tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post47127520074548075..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: InheritanceJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64560691443520788912011-06-11T03:44:37.215-04:002011-06-11T03:44:37.215-04:00I've never seen a D&D PC who didn't ca...I've never seen a D&D PC who didn't carry his wealth on his shoulders, and have his corpse looted by his fellow adventurers when he bit the dust. I can't really imagine the circumstances in which players regularly engaged with this rule.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76145278200397811572011-06-07T21:27:27.208-04:002011-06-07T21:27:27.208-04:00Okay, I think this a great rule to highlight and c...Okay, I think this a great rule to highlight and contrast cross-editions. I'm going to do an analysis that's a bit orthogonal to yours:<br /><br />The original rule feels very "gamey" to me, and I like it. It provides a benefit to long-active players, a bit of carryover when they do lose a character. *<br /><br />Like, I had one AD&D game that got broken when players (with evil-ish PCs) realized it was more profitable to recruit new PCs, kill them, and take their starting gear, than it was to risk dungeons. From a purely game perspective it would have benefited to have a high-level rule of "treasure from killed PCs goes only to willed relatives", which would have fixed my problem.<br /><br />I think the degeneration of the rule is not due so much to fewer deaths, but rather another aspect of the growth of "deep background/story" philosophies. While the original rule says nothing explicit about the wider world (and I'd argue that piece could be written without ever considering it). Post-hoc you get reactions like Moldvay's ("local authorities" take the taxes), kelvingreen's critique (what happens if PC's are the authorities?), etc., and since it admittedly is sort of untenable without special campaign-specific support, the whole thing collapses on itself like a singularity.<br /><br />The idea would certainly not work in 3E as written because (a) PCs are allowed to enter the game at advanced levels, and (b) new PCs are dictated as having a fixed value of gear for balancing purposes. So (a) removes the original motivation for the rule (soften the blow of being bumped from high-level back to 1st-level), whereas (b) establishes a character-focused balancing dogma, which would be in contradiction with long-term players having some history-based advantage in the game.<br /><br />(* A similar rule that I've always wanted implement but never got the chance is to open up new PC race/class options, to players/groups who have made contact with some hidden race/society, etc. Of course, this would only come into play when you get busted down and start rolling a new character.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71817387881081781552011-06-07T18:55:30.581-04:002011-06-07T18:55:30.581-04:00I've just reached the point in my Labyrinth Lo...I've just reached the point in my Labyrinth Lord campaign where the characters are discovering that they can't easily spend or transport the wealth that they've accumulated. They haven't yet hit upon the idea of converting their cash into precious gems, but they're reluctant to bring their hoards of money back into the dungeon with them, too.<br /><br />This means that we're just reaching the point at which inheritance rules are actually meaningful, since anything on a PC's body when they die in the dungeon is automatically classified as loot and any supposed "inheritance" claims would be fought tooth and nail!<br /><br />I'm interested to see what kind of arrangements they make, though I will be broaching the idea of housing and the like at the outset of our next session.Taketoshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876641059472816784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39148426964567764962011-06-07T18:54:06.727-04:002011-06-07T18:54:06.727-04:00We used the inheritance rules back in the day. Wi...We used the inheritance rules back in the day. Without them, there would have been a lot more pvp conflicts. Granted, we were in middle school. <br /><br />Nevertheless, the enforcement of the rule has to be adjudicated by the DM and explained at the beginning of the game. Of course the players can come up with a million different ways to rationalize keeping the loot! As with the breaking of any contract, there are consequences. Number one being those who broke the contract are no longer protected by the contract. Their stuff is fair game if they die. Henchmen certainly won’t want to stick around if they see that their employers don’t even keep agreements with each other. Also, part of the DM's job in adjudicating (i.e. inflicting consequences) is making sure the offending PCs suffer great misfortune for such a heinous deed (e.g. negative modifiers, attacked first by toughest monsters, negative NPC reactions, etc). This may seem a little heavy handed to some, but such measures are sometimes necessary to prevent out of game conflict.arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11276726604395222482011-06-07T17:54:22.037-04:002011-06-07T17:54:22.037-04:00I have always used the inheritance rules if the pl...I have always used the inheritance rules if the players opt to designate an heir. The newly rolled heir gets all property, gold, etc that the previous character owned EXCEPT for items that were destroyed according to the magic items saving throws in the event of a fiery or lightning death.<br /><br />All items passing a save would be brought back out of the dungeon with the corpse (if possible) by the party. The items would be considered part of the inheritance but any gold or treasure gained during the adventure, including that gained prior to his death, would belong to the surviving party members. This gives the survivors more XP for surviving.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60360216912595825092011-06-07T14:34:21.084-04:002011-06-07T14:34:21.084-04:00Holmes deals with this type of old-school inherita...Holmes deals with this type of old-school inheritance a bit in his "Maze of Peril" novel, suggesting he may have used it in play. The man-at-arms hired by the party is killed in the dungeon and his boss Ajax inherits his share of the treasure. <br /><br />So that's another way that inheritance might be used practically: the designated relative might inherit a share of the treasure rather than the previous characters items.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82526606073475143862011-06-07T13:09:08.042-04:002011-06-07T13:09:08.042-04:00"What happens if the "local authorities&...<i>"What happens if the "local authorities" are the players, having reached ninth level and got themselves a stronghold?"