shootists, & Sorcerers and it will sell.Thomas Denmarknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75092770763411717032012-04-24T16:16:50.821-04:002012-04-24T16:16:50.821-04:00My own reasoning, and this may strike some as bein...My own reasoning, and this may strike some as being a bit asinine, is that real-world history is a bit darker than I like my games to be.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I draw a lot from horror films and novels in populating my game-worlds with threats. But I far, far prefer those imaginary terrors to dealing with, say the bounties placed on scalps during the American westward expansion. Nathan Eastonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23052308237515277402012-04-24T13:28:25.366-04:002012-04-24T13:28:25.366-04:00It's my theory that roleplayers' tastes ar...It's my theory that roleplayers' tastes are influenced by films more than by books. Games like Boot Hill and GangBusters aren't about history as much as they're about history as portrayed on the silver screen. I grew up watching Westerns and gangster movies every Saturday afternoon on TV, as did pretty much every other gamer and game designer I knew in the '70s and '80s, but those types of movies just aren't very popular anymore.<br /><br />The GangBusters campaign that we played with Mark Acres as GM remains the most amazing RPG campaign I've ever participated in. All the best GMing tricks I know, I learned from him.<br /><br />Even my D&D adventures always have a strong historical bent to them. When I paint PC miniatures, I prefer to buy figures from historical ranges--fighters in chainmail, with round shields and straight-edged swords--rather than anime-influenced caricatures. But again, I trace it back to movies like The Warlord and Ivanhoe planting those images in my impressionable mind as the "correct" way for warriors to look.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677895164302972957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59061164736050915902012-04-24T09:09:18.052-04:002012-04-24T09:09:18.052-04:00I'm interested in Saloons & Shootists...I'm interested in Saloons & Shootists...N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80497572844553314202012-04-24T08:35:17.834-04:002012-04-24T08:35:17.834-04:00I've often wanted to try playing a WWII comman...I've often wanted to try playing a WWII commando game, something with a "Guns of Navarone" feel to it. I like a dose of weirdness in my games, so throw in some occultism and make it like the "Castle Wolfenstein" games would be fun.<br /><br /><br />Hellboy comics have some good ideas to mine for this. The only problem is that I'd rather play in a game like this than run it. The GM's eternal lament.Tom Bolenbaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12381402800432231892012-04-24T08:32:31.103-04:002012-04-24T08:32:31.103-04:00Lee, 16th century Poland sounds like a really inte...Lee, 16th century Poland sounds like a really interesting era to base a game in. Can you recommend any source books for someone looking for an intro to the era?Tom Bolenbaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18629298198535988612012-04-24T03:49:31.602-04:002012-04-24T03:49:31.602-04:00It's sort-of in print. At least, you can still...It's sort-of in print. At least, you can still buy copies from FGU.Faoladhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23595786430895985052012-04-24T02:20:48.858-04:002012-04-24T02:20:48.858-04:00D&D, FASA Star Trek, and Villians and Vigilant...D&D, FASA Star Trek, and Villians and Vigilantes.<br /><br />I had Boot Hill (don't remember where or how I got it) but my gaming group at the time was not interested. I seem to remember pitting different characters against each other in shootouts by myself.Farmer in the Skynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12185833385653242412012-04-23T23:54:10.617-04:002012-04-23T23:54:10.617-04:00There are a number of skirmish-level western warga...There are a number of skirmish-level western wargames (as well as those in other historical genres) that are complicated enough - in the sense that the "miniatures" are detailed enough in characteristics to form viable (and distinct) characters - that they can readily be used as role-playing games. My favourite of these is <i>Once Upon A Time In The West</i> which even spawned an expansion that encouraged more people to "swap their +1 swords for six-shooters."<br /><br />I've found one reason people don't like playing historical games is that they feel very constrained by history. They don't feel that the game is about them so much any more, but rather about the history. Plus, it is often too close to their normal life to prevent escapism and daring do. After all, with magic, you avoid the problems of being speared through the gut and dying of peritonitis two weeks later.<br /><br />I do admit I like reusing history in games. I ran an 18th/19th century space campaign based entirely on the naval warfare of the period. Since Australians are woefully ignorant of history (in general), it allowed me to use the actual historical events.* The naval rules were actually based <i>directly</i> off a set of Napoleonic-era naval rules with the serial numbers scraped off.