tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4520450281241955164..comments2024-03-28T15:30:09.903-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Patrimony of EvilJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43382764711221978062008-08-28T12:55:00.000-04:002008-08-28T12:55:00.000-04:00I wrote the Demons & Devils entries for the up...<I>I wrote the Demons & Devils entries for the upcoming OSRICv2. In researching for that, I found all of the named Devil Lords and all but 6 of the Demon Princes are free to use (Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy, Lolth, Kostchtchie, Juiblex, Graz'zt)</I><BR/><BR/>Interestingly, there's a version of Kostchtchie in the <I>Tome of Horrors</I> and it's OGC, while Juiblex, under the name "The Faceless Lord" and called "Jubilex" (sic) in the text is also there and also OGC.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43138555182190978292008-08-28T12:54:00.000-04:002008-08-28T12:54:00.000-04:00With the exception of people with a fair degree of...<I>With the exception of people with a fair degree of legal familiarity, using a retro-clone's rules is generally a safer proposition than referring directly to the trademarked game.</I><BR/><BR/>Correct. That's frankly why I consider it a boon. Things like OSRIC and S&W are unusual in that they have lawyers involved in their creation. That's not true for most retro-clone games and the OGL, regardless of its connection to the D20 system, is quite a boon in this regard.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87956101833743608962008-08-27T07:43:00.000-04:002008-08-27T07:43:00.000-04:00Um, for the record, I really enjoy Labyrinth Lords...Um, for the record, I really enjoy Labyrinth Lords and have played it a number of times. Just because someone doesn't think an official licensce is needed, doesn't make them "anti-retroclone".Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80689474082891680292008-08-26T20:32:00.000-04:002008-08-26T20:32:00.000-04:00Isn't it amazing how popularity can change eve...Isn't it amazing how popularity can change everything? Despite what anyone says, doing a retro-clone RIGHT is a helluva lot of work. The best are mature iterations of the original and not simple rewrites. They're also FREE, which guarantees a lot of goodwill. No wonder fans like it, and no wonder the 'industry' wankers want to get on the bandwagon. <BR/><BR/>I wrote the Demons & Devils entries for the upcoming OSRICv2. In researching for that, I found all of the named Devil Lords and all but 6 of the Demon Princes are free to use (Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy, Lolth, Kostchtchie, Juiblex, Graz'zt)Kellrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18149255116106626419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66591430792808929742008-08-26T18:55:00.000-04:002008-08-26T18:55:00.000-04:00I've noticed over the last several weeks that the ...I've noticed over the last several weeks that the anti-clone brigade have switched tactics. Gone is the argument that retro-clones are totally illegal. That has been replaced with the idea that what the clones are trying to achieve (the publication of new, original editions-compatible material) is legal, so why bother with a clone? <BR/><BR/>As far as I can tell, none of these critics have so far put their own advice into practice and actually published a saleable original editions-compatible product. I would love to see them do so and test the waters for the rest of us. And from what I've seen, none of these critics have any sort of legal qualifications either. <BR/><BR/>I can't help but think they're fighting the wrong battle here. Shame their energies aren't being directed into something more constructive. Or if they're so sure they're right, stop sniping and just do it - prove the retro-clone movement wrong. I think they'd find we'd applaud them if they proved right. We certainly would waste time nit-picking their endeavours on forums and blogs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82880979986563262922008-08-26T15:57:00.000-04:002008-08-26T15:57:00.000-04:00Also, as a practical matter, it's a lot easier to ...Also, as a practical matter, it's a lot easier to assemble a retro-clone from the SRD than it is to write one from scratch. If you already have these books then maybe you don't care, but if you want to attract new players it's a lot easier to do so if there's a version of the game in print.Kevin Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963383059386077519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66384434171858698662008-08-26T13:40:00.000-04:002008-08-26T13:40:00.000-04:00So my point remains, I could put together a rpg ga...<I>So my point remains, I could put together a rpg game or supplement and include a whip wielding Moloch servant of Beelzebub without any sort of licence and do so legally.</I><BR/><BR/>You could do so, but I wouldn't. The OGL is a guarantee that WotC isn't going to attempt to sue me for breach of copyright, whereas I have no such guarantee if I just trust that, because all the names and concepts are public domain, WotC's legal department will have no problem with my using them in a product clearly aimed at the audience of <I>D&D</I>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70708605233758648742008-08-26T13:32:00.000-04:002008-08-26T13:32:00.000-04:00"Sure, the Bible speaks of Moloch but does it..."Sure, the Bible speaks of Moloch but does it speak of him as the ruler of the 6th layer of Hell, lieutenant to Baalzebul, and wielding a whip?"<BR/><BR/>Not that I'm aware of, but then again, the 6th layer of Hell, a heirarchy among demons and their use of whips are not inventions of either D&D or WotC either. <BR/><BR/>So my point remains, I could put together a rpg game or supplement and include a whip wielding Moloch servant of Beelzebub without any sort of licence and do so legally.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26152408812946556732008-08-26T12:56:00.000-04:002008-08-26T12:56:00.000-04:00This goes towards proving my point. As you said, M...