tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4968398057479946279..comments2024-03-28T06:20:47.668-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: REVIEW: Ice Tower of the SalkaJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77506400673931258672010-03-01T09:27:25.338-05:002010-03-01T09:27:25.338-05:00Fair review. Seems overpriced, too thin, underdeve...Fair review. Seems overpriced, too thin, underdeveloped and all in all a disappointment. For this price I'd like to see 32 or 48 pages.s7610rahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02658417201343534248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4412364703265340772010-02-26T11:18:50.660-05:002010-02-26T11:18:50.660-05:00James wrote:
So it would appear. I guess I'm s...James wrote:<br /><i>So it would appear. I guess I'm spoiled by things like Fight On! and Stonehell, both of which have similar prices to many old school adventure modules and vastly more content.</i><br /><br />True, but POD self-publishers and both KS and FO! have the advantage of not paying for their content writing, editing, and development (I also imagine that most of the art and cartography is donated too): I imagine that neither FO! nor KS would be publishable at current prices if everyone working on them wasn't doing so for free. I can't speak for Michael's Stonehell, but I imagine if he had to pay himself low-to-standard freelance rates for his writing and maps, as well as for art and editing, that Stonehell would be a significantly more expensive product.<br /><br />And, just to be clear, I think it's great that old school gamers are so willing and able to donate their time and talent to make the multitude of products available today possible---because without donated time/talent, I don't think most would otherwise exist. <br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10283271920418515912010-02-25T17:30:45.495-05:002010-02-25T17:30:45.495-05:00It's more of a "gut feeling" than an...<i>It's more of a "gut feeling" than anything more rational, so there's not much discussion I can bring to bear on the topic. </i><br /><br />Gotcha - sounds the same as my "magic prices". $10 is a magic price for me - a 32 page module for $10 sounds fine to me but $11 sounds expensive. I recognize that that's a completely irrational stance given how much it costs to see a movie these days, but that's my gut speaking (and, of course, I can't afford to see many movies in a theater these days either, so there's that too...)<br /><br />I suspect it means I'm old and soon I'm going to be telling my kid the same kinds of stories that my dad always regaled me with when I was growing up and he was trying to impress upon me the value of a dollar ("Back in my day a candy bar only cost a nickel, and you could get a comic book for a dime, and ...". THOSE sorts of old-man stories. Now I've depressed myself...)Jerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10060430253113856206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2684537134156211692010-02-25T17:07:54.409-05:002010-02-25T17:07:54.409-05:00There's still room for modules, but the more m...<i>There's still room for modules, but the more modular and easier to plug in and adapt to my campaign, the better.</i><br /><br>I don't disagree. There's definitely a place for clearly modular adventures. I simply feel that <i>Ice Tower</i> sits uncomfortably between the two types of adventures -- not enough detail to be ready-to-run and a bit too eccentric (for lack of a better word) to make dropping into an existing campaign very easy.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15271466859966081652010-02-25T17:04:10.000-05:002010-02-25T17:04:10.000-05:00To piggy back on Melan's post for a moment, if...<i>To piggy back on Melan's post for a moment, if you look at price per page, today's modules are cheaper, overall, or at worst relatively comparable</i><br /><br>So it would appear. I guess I'm spoiled by things like <i>Fight On!</i> and <i>Stonehell</i>, both of which have similar prices to many old school adventure modules and vastly more content.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23356446154575497432010-02-25T16:41:28.655-05:002010-02-25T16:41:28.655-05:00The level of background detail sounds like a featu...The level of background detail sounds like a feature, not a bug, to me.<br /><br />I don't consider background story and plot hooks and such part of the 'heavy lifting' of adventure creation. I think the idea stuff is easy (and often flows effortlessly from an active campaign). I think the time-savings in a module comes from the grunt work: mapping, keying, cool encounter or trap 'specials,' et cetera.<br /><br />In a one shot, mini-series, or tournament-style adventure, I don't mind a lot of colorful background detail. But if I'm looking for help with my campaign game, I want a modular module that I can drop in and spindle/fold/mutilate to fit my game and approach. For that need, "ready to run" modules...aren't. (In my experience, anyway.)