tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5540614524289622087..comments2024-03-28T06:20:47.668-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Half-Orcs Were a MistakeJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17285786638786815912022-09-26T21:04:11.152-04:002022-09-26T21:04:11.152-04:00What about AIs designed to be malevolent? (Think ...What about AIs designed to be malevolent? (Think Terminator robots.). I think James (and those who posted about xenomorphs and the Peter Jackson film’s Uruk-hai) are positing a fantasy version of this concept, not biological species per se, i.e., arising full-formed from the “black blood” rather than being raised from babies and learning malevolence from their culture.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46298682286870198132022-09-26T20:33:45.373-04:002022-09-26T20:33:45.373-04:00I don’t see a contradiction, given that none of th...I don’t see a contradiction, given that none of the PCs own slaves. Just having slavery in the setting isn’t questionable, but rather a reflection of an unfortunate reality; only relatively recently in history did disapproval become sufficient to deter its practitioners from owning up to it.<br /><br />More on point, the Ssú are a good way to achieve what you seek (as I’m sure you’re aware). The Enemies of Man are completely inimical but not “evil”. In fact, at the meta-level I and (I would think) a lot of players would have sympathy for their position, given the amount of crap inflicted on them by humanity. But in-game,the PCs would have no compunctions killing them and, luckily, would certainly never encounter their young, so the issue of non-combatants would not arise.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73475808435230716362022-09-26T13:12:26.797-04:002022-09-26T13:12:26.797-04:00Although I never ran AD&D as a kid (RuneQuest ...Although I never ran AD&D as a kid (RuneQuest and Dragon Warriors!), whenever I played AD&D, I *always* played half-orcs. It didn't hurt that Aly Morrison had designed such tremendous miniatures for them: http://solegends.com/citc/c010halforcs/index.htm<br /><br />Half-orcs, with their grim origins and distrusted status, made for great 'outsider' PCs - you didn't need much rationale for raiding tombs or plundering temples! They were natural adventurers (or murder-hoboes!).<br /><br />On Gygax's debt to Tolkien: the description of the half-orcs marching out of Isengard (in "Flotsam and Jetsam") clearly underpins the AD&D stuff about only 10% or so being able to pass as human: " there were some... that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."<br /><br />Note that these aren't the Uruk-hai (who are significantly shorter than Men - it's the human height that distinguishes the half-orcs; the participants in the conversation are all thoroughly familiar with the Uruk-hai of Isengard at this point). But the notion that most of the half-orc soldiers of Isengard were much more orcish-looking than the spy encountered in Bree must be the basis of Gygax's 10% distinction.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62387622132519821172022-09-26T12:22:40.320-04:002022-09-26T12:22:40.320-04:00The reason I was always hesitant to include half-o...The reason I was always hesitant to include half-orcs in my campaigns back it the 80s and 90s is that Gygax's descriptions imply that all half-orcs are conceived through rape. In the modern interpretation of Orcs (basically 3E onward) this certainly isn't the case, but in 1E it certainly seems to be. And that just raises a bunch of issues. Was the mother a captive and the half-orc raised by orcs? Or did the mother escape, or was attacked on a raid and the child raised in a human/demi-human society? It gets more complicated when you look at starting languages. Half-Orcs start knowing Common, Orc, and their alignment language. But Orcs don't speak Common in 1E, so how do half-orc PCs learn both Common and Orc? Does this imply that all half-orcs have spent time in both societies? Or that they are just encouraged to learn both languages by whichever society they are raised in?<br />And going back to the issue of the mother, just think of how a society would react to these situations. In a conservative society the mother would most likely be ostracized as would the child. Infanticide would not be uncommon. The whole situation is a very, very dark subject. It certainly could be something that could be very interesting for a mature and adult roleplaying group to explore, but clearly not a subject that most groups are going to want to deal with.