tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5741151412553912512..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: The Temple of Elemental EvilJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89264535734611453992009-10-29T14:33:15.189-04:002009-10-29T14:33:15.189-04:00One very interesting thing is that this is the onl...<i>One very interesting thing is that this is the only "classic Gygax" module that has ever seen conversion to a computer game</i><br />Yikes, that game was a stinker! Although in fairness, it suffered from coding issues rather than any problems with the module itself.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39407184435860403212009-10-29T13:30:47.845-04:002009-10-29T13:30:47.845-04:00I was chatting with some of my gaming group about ...I was chatting with some of my gaming group about the poor state of <i>D&D</i> starter modules, in particular those for 3e and 4e, and how they don't really convey the strengths and feel of the game. Having only a little experience of <i>D&D</i>, I wondered if there wasn't one classic adventure they could include in each iteration of the game, merely updated to the latest set of mechanics; I was thinking of how <i>Call of Cthulhu</i> has always included <i>The Haunting</i> as a primer for new players. My friends couldn't think of a <i>D&D</i> analogue, but I wonder if <i>The Village of Hommlet</i> might not be that adventure?thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22111733580058413242009-10-29T12:26:02.883-04:002009-10-29T12:26:02.883-04:00Probably I don't like Temple part of T1-4 for ...Probably I don't like Temple part of T1-4 for other reasons than you.<br />I don't have strong memories of when I played on the T1-4, but one thing impressed me: at last, instead of starting the adventure in front of the dungeon entrance (maybe after a short briefing at the usual "The Golden Dragon Inn"), we found ourselves on the road, in front of a village. It was something new and fun, I had the feeling of facing something alive: the stories, the legends, the names of neighboring villages, the npcs characterization, helped satisfy my sense of wonder.<br />Then we reached Nulb, and started to explore the Temple. Initially it was very exciting (as always is to explore the very core of the evil), but after a dozen sessions, each player had hoped to finish the dungeon as soon as possible... all sense of wonder experienced previously had given way to a series of soulless rooms, often disconnected each other, where defeating monsters one after another. <br />We tried a few years ago, "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" for the 3rd edition and it was even worse...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50239441646653527252009-10-29T11:10:15.673-04:002009-10-29T11:10:15.673-04:00I couldn't get the computer version of TOE wor...I couldn't get the computer version of TOE working on my PC, which is a shame because I love turn based RPG especially D&D. Pool of radiance rocked, for example, as did the Bard's Tale. Right now I'm playing through the original Baldurs Gate to complete it a second time, after all these years... which you can kind of run turn based, but ... oh well. My brother loves the computer version of Temple of Elemental Evil, and he's only 19, anyhow.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91468350958909243232009-10-29T10:25:41.167-04:002009-10-29T10:25:41.167-04:00Funny thing about age and time...When I was a youn...Funny thing about age and time...When I was a young man I had no interest in Hommlet, I thought it was a joke really. When ToEE came out though, I saw it as the super module that it was.<br /><br />When I was younger we used to shop for games (mostly boxed) based on "heft value". In other words, if it weighed a lot there was probably a lot of stuff in it. Which of course was a "good" thing. ToEE certainly fell under this criteria.<br /><br />Now, as I'm older, I LOVE Village of Hommlet. I'm running a game out of it right this moment in fact. When my players saw it, they all asked if we were going to run ToEE as well. No way.<br /><br />The module, while chock full of neat ideas, is just way too much of a staid dungeon crawl. It's not mythic nor is it worthy of a tent-pole designation in my humble opinion. But I still hold a soft spot in my heart for it.Gamer Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05006232842482959060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23310713280601303312009-10-29T08:10:39.402-04:002009-10-29T08:10:39.402-04:00A few years ago, I decided I wanted to run an AD&a...A few years ago, I decided I wanted to run an AD&D 2E Greyhawk campaign, using the supermodules as the baseline - T1-4, A1-4, GDQ1-7 - and topping it off with Vecna Lives. I put a fair bit of time and effort into fleshing out T1-4, and figured I'd develop the rest as play unfurled.<br /><br />The campaign crashed and burned after a few game sessions. Player reaction to the T1 section (we didn't even finish the moathouse) ranged from apathy to snide comments.