<br /><br />I also like the idea of historical games with the mind-set of the times. Magic may not actually work, but the player-characters are people that believe that it does. Spells are actually fakery.<br /><br />[* They <i>finally</i> realised something was up and went scurrying to the library when the Earth Mail Packet <i>Trent</i> was intercepted by Colonial Union forces and two Federation delegates on their way to the Core Worlds were removed from the ship. That was from a role-playing game that started well before the Colonials declared their independence from the Core (in particular Earth). Which is also what closed the campaign (I had expected them to catch on a <i>lot</i>sooner). And yes, like many of my games it was intentionally multi-generational.]Reverance Pavanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90047300880998272972012-04-23T22:52:24.799-04:002012-04-23T22:52:24.799-04:00If I decide to go ahead with producing it, I can e...If I decide to go ahead with producing it, I can easily do so without the need for a Kickstarter. It's more a question of whether it's my time, since I'm not sure there'd be much interest/demand for it.James Maliszewskihttp://grognardia.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34315894950004139342012-04-23T22:48:44.248-04:002012-04-23T22:48:44.248-04:00Why don't you Kickstart Saloons & Shootist...Why don't you Kickstart Saloons & Shootists after you finish your current project?Mutant1ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68686275823468220052012-04-23T22:38:26.059-04:002012-04-23T22:38:26.059-04:00My group just got together to play Call of Chulhu ...My group just got together to play Call of Chulhu on Friday night and the subject of Western RPGs, and Boot Hill versus GURPs, specifically, came up. Out of the four of us, I had played Boot Hill back in the day, and another guy had played GURPS Wild West, and both of us had a blast. We started wondering why no one seems to play games like that as much any more. Our theories:<br /><br />1) It's purely "what came first." We tried to extrapolate a scenario where the first true RPG for sale was based on the Wild West instead of fantasy, and how that would have shaped the hobby up until today. <br />2) What some people describe below - with fantasy or science-fiction, there's more allowance for "making things up" whereas in historical games there's often a feeling that you're reading a history text book just to play.<br />3) Real Life versus Fantasy. As people these days seem to have less time to play, their playing efforts get focused on games that help to remove them everyday life. It's the same thing as killing zombies in a video game or being a wizard or a fighter with a magical sword - it seems to take you out of reality more quickly than an historical game. Speaking of video games - with the exception of WW2 games, it seems that there aren't many FPS I can recall that have a historical background. It's mostly fantasy or science fiction.<br /><br />That's what we came up with at 11pm on a Friday after a few hours or role-playing and a few beers.Martin R. Thomashttp://daddyrolleda1.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53676585517692539092012-04-23T21:56:20.285-04:002012-04-23T21:56:20.285-04:00Interestingly, in the war game branch of the hobby...Interestingly, in the war game branch of the hobby, historical simulations were/are the norm, and fantasy and science fiction war-games were the outliers. Miniatures on the other hand, at one time were mostly about historical simulation, but the folks you see these days are painting figures of space marines, robots, or dwarves...Mark Sabalauskasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64746841312530316322012-04-23T21:55:56.855-04:002012-04-23T21:55:56.855-04:00Interestingly, in the war game branch of the hobby...Interestingly, in the war game branch of the hobby, historical simulations were/are the norm, and fantasy and science fiction war-games were the outliers. Miniatures on the other hand, at one time were mostly about historical simulation, but the folks you see these days are painting figures of space marines, robots, or dwarves...Mark Sabalauskasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74985865675336037792012-04-23T21:41:03.847-04:002012-04-23T21:41:03.847-04:00That depends on just how "straight historical...That depends on just how "straight historical" you want to define the term.<br /><br />As a GM who came to RPGs through board wargames in the 1970's, if your game includes magic, supernatural entities, psionics, or anything not present in the historic setting, it's not straight historical, but there are quibbles, even with that definition. For example, one could make a convincing argument that Gangbusters is pulp, not straight historic.<br /><br />So that's the definition I'll use here. That being said, straight historical games, are a tiny niche in the niche hobby that is RPGs. This is true in terms of sales, and I suspect, in terms of players who actually have an interest in playing in such scenarios<br /><br />When you look at the genres represented in the hobby, the 400 lb. gorilla is sword and sorcery fantasy, in its many variations. This is followed next by supers, then sci-fi (a broad category that could be further broken down into post-apocalyptic, cyberpunk, space opera, hard sci-fi, etc.), horror, and then all the rest. Even pulp, steampunk, and alternate history command more attention than straight historical settings. It's too small a niche to build a gameline on. Maybe a sourcebook for a generic system (GURPS) or at least easily adaptable system (thinking of some of the d20 Modern/Fantasy OGL) stuff in the last decade.