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00908708023237168012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27563880276893460982022-09-26T12:00:18.442-04:002022-09-26T12:00:18.442-04:00Thing with orcs is that, if people really want som...Thing with orcs is that, if people really want some monsters to fight with no moral conundrums, it is //supremely// easy to do so.<br /><br />"Orcs are formed from battlefield mud under the light of a blood moon. The shades of the dead rise from the dirt, take up their rusted chain and spears, and march out in mindless imitation of their living days."<br /><br />or<br /><br />"Orcs are wild boars that have eaten enough human flesh to learn how to hate." <br /><br />Easy-breezy. If you want your orcs to be people, well they can be ordinary humans that are also fascist footsoldiers, or klingons (read, ordinary humans) who paint themselves green before battle or what have you.<br /><br />Honestly you could have all four and more at once. Variety in such things is good.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362417308874455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67601371158346914282022-09-26T11:49:45.816-04:002022-09-26T11:49:45.816-04:00"I cannot fathom the idea of a PC that is a h..."I cannot fathom the idea of a PC that is a half-demon, for example."<br /><br />A tiefling is just a cambion with the name changed and the most unpleasant part removed. A few tiny changes and they can fit right into Generic Vernacular Fantasyland.<br /><br />Cambions, if we're using medieval lore as a base, aren't half-demon; they've got two human parents, who were both attacked by a incubus/succubus. So, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the religious authorities of Generic Vernacular Fantasyland to take in cambion foundlings as an act of charity, especially if there's some residual infernal sensitivity - being able to detect demons by instinct and some resistance to possession is super useful if you're an exorcist, for example Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362417308874455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17168274450651712022-09-25T20:32:41.473-04:002022-09-25T20:32:41.473-04:00im surprised no one "Fantasy Genetics" i...im surprised no one "Fantasy Genetics" in Dragon 44( unless i didnt see it in comments above) by Mr Rihn and Mr Moore. Francisco Verdugohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13688083926283386191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78186686459707027752022-09-25T19:54:46.651-04:002022-09-25T19:54:46.651-04:00It's interesting that orcs etc. in AD&D we...It's interesting that orcs etc. in AD&D were all grouped into the "giant class" suggesting some kinship from goblin-orc-ogre-giants. As such, the view of orcs as more than ravening monsters likely stems from two literary sources we know Gary read: the sequence in Lord of the Rings in which Frodo and Sam are captured by orcs while infiltrating Mordor, and we see that they have their own issues and grumbles; here orcs are portrayed as evil, but perhaps no less human than many evil men serving dictators. The second sequence is the Harold Shea story The Roaring Trumpet, a major source for the Giant series, where we see giants as, again, rather unpleasant and enemies of the gods, but certainly being definitely "people" in all respects. And of course, both sections make for good storytelling, much more interesting then just having them as brutish monsters.<br /><br />Another source for hybrid monsters that Gary also certainly read was Lovecraft. Deep Ones are as horrific, if not more so, than orcs, and worship beings of cosmic horror, yet they also produce children with humans. (Of course, so do demons/devils in mythology.) Again, this makes for a more interesting story.<br /><br />(The basic irrationality of AD&D: Isn't it weird that Orcus is the evil ruler of the undead, instead of, say, being, say. the lord of wanton destruction and the creator of the race of orcs, his namesake?)<br /><br />Certainly killing non-combatants of *any* intelligent species creates ethical issues. Do dragons reproduce only by fission, or do you kill baby dragons? <br /><br />If the dungeon is a hole where intelligent monsters live, then going in and slaughtering them is ethically dubious. If a dungeon is a forward operating base for raids on peaceful surface-dweller lands, than striking back and eradicating it seems fine. Orcs or dragons may reproduce and have children; so may human bandits. Are human bandits also unsuitable because they might also have children in their own strongholds? <br /><br />I think the big problem with importing orcs from Tolkien is that D&D had, originally, no background setting. In Tolkien, there is a long-running war going on. Tolkien's orcs are not <i>just<i> evil, they are also the citizens of 3 main communities (the misty mountains, mordor, and isengard) that are expressively at a state of cold or hot war with a loose alliance of human and dwarven kingdoms and elven realms; Sauron is also the heir of the being who created them. Also, while the elves and dwarves are all on one side (unless fighting each other, as almost happened in the Hobbit) and the orcs (and wargs, trolls, etc.) on the other, humans are in the middle: the south-eastern and far northern-eastern realms are part of the Sauron alliance; the others, Rohan and Gondor, and their allies, are with the elves/dwarves..