<br /><br />I recently sold my collection of supermodules on EBay (for more than I paid for them), and have no regrets.<br /><br />In retrospect, the village in T1 would have made a fairly good 'home base' to campaign outwards from.<br /><br />Sad to say, the classics are not always what they're cracked up to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24113592250233099562009-10-29T06:29:24.970-04:002009-10-29T06:29:24.970-04:00@john That computer game is one of my favourites. ...@john That computer game is one of my favourites. <br /><br /><br />As last couple comments pointed out. I see a very sharp line in responses/opinions re: ToEE.<br /><br />If you were around for and owned T1, you don't like/are disappointed by T1-4.<br /><br />If you first sampled the T with T1-4, your much more inclined to think it rocks.<br /><br />My <a href="http://trollandflame.blogspot.com/2009/10/failed-save-vs-getting-in-internet.html" rel="nofollow">post on ToEE</a> was trying to get those T1'ers (and others) to take a fresh, objective look at ToEE.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17309044389032087192009-10-29T06:17:58.347-04:002009-10-29T06:17:58.347-04:00I never played T1-4 but from reading it I see that...I never played T1-4 but from reading it I see that there is much potential. As James said, a diamond in the rough.<br /><br />What you can do with the ToEE if you are willing to heavily modify it, you can read in the blow campaign log. This is a massive word doc and only the first 45 pages are about th Temple. But I urge you to give it a try.<br /><br />http://www.cklarock.com/dnd/01_assets/logs/Compiled_TOEE2-LoT.rtfKristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91431986423210984682009-10-29T05:03:46.116-04:002009-10-29T05:03:46.116-04:00I wonder if this contributes to my love of ToEE.
...I wonder if this contributes to my love of ToEE.<br /><br />See, I never owned T1. We had two DMs in my group and my friend who DM'd when I wasn't had bought T1 and planned to run it, but never actually did.<br /><br />Thus, I didn't buy it and never played through it.<br /><br />So when T1-4 came out, I bought it fresh.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1937630799975102692009-10-29T04:51:14.257-04:002009-10-29T04:51:14.257-04:00Seeing grognard grumblings I once again is reminde...Seeing grognard grumblings I once again is reminded why it's impossible to trust anyone talking about the T series. Almost everyone of the grumbling grognards say they loved T1 and waited forever for T2 and was then disappointed when ToEE came out.<br /><br />With that history, and the built up expectations, it's impossible to get a objective view of things.<br /><br />I'm not saying that James is talking nonsense above, I'm just saying that when grognards speak about the qualities of ToEE it's very rarely not obscured by wishes of what their youthful selves would have liked seeing. T1-4 might suck, or be great. Give it to a 2nd ed gamer and he will probably give it a truer evaluation.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2935571314392153062009-10-29T00:24:35.676-04:002009-10-29T00:24:35.676-04:00"They're magical seals that bind Zuggtmoy..."They're magical seals that bind Zuggtmoy. Zuggtmoy can't just walk around him because the seals aren't specifically blocking that one path, they're binding Zuggtmoy directly."<br /><br />Agreed that is the explanation. It's never made sense to me.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59946709155370046752009-10-28T22:25:52.422-04:002009-10-28T22:25:52.422-04:00I don't own ma copy of Castle Whiterock, so it...I don't own ma copy of <i>Castle Whiterock</i>, so it's impossible for me to say whether I consider it a successful megadungeon or not. At the price it commanded when released -- and commands now -- I doubt I ever will own it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90447363602512608762009-10-28T22:12:21.204-04:002009-10-28T22:12:21.204-04:00i suppose you chose to continue to ignore 'CAS...i suppose you chose to continue to ignore 'CASTLE WHITEROCK' from Goodman Games as an example of a successful mega-dunngeonclovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647936958773934755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19625314313688117352009-10-28T21:47:22.408-04:002009-10-28T21:47:22.408-04:00Keep in mind that Zuggy is being imprisoned by wha...Keep in mind that Zuggy is being imprisoned by what amounts to be a Hedged Prison version of the Binding spell. <br /><br />I actually like T1-4, but then again, I'm a big fan of EGG and thought he improved over time, with Yggsburg being his last true creation and the capstone to his efforts. I really dismiss the thoughts of the "vague, less defined" modules as being "classic", as I felt as time marched on, most of us wanted more background and some details. But then I disagree with the whole "golden age" label. (The golden age of comics had a lot of stinkers and rather poor art, for instance).