<br /><br />These days I'm all about doing my own thing, and about <b>my</b> campaign. I like stuff like geomorphs, tables and charts, magazines to mine for ideas, and such. There's still room for modules, but the more modular and easier to plug in and adapt to my campaign, the better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41069569518064400512010-02-25T15:16:08.421-05:002010-02-25T15:16:08.421-05:00To piggy back on Melan's post for a moment, if...To piggy back on Melan's post for a moment, if you look at price per page, today's modules are cheaper, overall, or at worst relatively comparable:<br /><br />Dungeon Geos = 6 sheets = $1.36 per page<br />Outdoor Geos = 11 sheets + 1 11x17 wrap-around cover (so call that 13 sheets) = $.87 per page<br />M&TA = 8 sheets = $1.04 per page<br />Character Record Sheets = 28 sheets = $.35 per page<br />G1-2 = 8 sheets + cover = 10 sheets = $1.47 per page<br />G3, D1 = 16 sheets + triple cover = 19 sheets = $.86 per page<br />D3 = 32 sheets + triple cover = 35 sheets = $.56 per page<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57601739195784055942010-02-25T12:05:27.587-05:002010-02-25T12:05:27.587-05:00I am home from work and have had time to do some m...I am home from work and have had time to do some more checking. I have before me a 1978 mono printing of <b>D1: Descent Into the Depths of the Earth</b> that has a catalogue with prices on its back. Again using the Inflation Calculator, here is a list of how much various TSR products cost in 1978 and how much they would go for today:<br /><br /><b>Dungeon Geomorphs I-III:</b> $2.49/$8.13<br /><b>Outdoor Geomorphs:</b> $3.49/$11.40<br /><b>Monster&Treasure Assortment I-III:</b> $2.49/$8.13<br /><b>Character Record Sheets (28 sheets):</b> $2.98/$9.73<br /><b>Modules G1-G2:</b> $4.49/$14.66<br /><b>Modules G3-D2:</b> $4.98/$16.26<br /><b>Module D3:</b> $19.53<br /><br />Let's take a look at comparable Judges Guild products (i.e. those that are of similar length with 16 to 24 pages and don't have huge poster maps in the back) from the same year (data from the Booty List featured in <b>Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde</b>):<br /><b>Modron</b> $3.50/$11.43<br /><b>Thieves of Fortress Badabaskor:</b> $3.00/$9.80<br /><b>Citadel of Fire:</b> $3.00/$9.80<br /><b>Hellpits of Nightfang:</b> $3.00/$9.80<br /><br />And so on. Note that Judges Guild was the "generic brand" of its day, with extremely modest production values.<br /><br />All in all, the expectations people have towards product pricing - in a period when old school gaming is a niche activity where print runs are usually in the 100-200 range and very rarely reach more than 500 - are unrealistic.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29955948265843860802010-02-25T09:52:07.008-05:002010-02-25T09:52:07.008-05:00For me, the less background information in a modul...<i>For me, the less background information in a module, the better.</i><br /><br>There's background and there's background. I don't much care for page upon page of unnecessary background either, but concise and evocative background are what separate a good adventure module from a merely serviceable one. After all, the whole point of buying a prepackaged module is that at least some of the heavy lifting has already been done for you, yes?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62875266609423831562010-02-25T09:49:26.379-05:002010-02-25T09:49:26.379-05:00Anyway, with regard to the actual content, do you ...<i>Anyway, with regard to the actual content, do you feel that the author has here purposefully opted for a more "do-it-yourself" sketch-like adventure to suit the style of Swords & Wizardry as contrasted with his adventures produced for, say, OSRIC?</i><br /><br>Hard to say, but it's certainly possible. As I noted, Boney is a good adventure writer, so I'm left to wonder why this module feels so different than, say, <i>Idol of the Orcs</i> or <i>The Red Mausoleum</i>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4300076947188670672010-02-25T09:46:16.854-05:002010-02-25T09:46:16.854-05:00For me, the less background information in a modul...For me, the less background information in a module, the better. I almost always find the background information to be a waste of space. I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I actually used the background information in a module.