<I>This goes towards proving my point. As you said, Moloch is in the Bible. So is Baalzebul. So why in the world should anyone be thankful to WotC for being so generous as to allow others to use these names?</I><BR/><BR/>It's not the names for which I am thankful, but rather that the usage of them specific to <I>D&D</I> has been made Open Game Content. Sure, the Bible speaks of Moloch but does it speak of him as the ruler of the 6th layer of Hell, lieutenant to Baalzebul, and wielding a whip?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12844128041090388882008-08-26T12:49:00.000-04:002008-08-26T12:49:00.000-04:00"Moloch: Of Biblical origin, Moloch is the ruler o..."Moloch: Of Biblical origin, Moloch is the ruler of the sixth layer of Hell and lieutenant to Baalzebul. Both and the name of his master are OGC."<BR/><BR/>This goes towards proving my point. As you said, Moloch is in the Bible. So is Baalzebul. So why in the world should anyone be thankful to WotC for being so generous as to allow others to use these names? They didn't create them. They don't own them. Yet, they make people believe they need their permission to use them. It's worse than trademarked nazis.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33323640626752342312008-08-26T12:44:00.000-04:002008-08-26T12:44:00.000-04:00While it's true that rules and systems can't be pr...While it's true that rules and systems can't be protected by copyright, the practical implementation of that rule - what exactly is a rule and what is more than a rule - gets a bit more complex. That's the reason for the use of the OGL in retro-clones. For supplemental products (as opposed to complete rule systems), things get a bit easier - but there are still pitfalls for the unwary. Kenzer has a campaign world that's billed as compatible with 4e without using the GSL, but he's an IP lawyer. With the exception of people with a fair degree of legal familiarity, using a retro-clone's rules is generally a safer proposition than referring directly to the trademarked game.Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89890665698616952812008-08-26T12:06:00.000-04:002008-08-26T12:06:00.000-04:00"Rules mechanics can not be protected by law- whet..."Rules mechanics can not be protected by law- whether it's a board game or an rpg."<BR/><BR/>You're 100% right.<BR/><BR/>The reason I hate the OGL is that it encouraged so many publishers to use WotC's godawful "d20 system" as a basis for their game. I can't tell you how many times I've waded through game stores since imagining how much more interesting all these crap d20 system games as could have been if each had been forced to use a unique rules system. System diversity is a very good thing.<BR/><BR/>And that's not even considering all the ill-concieved garbage that would never have been pumped-out at all without the ability to ape 3E. The lack of an OGL would also have kept mountains of bargain-bin filler from ever seeing the light of day.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64686983891791289692008-08-26T09:47:00.000-04:002008-08-26T09:47:00.000-04:00...Jubilex sounds like an antidepressant for senio...<I>...Jubilex sounds like an antidepressant for seniors.</I><BR/><BR/>Ha! Guess that'd be a topical cream, in keeping with the Faceless Lord's potfolio.Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615194097431562045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45856704992288413242008-08-26T09:02:00.000-04:002008-08-26T09:02:00.000-04:00But Jubilex sounds like an antidepressant for seni...But Jubilex sounds like an antidepressant for seniors.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48007396047300389152008-08-26T08:17:00.000-04:002008-08-26T08:17:00.000-04:00The "Faceless Lord:" No, we can't call him Juiblex...<I>The "Faceless Lord:" No, we can't call him Juiblex, but we can call him Jubilex.</I><BR/><BR/>Heh. He's <I>always</I> been Jubilex to me anyway. I regard Juiblex as the error of a copyist in ancient times.Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615194097431562045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89863002195315752802008-08-26T07:53:00.000-04:002008-08-26T07:53:00.000-04:00Hmmmm, my take on it is that OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord...Hmmmm, my take on it is that OSRIC, Labyrinth Lords, Basic Fantasy, etc would all have been perfectly legal to produce with very few minor changes- or even no changes at all without the OGL. Rules mechanics can not be protected by law- whether it's a board game or an rpg. Reverse engineering a game, and changing the "fluff" is perfectly legal. <BR/><BR/>In some ways the OGL has a reverse effect to the one you're ascribing to it- because it's been offered, outside parties think they HAVE to use it- I mean why else would it be offered? Right? <BR/><BR/>We're beginning to see people come to the awareness that using the official licensce is completely unnescessary with the 4e.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75772492746746373762008-08-26T03:48:00.000-04:002008-08-26T03:48:00.000-04:00As it happens, every 1e plane-ruling archdevil is ...As it happens, <I>every</I> 1e plane-ruling archdevil is named, since Tiamat was the ruler of the first plane, five of them with specific level numbers attached:<BR/><BR/>Asmodus (9th)<BR/>Baalzebul<BR/>Belial (4th)<BR/>Dispater<BR/>Geryon (5th)<BR/>Mammon<BR/>Mephistopheles (8th)<BR/>Moloch (6th)Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138730966226244399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39595913813485306762008-08-26T01:30:00.000-04:002008-08-26T01:30:00.000-04:00Nicely said. The OGL's been quite a boon to the h...Nicely said. The OGL's been quite a boon to the hobby no matter how you slice it.<BR/><BR/>Completely unrelated - nice work on "The Ruined Monastery" from Fight On! #1. My group really enjoyed it, right down to the St. Gaxyg the Gray.Brian Ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03611254309132646269noreply@blogger.com