<br /><br />One very interesting thing is that this is the only "classic Gygax" module that has ever seen conversion to a computer game, and despite the use of 3e I think it translates well. It's too bad it didn't do as well in the marketplace. (Though I personally hope one of the things Gail is doing is trying to get Castle Zagyg turned into a computer game).JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77457037418105953532009-10-28T19:03:58.729-04:002009-10-28T19:03:58.729-04:00Rarely do I actually comment on your BLOG posts Ja...Rarely do I actually comment on your BLOG posts James , but have to agree with you wholeheartedly here. T1 is also one of my all time fave D&D products and I remember waiting and waiting anxiously for "T2". T1-4 is/was quite disappointing for me. Not a fan at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71851231813542380252009-10-28T18:58:08.701-04:002009-10-28T18:58:08.701-04:00Be grateful, gentlemen, some of us have never seen...<i>Be grateful, gentlemen, some of us have never seen, and likely will never experience the joys of OD&D and AD&D.</i><br /><br>The truly great thing is that it's never too late to experience older games, if you can find others who share your interest in them. Fortunately, that's a lot easier nowadays than it used to be thanks to the many sites, blogs, and forums dedicated to old school gaming. I've made quite a few new acquaintances who share my passions this way and I don't think I'm alone in this regard.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44375051672045633112009-10-28T18:17:50.995-04:002009-10-28T18:17:50.995-04:00This is all from memory...
Delta, the sealed gate...This is all from memory...<br /><br />Delta, the sealed gateways aren't there to stop the PCs, nor most of the dungeon's inhabitants. They're magical seals that bind Zuggtmoy. Zuggtmoy can't just walk around him because the seals aren't specifically blocking that one path, they're binding Zuggtmoy directly. The seals just happen to take the form of doors on the main route, which fits in with lots of magical traditions that emphasize the symbolism of the magical focus.Alan De Smethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091994420717419182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52987557068270196232009-10-28T18:09:38.235-04:002009-10-28T18:09:38.235-04:00I think I like TOEE a bit more than most (without ...I think I like TOEE a bit more than most (without having actually gamed it). It's a long read, doesn't have the eye-popping "wow" factor of S/G/D stuff, but it doesn't outright anger me like some old-timers. I give it maybe 6 out of 10.<br /><br />Main criticisms are contradictions with T1, esp., the wilderness map: (1) distances don't match, (2) unclear where the moathouse is, (3) undefined encounter areas, (4) the trail out of town from the T1 map doesn't make sense (sort of an inexcusable gaffe). Not clear why the TOEE sealed gateways are important, inasmuch as you can just walk around them by numerous alternate paths.<br /><br />Best thing is where the "lost druid on a mission" from T1 turns up. That's maybe the one really nice touch that sticks in my head after a few years.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91802424975245936102009-10-28T17:50:44.169-04:002009-10-28T17:50:44.169-04:00My experience with both the ToEE and the VoH seem ...My experience with both the ToEE and the VoH seem to parallel yours. I loved the Village used it as a kick off point to many a campaign, both as written (I too made attempts at my own ToEE) and as a back drop for my own inventions, the most successful being what came to be known as the Troll Wars Campaign.<br />Like you I was excited to pick up the ToEE when it came out and clearly remember the giddy excitement of the ride home from Boardroom Games in Indianapolis where I lived at the time, only to get home to the slow but inexorable creeping disappointment as I read further in further into the module.<br />At the time it wasn't anything I could put my finger on, just the realization that this just didn't have the magic of the classic Gygax modules. Even looking back now I can't say for sure what it was, perhaps as you said it was that lack of a cohesive feel, it was perhaps too big a task, many of the rooms where just monster repositories with not nearly enough of the touches of Gyaxian cleverness and imagination that made so many previous modules so wonderful.<br />Still there was much I did like, I thought the Nodes were cool, and got some good use out of them in more than one game. Also Nulb while sparsely detailed was, to me at least, a great spring board for many a night of adventuring.GrayPumpkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12776658442266878498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7757593331023578962009-10-28T17:36:31.681-04:002009-10-28T17:36:31.681-04:00Wow.