<br /><br />I've run some strictly historical campaigns/adventures before, mostly straight Old West (Boot Hill in the old days, Sidewinder Recoiled during the height of d20, straight World War II (using BRP/d20 Modern), and straight modern Special Forces/Espionage type stuff (Spycraft/d20 Modern). <br /><br />The truth is, I'd say about half the people I've gamed with over the years, would have no interest in playing a straight historical setting or straight modern setting (i.e. without magic, or some alternate history twist) under any circumstances. Oh, many of them are fine with steampunk, pulp, period supernatural horror, or something like Deadlands, but not straight historical. I can't say that for any other type of game I've run. I've thrown it out there as an option several times for my current gaming group, and not really got any nibbles, even though, as a lover of history, and research, I know I could run some incredible games. Sigh.<br /><br />As for your statement about Aces and Eights, my guess is the sort of GM that is likely to want to run a historical game (and probably most of his players) has a passion for the period of the game he's running. For me personally, my notion is that I can build a better "straight historical" setting with the kind of research I'm likely to do for such a campaign, and do it far better than an RPG sourcebook could (though god knows I've stolen ideas and inspirations from a mountain of GURPS 3rd Ed books as starting points over the years). Maybe this is why Aces and Eights doesn't bother with a historic setting, because in this day and age, one can build the skeleton of a historic setting (particularly for the Old West) just browsing the Web, followed by an afternoon at a good library.<br /><br />Straight historical games also tend to run into the same sort of canonical problems that are more commonly associated with published settings that have a ton of material devoted to them (e.g. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Star Wars), and that question boils down to the eternal question: what do you do when your players break canon?<br /><br />At some point, unless you stretch the credibility of your world to the breaking point, your players are going to cross paths with, or want to rub elbows with, historical figures. If your player wants to put a lead musketball in the back of Jefferson Davis's head during the Mexican War to prevent the Civil War, do you still have a "straight" historical game? Do you let him? What do you do afterward? You think I kid, but I've seen Star Wars players and GMs agonize over this garbage, and there, we're only talking about a fictional setting. Here, we're talking about real events.Stuart Dollarhttp://www.facebook.com/people/Stuart-Dollar/100000246202373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89596996222128757872012-04-23T21:39:11.367-04:002012-04-23T21:39:11.367-04:00I was pretty much surrounded by "D&D-only...I was pretty much surrounded by "D&D-only" back then, I could only get in Top Secret or Star Frontiers with a shoe-horn. Twilight:2000 flew pretty well among both my wargamer and RPG friends. The Old West never bit me, nor the gangbusters era, but I might have tried Boot Hill. Pure historical games would have run up against the fact that I was the group's history buff, and no one else wanted hear me say "you're doing it wrong." <br /><br />Since then, I've run semi-historical D&D (late 16th-century Poland, in fact), but that had a smidgeon of fantasy. I'd love to run Twilight:2000 in the chaos following WW1. I have a good time with Serenity, which is Wild-West-meets-Traveller. Ancient Roman might be cool.Leehttp://profile.yahoo.com/GNL573UALPYYNDIBMJW4K73J4Inoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84697264598434310562012-04-23T20:49:15.911-04:002012-04-23T20:49:15.911-04:00In Spain we have Comandos de Guerra which was hist...In Spain we have Comandos de Guerra which was historic WW II, and we have also Aquelarre (which is more fantasy indeed, although it has quite some history background).<br /><br />While no idea if this is true or not, maybe history based games are more popular around Europe than the States (in players and in games available).Vicente Cartasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91684470889708048262012-04-23T20:35:38.279-04:002012-04-23T20:35:38.279-04:00For us the Trinity was D&D (for fantasy), Spac...For us the Trinity was D&D (for fantasy), Space Opera (for sci-fi), and Champions (for superhero stuff)Steve Bodenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12459971394976054512012-04-23T19:40:19.037-04:002012-04-23T19:40:19.037-04:00That was "nominally", and for about 10 y...That was "nominally", and for about 10 years in the 16th century... Since"Flashing blades" takes place in the 17th - the relations between Poland-Lithuania and the Ottoman Empire were actually a *bit* different:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Viennamikolaj kamlerhttp://www.manufaktura.art.pl/noreply@blogger.com