<br /><br />Because a de-facto state of cold or hot war exists, any encounter with orcs is not just "kill them because they're evil" but also part of a larger political issue. You can fight orcs not just because they are "evil" but also because they serve a hostile polity that is bent on your enslavement whose culture valorizes murder, black magic, bullying, and serving a demonic power. <br /><br />In contrast, in "raw" D&D there is no political dimension or cultural dimension to provide that second level of motivation, only the rough concept of "alignment". Because of this, instead of saying "most of (race X) live in the lands ruled by (evil overlord)" is replaced with "race X are Evil". <br /><br />All you'd probably need is something like:<br /><br />Alignment: "Evil" indicates that in the default D&D setting, most members of this species were raised in evil-aligned nations, tribes, or families. The majority of such individuals align themselves with evil, though there may be individual exceptions.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Given Gary's treatment of Drow, presumably he'd probably go along with the idea that orcs who were raised outside orcish culture would not be "born evil." But then again<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />David Pulverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00857524962421597982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54276273295465273812022-09-25T15:01:19.488-04:002022-09-25T15:01:19.488-04:00In the 1980s I asserted that in the multiverse of ...In the 1980s I asserted that in the multiverse of D&D, somewhere there would be a lawful good Mindflayer. My playing group mocked me, but I still stand by that statement 40 years later.StevenWarblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12697680166430879676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51297253627066786602022-09-25T14:40:42.795-04:002022-09-25T14:40:42.795-04:00And I'm bored of all the projection going on w...And I'm bored of all the projection going on with orcs. The same interpretation of orcs could be made using Vikings, or Visigoths, or the Mongols and the Vikings would be the most accurate given Toklien's desire for a mythology for England. Orcs in "Keep on the Borderlands" -- the first encounter with orcs for many GenXers were portrayed with pink pig-faces. The Goblins in the the Ranking/Bass Hobbit were greenish, wore pseudo European clothes and resembled nothing Human. All this "Orcs=muh racisums" is pure projection and problematization. Billy Ruffianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02235084827410167961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84098607135080373332022-09-25T14:13:39.881-04:002022-09-25T14:13:39.881-04:00Etrimyn,
I would consider The Other to be a prett...Etrimyn,<br /><br />I would consider The Other to be a pretty wide concept, personally. When it happens to relate to people who look like humans I think it's extra nasty. But, now we're starting to get into that kind of putting creatures into neat boxes, and that's distracting details. I've tried to make my point.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75249739978427574542022-09-25T13:55:34.907-04:002022-09-25T13:55:34.907-04:00I'm really bored with orcs, personally. The &q...I'm really bored with orcs, personally. The "naturalist" version of orcs as savage tribal warriors is just too close to Wild West depictions of rampaging "injuns" for my tastes. (And towards the end of his life Gygax even quoted, seemingly approvingly, Col. John Chivington's statement that "nits make lice" as justification for the slaying of orc babies, making the parallel with the massacre of Native American noncombatants clear.) We want to retain the sort of mythic resonance of the fearful Other, but without the racist propaganda that has often accompanied these images.<br /><br />In my B/X megadungeon campaign, orcs were what happened to humans who stayed down in the dungeon too long, warped by its baleful nature. They regressed into bestial savagery. I've never read 13th Age, but it sounds like a similar idea, that anyone could "go orc" if they give into their worst impulses.