Could not disagree more.
T1-4 is a classic ...Wow.<br /><br />Could not disagree more.<br /><br />T1-4 is a classic and I'd probably rank it as the greatest module ever written. <br /><br />I'd also rate it as the greatest dungeon ever published by a company. <br /><br />The biggest sign of T1-4's greatness, to me, is that it very much does not play "canned". <br /><br />There are a lot of ingredients in the stew and every time I run it, they come together in different combinations. <br /><br />The interactions of the various factions in town, with the PCs and the factions in the dungeon especially, always lead to side adventures and intrigue that vary in timing, nature and intensity.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28920102366284536262009-10-28T17:29:51.029-04:002009-10-28T17:29:51.029-04:00Vampyr, why be jealous? Are you excited about the...Vampyr, why be jealous? Are you excited about the idea? Be excited to your other players! With a bit of luck your enthusiasm will be infectious and they'll want to play. <a href="http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/?page_id=4" rel="nofollow">Grab yourself a free copy of <em>Swords & Wizardry</em></a>, check out the <a href="http://www.lulu.com/content/3019374" rel="nofollow"><em>Quick Primer for Old Schol gaming</em></a> to help ground you in expectations and go to town! One of the many strengths of old-school play is the very minimal cost in time and money to start up, and thanks to the generosity of people like Mythmere Games, the financial cost is free (assuming you're willing to read it online, or can mooch free printouts). Go forth and play!Alan De Smethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091994420717419182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4503576962582491952009-10-28T17:23:45.605-04:002009-10-28T17:23:45.605-04:00I have to confess I'm jealous. I'm only 21...I have to confess I'm jealous. I'm only 21, started playing D&D in 3.5. I read this blog, and I envy these games, and these stories you have about this "Golden Age". I wish I had the opportunity to just play a game, where it wasn't always some plot-driven, pre-bought super-module that is so superficial and focused on tie-ins that my wallet pains.<br /><br />Be grateful, gentlemen, some of us have never seen, and likely will never experience the joys of OD&D and AD&D.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16217742963624929597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1900780119633853222009-10-28T17:14:59.364-04:002009-10-28T17:14:59.364-04:00As far as supermodules go, T1-4 is my favorite. I...As far as supermodules go, T1-4 is my favorite. I have no issue with GDQ1-7 or I3-5. Even A1-4 is okay in my books. <br /><br />Expressions of affection for B1-9 or S1-4 will yield you a raised eyebrow, however.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3392372445635890252009-10-28T16:59:32.289-04:002009-10-28T16:59:32.289-04:00Allan Grohe probably knows more about than I, but ...Allan Grohe probably knows more about than I, but I recall Gary Gygax explaining in one of his Q&A threads on ENWorld or Dragonsfoot that he simply ran out of steam when it came to finishing ToEE. Coupled with the fact that the ideas he did have very vaguely similar to the ideas he'd also had for Q1, he simply didn't proceed and had other projects to distract him. I suspect (though this is pure speculation) that if TSR's financial crisis hadn't occurred -- and thus necessitated the quick publication of "sure-fire" products -- we might never have seen ToEE at all.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10734634093243943662009-10-28T16:52:05.990-04:002009-10-28T16:52:05.990-04:00"In the years since, I've learned some of..."In the years since, I've learned some of why it took six years for The Temple of Elemental Evil to be published...."<br /><br />Could you share why it took six years, or at point us to a resource you believe to be reliable on the matter? I too was a bit surprised at the long gap between the two.Alan De Smethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091994420717419182noreply@blogger.com