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1930101962496762032010-02-25T09:28:11.015-05:002010-02-25T09:28:11.015-05:00As Matthew mentioned, the differences in presentat...As Matthew mentioned, the differences in presentation between this module and Boney's OSRIC efforts may have been intentional. OSRIC and S&W are very different systems, not only in mechanics but in philosophy. With an S&W module I would hope for a more mallable tone in line with free wheelin' nature of OD&D. With an OSRIC module I'm looking for a dialed-in product that is meant to be played 'as written', even though it is understood that DMs are going to change things around regardless. I'm interested to hear if he changed his style to accomodate S&S.Wheggihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08514479185531072412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36796262474761758572010-02-25T08:46:52.047-05:002010-02-25T08:46:52.047-05:00Better than the original Pool of Radiance? Say it ...Better than the original Pool of Radiance? Say it isn't so! hehe<br /><br />I never played Secrets of the Silver Blades unfortunately, because by the time I was close to completing the original, Pools of Darkness came out and I jumped into that.<br /><br />I (last night in fact) completed Eye of the Beholder on the Nintendo DS - a gameboy advance remake with the most terrible menu system imaginable... but it handled combat just like those old SSI games. Was kind of fun to do.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90915727336980533332010-02-25T05:42:38.137-05:002010-02-25T05:42:38.137-05:00Actually, the concept is definitely older - it is ...Actually, the concept is definitely older - it is also the premise of <b>Secret of the Silver Blades</b>, probably the best of the old SSI Gold Box AD&D games.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61935458365993731832010-02-25T05:33:38.689-05:002010-02-25T05:33:38.689-05:00I seem to recall that there was a 3e scenario with...I seem to recall that there was a 3e scenario with the same general concept. "Tower in the Ice" or something along those lines.<br /><br />Ah yes, <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20050225a" rel="nofollow">here it is</a>, one of WotC's free adventures. Similar level too.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59358734465078812322010-02-25T04:46:58.525-05:002010-02-25T04:46:58.525-05:00Going by the Inflation Calculator, something that ...Going by the Inflation Calculator, something that cost $11 in 2008 would have been $3.76 in 1979 money. Considering that Ice Tower is a 22 page module, it is probably cheaper than a module from the <b>Against the Giants</b> series, which had a comparable cover price and a slightly smaller word count. For a micro-press item where you can't roll production costs into a 10,000+ print run, it is goddamn cheap.<br /><br />What could be cheaper than modern old school modules? That's right, gamers.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32743194864045648802010-02-25T04:42:24.337-05:002010-02-25T04:42:24.337-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18120190121755279932010-02-24T22:01:07.564-05:002010-02-24T22:01:07.564-05:00I dunno, $12, what is that, three beers maybe? My ...I dunno, $12, what is that, three beers maybe? My feeling is that the price is probably fair, and that the fact that other people are giving their ideas away for free should not impact on the price of those who want to sell unless it actually impacts on their ability to make the sale.<br /><br />Anyway, with regard to the actual content, do you feel that the author has here purposefully opted for a more "do-it-yourself" sketch-like adventure to suit the style of <i>Swords & Wizardry</i> as contrasted with his adventures produced for, say, OSRIC?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3420248633363272792010-02-24T19:39:21.383-05:002010-02-24T19:39:21.383-05:00Jer,
It's more of a "gut feeling" t...Jer,<br /><br />It's more of a "gut feeling" than anything more rational, so there's not much discussion I can bring to bear on the topic. I can only say that $12.00 is too much IMO for a 22-page module, of which only 11 pages are descriptive text, the rest being maps, interior covers, etc.<br /><br />It's a controversial question, I know, given how many copies most old school products sell, but my feeling is that, with so much superb material literally <i>being given away</i> through blogs, websites, and forums, publishers either need to set their prices lower or provide something that can't be found elsewhere these days -- and that's very difficult.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90845185105066157442010-02-24T19:33:07.542-05:002010-02-24T19:33:07.542-05:00I probably missed the post on this, but do you hav...I probably missed the post on this, but do you have thoughts for what a good dollar-per-page ratio might be? I mean, I know my what my personal "magic prices" are for a variety of things, but those have no actual bearing on market forces beyond my own biases and wallet (the former still stuck on 1990's pricing being the model and the latter not being much better...)Jerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10060430253113856206noreply@blogger.com