<br /><br />I'm prepping a 5e Spelljammer campaign now, and again, I'm going to use the orc stat block for humans that have gone off the rails from too much time in space and lost their connection to their humanity, and regressed to a state of brutal savagery.<br /><br />Both of these versions were inspired by Firefly's Reavers, which ironically were a stand-in for the Western genre's "injuns", but stripped of the racist undertones of having them be a separate ethnic group.<br /><br />I agree that making half-orcs (and later, orcs) a playable race was the crux of the problem. Once orcs (or drow, etc.) can be friendly adventurers, the notion of an entire culture of them being thoroughly evil becomes "problematic". I can't wait until people start demanding playable mind flayers!Jesse Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10802754799848483493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73345745828093298542022-09-25T13:48:06.678-04:002022-09-25T13:48:06.678-04:00I think the critical comment in this thread is &qu...I think the critical comment in this thread is "Morality isn't in the blood." Indeed no, it is not. That's a critical failure point in the argument. Morality, in a fictive setting where supernatural gods exist, realms of pure good and evil exist, beings of pure good and evil exist; beings of pure Law and pure Chaos exist; The very stuff from which the orc, the demon, the devil, the dragon etc. is Evil. It is the _spirit_ or _soul_ of the monster that is Evil. Even though it is a creature of flesh, blood and bone in the implied multiverse of D&D, it is not the flesh that makes it Evil. It is it's spirit. Travis Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08462669235840448896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40796006191421791882022-09-25T11:21:40.460-04:002022-09-25T11:21:40.460-04:00I have no objection to your setting or table to de...I have no objection to your setting or table to decide that all sophonts are of a particular alignment. However I feel hardcoding into the system limits the fun for others who want a game which doesn't do that.s7610rahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02658417201343534248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51821111315506215332022-09-25T10:08:20.892-04:002022-09-25T10:08:20.892-04:00Thanks for the clarification, Andreas.
"Wh...Thanks for the clarification, Andreas. <br /><br />"What's being called out is the thought that we need to dehumanize someone so we can kill them without remorse, and that blood based metaphysics is somehow making this process ok. Those ideas are racist bullshit."<br /><br />Again, do you consider Orcs as a someone, or a something? And if they qualify as people, is that based upon their appearance? Or their sentience?<br /><br />For example, are you offended when blood-based metaphysics says that all Red Dragons are chaotic evil? Or that all Fire Giants, who appear quite human-like, are lawful evil?<br /><br />Are all species-based alignment racist bullshit in your estimation? Or is it just for demi-humans and humanoids?<br /><br />Thanks.<br />Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68692533375904368682022-09-25T08:42:24.553-04:002022-09-25T08:42:24.553-04:00First lets's one thing clear. Nobody is callin...First lets's one thing clear. Nobody is calling someone else a racist here. What's being called out is the thought that we need to dehumanize someone so we can kill them without remorse, and that blood based metaphysics is somehow making this process ok. Those ideas are racist bullshit. <br />I have the utmost respect for James, and consider him a thoughtful and interesting writer about all facets of out hobby. I would happily hang out and play games with anyone in this conversation without any idea of them being bad persons for playing games in a different way than I do. In this text based form of conversation nuances is lost, and you have to be clear about what you address and in what tone. I take responsibility for not having done that. My bad. I am not condemning any one person as anything. I am assuming all people I converse with to be nice and sensible people until proven otherwise. I think people can disagree with me about the ideas mentioned above and not be despicable people. Really.<br />But, if you think your game is a murder simulation, and you really feel the need to degrade other beings as unworthy of living, real or fantasy, in order to kill them, I think you need to look at hard at the reasoning you use to defend that. Some of those reasons stink, and I think all of us are better staying away from that cesspool. I use strong language because I think we have far too long let unsound ideas go by thinking about what they mean.