</i><br /><br />Then you have the seed for a multi-generational plot of revenge and justice as the heir seek what the PCs stole from them. :)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69721978485623109782011-06-07T13:00:37.657-04:002011-06-07T13:00:37.657-04:00What happens if the "local authorities" ...What happens if the "local authorities" are the players, having reached ninth level and got themselves a stronghold?thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67434462727365601032011-06-07T12:26:25.368-04:002011-06-07T12:26:25.368-04:00"I don't recall ever dealing with player ..."I don't recall ever dealing with player inheritance issues in any of my games. Few characters lived long enough to acquire large estates and as for equipment how would you actually enforce such rules in "in-game" terms?"<br /><br />I have to say that this matches my recollection (though in a recent game a character made a point of sending "back to thier family" a relatively powerful magic item they acquired, before they were possessed by a demon and ran off) - along with JDJarvis's observation that everything was looted from the bodies of dead-team-mates (which was how said item in the previous example was acquired).<br /><br />In fact this was how "cream rose to the top" - essentially a certain critical mass that was a combination of characters and loot was churned in the those first-through-third levels until the fourh (and fifth) level characters all started to kind of miraculously appear via the binding of magical items and money to long-battered characters with decent hit points and statistics.<br /><br />D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1855854211907864482011-06-07T11:38:56.747-04:002011-06-07T11:38:56.747-04:00It certainly could be representative of the changi...It certainly could be representative of the changing attitude to player death, or simply a recognition that few players ever actually used the rules. <br /><br />As stated, the rules seem to deal more with houses, castles, chests of gold found stuffed under the deceased's mattress, and not necessarily the day-to-day equipment. After all, if the Player has "disappeared", he likely took the +1 Longsword with him. <br /><br />It seems more like it serves a way to keep large properties that rather high level characters would earn, thus rewarding/placating those players who have somehow managed to do so.<br /><br />I don't recall ever dealing with player inheritance issues in any of my games. Few characters lived long enough to acquire large estates and as for equipment how would you actually enforce such rules in "in-game" terms? Player A dies in the dungeon, Players X,Y and Z split up his stuff and tell the village authorities he was dissolved by green slime...probably wouldn't be the first time such an event has come up before the Village of Hommlet Probate Court.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28448153356872941142011-06-07T11:17:28.816-04:002011-06-07T11:17:28.816-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12096724870715714696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38946602256506452682011-06-07T11:05:41.670-04:002011-06-07T11:05:41.670-04:00Good observation JM. Back in the day, character d...Good observation JM. Back in the day, character death was common, but we had a lot less invested in our characters (pre-AD&D at least) so death's sting was felt less strongly. All the more reason to have a stable of henchmen and hirelings to serve as instant characters, should your current character perish. That also helps avoid the awkward initial meeting of the new PC. In fact, you might push it a step farther and argue that the newly-promoted henchman was the brother/sister of the slain character, and pass all of the possessions along to him/her.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26867568466745456502011-06-07T10:32:03.278-04:002011-06-07T10:32:03.278-04:00One of favorite bits in 'The Hobbit' is th...One of favorite bits in 'The Hobbit' is the reference in Bilbo's contract with the 13 dwarves that all his funeral expenses would be paid for, if necessary.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02098097316324553395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56513470564207548032011-06-07T10:29:53.854-04:002011-06-07T10:29:53.854-04:00I seem to recall the inheritance provisions of the...I seem to recall the inheritance provisions of the adventurist being to plunder the remains if not too busy fighting the monster. I've never really addressed the significance of the decline of inheritance rules before. And what they signify of the wider societies of our worlds. Interesting post.Adelaide Gamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052999343460635401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35525410346872685292011-06-07T10:28:53.036-04:002011-06-07T10:28:53.036-04:00I'm not sure I would read the inheritance rule...I'm not sure I would read the inheritance rules as any kind of affirmation of the lethality of the game. To me it seems like more of a way to allow the PLAYER to retain the possessions his character acquired rather than have his fellow players squabble over the things, or worse, seek to gain them via violence. Having an "iron clad" inheritance rule helps keeps player on player violence at bay since my 7th level fighter can't just decide to kill your 5th level cleric just to take his stuff.<br /><br />To me the inheritance rules you describe here are just ways a making sure the players get to keep the loot their old characters acquire and allow them to pass that loot down to a new characters when they (inevitably) grow bored of playing them or they actually die.<br /><br />After all, having an inheritance rule strongly implies that a character WILL live long enough to acquire valuable possessions doesn't it? If it was expected that characters would constantly die they would never have anything worth bequeathing and inheritance wouldn't be an issue or option.cibethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16815626047653230637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52488909739237375652011-06-07T09:56:42.899-04:002011-06-07T09:56:42.899-04:00Inheritance rules are really a great way to set up...Inheritance rules are really a great way to set up inter-PLAYER conflict. We all know the dead PC is begin stripped of all loot and goodies carried and left in the hall for the next gelatinous cube to deal with, why add the conflict created by the false expectation of inheritance?JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78767347035348546342011-06-07T09:48:57.629-04:002011-06-07T09:48:57.629-04:00I'm not sure I'd read too much into the Mo...I'm not sure I'd read too much into the Moldvay player/character distinction. It could be that Moldvay meant that a player could give up her own worldly possessions when a character died, but I somehow doubt that was the intent.MXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02839750340785203625noreply@blogger.com