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14909724122817682582022-09-25T08:03:50.300-04:002022-09-25T08:03:50.300-04:00My D&D is different to yoursMy D&D is different to yourss7610rahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02658417201343534248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35394299218537921902022-09-25T00:04:25.022-04:002022-09-25T00:04:25.022-04:00I've come to not really like character races w... I've come to not really like character races with a bunch of extra powers in class/race based D&D (race as class is a different matter). To me the idea of of an orc, elf, ogre or demonic strain in a character, maybe with a minor benefit or hindrance attached, seems like a better option than a full half-half demi-human character. It avoids the problem of characters as humans in funny suits and allows the pure versions of those creatures to be as powerful and alien as the DM wants to make them.ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05866236293322652977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11451551831977609842022-09-24T17:44:40.798-04:002022-09-24T17:44:40.798-04:00Bonnacon,
None of the PCs in the House of Worms c...Bonnacon,<br /><br />None of the PCs in the House of Worms campaign personally own slaves, though of course slaves are commonplace in nearly all the societies of Tékumel. It's not an aspect of the setting we dwell upon in the game, though we don't shy away from it. <br /><br />You're correct in pointing out the somewhat contradictory nature of my own position here. I suppose we all draw our lines in different places and perhaps that should be the real take-away here.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50001715586826342542022-09-24T17:36:17.606-04:002022-09-24T17:36:17.606-04:00s7610ra, I like your comment too. And Michael Moo...s7610ra, I like your comment too. And Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” (1962) is an interesting inversion of this trope.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13079099208219670662022-09-24T17:29:07.961-04:002022-09-24T17:29:07.961-04:00I think you’ve hit the heart of it, StevenWarble. ...I think you’ve hit the heart of it, StevenWarble. The picaresque nature of D&D calls on the PCs to conduct themselves in ways we wouldn’t approve in real life. In a more gamey version with funhouse dungeons and the like going around killing things willy-nilly doesn’t seem so questionable; it’s like playing a video game. But a naturalistic campaign will shift the comfort zone, especially when modeling a millieu with very different values. James’ objection to the slaughter of non-combatants has left me wondering whether any PCs in the House of Worms campaign own slaves, an accepted practice in that setting, but one that in the real world would similarly be considered appalling.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87643327500158134842022-09-24T16:36:46.144-04:002022-09-24T16:36:46.144-04:00That is correct, a Chalana Arroy healer. Plus broo...That is correct, a Chalana Arroy healer. Plus broo are children of Thed, who was a victim of rape. Nuance does not disallow horrible foes you probably do want to kill on sight.s7610rahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02658417201343534248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63241029803181777462022-09-24T15:23:00.427-04:002022-09-24T15:23:00.427-04:00In one of the Runequest supplements from the Avalo...In one of the Runequest supplements from the Avalon Hill period, there is a mention of a reformed broo, I believe in the mountains of the Dragon Pass area, that is now a healer. So, even broo are not irredeemable.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45722755975517777292022-09-24T13:55:24.375-04:002022-09-24T13:55:24.375-04:00Agree. A half-demon bellying up to the bar turns ...Agree. A half-demon bellying up to the bar turns the fantastic into the mundane. A sense of wonder is lost.Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28366926249545684652022-09-24T13:49:48.276-04:002022-09-24T13:49:48.276-04:00Indeed. This bunch of new playable races are all b...Indeed. This bunch of new playable races are all boring... tieflings, dragonborns, etc.<br />I cannot fathom the idea of a PC that is a half-demon, for example. If a tiefling enters, let's say, a tavern, and nobody else in the room is afraid of such character, he simply enters the tavern, orders a beer and a steak and sits there eating and everything is ok for the rest of the customers, then it means demons are a common sight, thus the world of this fantasy setting is kinda already doomed for begin with. What I mean is, even fantasy settings need to make sense in a way. O Bardo da Névoahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172425574123777678noreply@blogger.com