tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6843844041636196464..comments2024-03-29T07:58:31.156-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: Isle of the ApeJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69887585124144046952009-05-12T08:13:00.000-04:002009-05-12T08:13:00.000-04:00I have this module in my collection, but have neve...I have this module in my collection, but have never actually read it yet. It sounds pretty intreguing, and I will have to dig my copy out tonight.Thanks for the review.It definately falls into that forgotten module category.ATOMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11174747472998540913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42779761553978614692009-05-07T16:36:00.000-04:002009-05-07T16:36:00.000-04:00We had the FF back in the day and I STILL don't re...We had the FF back in the day and I STILL don't really know what a norker is...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16535880785301442032009-05-07T14:06:00.000-04:002009-05-07T14:06:00.000-04:00I think he's talking about adventures that use/ref...<I>I think he's talking about adventures that use/reference FF monsters.</I><BR>Ah yes, that makes rather more sense in context! And thanks for the clarification too.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40709958321403710982009-05-07T12:01:00.000-04:002009-05-07T12:01:00.000-04:00"I was under the impression that the FF was a comp..."I was under the impression that the FF was a compilation of monsters from White Dwarf; did they appear in TSR's magazines too?"<br /><br />I think he's talking about adventures that use/reference FF monsters.<br /><br />Of course, not everything was from White Dwarf -- FF compiles some monsters from early TSR modules (G/D drow, Lolth, daemons, etc... not sure about the I1 monsters, they came out in the same year).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36524371140110615342009-05-07T08:36:00.000-04:002009-05-07T08:36:00.000-04:00Boxed text was borrowed into D&D from other ar...Boxed text was borrowed into D&D from other areas of life (such as interviewing by promotion boards) where the same boxed text HAS to be read verbatim to all applicants under the same conditions.<br /><br />To me role-playing and story-rtelling is intertwined, with narrators alternating between DM and the players and interfacing with the game mechanics. Stortytelling is what keeps the game from becoming roll playing dungeon crawls.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83539721695624971842009-05-07T05:16:00.000-04:002009-05-07T05:16:00.000-04:00I remember finding all the FF monsters pretty irri...<I>I remember finding all the FF monsters pretty irritating when I would find them in Dragon or Dungeon</I><BR>I was under the impression that the <I>FF</I> was a compilation of monsters from <I>White Dwarf</I>; did they appear in TSR's magazines too?thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61064080863604334142009-05-07T02:16:00.000-04:002009-05-07T02:16:00.000-04:00NOT A GREAT AVENTURE, BUT SOME SWEET SOFTCORE PORN...NOT A GREAT AVENTURE, BUT SOME SWEET SOFTCORE PORN ART IN THAT MODULE. IM TALKING SPECIFICAL ABOUT THE CHICK IN THE BIKINI THATS ALL TYED UP WAITING FOR KING KONG, AND SHE'S STRUGGLING A LITTLE BUT THE HAIR IS PERFECT AND SHE IS A KNOCK- OUT. ONE LOOK AT HER AND YOU'LL NEVER GO BACK TO HARPIES OR SUCUBUS AGAIN!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69767870948454777192009-05-07T01:28:00.000-04:002009-05-07T01:28:00.000-04:00I remember finding all the FF monsters pretty irri...I remember finding all the FF monsters pretty irritating when I would find them in Dragon or Dungeon since I never managed to ever find a Fiend Folio at any of the places I bought games (I'm pretty sure it was out of print by then). Now I have it (2 in fact!) and I am no longer puzzled by what the heck a norker is.ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00652431558688176341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73946907004956868802009-05-06T18:31:00.000-04:002009-05-06T18:31:00.000-04:00The point of this being that the "everything is co...<I>The point of this being that the "everything is core" mentality was already established well before WG6 and, if anything, the fact that it wasn't as prominent earlier is due solely to there being less core material.</I><BR><BR>True enough, on both points. Still, I think it's telling that WG6 explicitly counsels the use of a then-new book in order to get maximal enjoyment out of it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27839515964741747362009-05-06T18:29:00.000-04:002009-05-06T18:29:00.000-04:00If Castle Zagyg isn't (and I confess I haven't rea...<I>If Castle Zagyg isn't (and I confess I haven't read it closely enough to know one way or the other) it's presumably due to the good influence of Jeff Talanian.</I><BR><BR><I>Castle Zagyg</I> does have a fair amount of boxed text, but most of it is short, to the point, and focused solely on surface descriptions.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22824193434676061882009-05-06T18:06:00.000-04:002009-05-06T18:06:00.000-04:00I meant it to mean that this is another example of...<I>I meant it to mean that this is another example of a trend that begins in the mid-80s to expect that the players own more than the base rules of the game to get the most enjoyment out of a supplement. Compared to what we see today, this is small potatoes stuff, but it's still there.</I>Note that WG4 assumes the DM owns <I>Fiend Folio</I> without ever actually saying so, and EX1 assumes both FF and the MM2 (or perhaps modules D2 and S4 -- there are encounters with a behir and kuo-toa). The 1983 <I>World of Greyhawk</I> boxed set also included FF creatures in its encounter tables, and T1-4 contains creatures from both FF and MM2 and spells and magic items from UA -- mostly in the Nodes section, but there are at least 2 MM2 creatures that show up in the temple dungeons (drelb and rock reptiles) and numerous fungoid creatures from MM2 in Zuggtmoy's den IIRC.<br /><br />The point of this being that the "everything is core" mentality was already established well before WG6 and, if anything, the fact that it wasn't as prominent earlier is due solely to there being less core material. Module I1 is the only TSR product I can think of that actually reprints monster stats from FF rather than just assuming the reader already owns it.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19957580792614286162009-05-06T17:57:00.000-04:002009-05-06T17:57:00.000-04:00There is boxed text throughout the module and some...<I>There is boxed text throughout the module and some of it does stray beyond mere description of the things most immediately apparent to one's character. It's definitely a flaw in the module, no question.</I>This is actually a flaw in all of Gary's later-period modules, going back, arguably, as far as the canned intro to WG4. Both <I>Necropolis</I> and <I>Hall of Many Panes</I> are chock-full of overwritten boxed text. If <I>Castle Zagyg</I> isn't (and I confess I haven't read it closely enough to know one way or the other) it's presumably due to the good influence of Jeff Talanian.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58488709088356007002009-05-06T15:50:00.000-04:002009-05-06T15:50:00.000-04:00One of these days the old school community is goin...One of these days the old school community is going to have to reconcile their issues with Dragonlance and realise that it isn't the great evil of gaming or the cause of utter moral decay or something. <br /><br />It would also help if people stopped equating story games with railroading and badly written early days DL modules.AndrewWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01195025968448083264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27667915189740854032009-05-06T15:49:00.000-04:002009-05-06T15:49:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.AndrewWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01195025968448083264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23947791172660537232009-05-06T15:09:00.000-04:002009-05-06T15:09:00.000-04:00>It's the undue emphasis on roleplaying in ...>It's the undue emphasis on roleplaying in these games that rankles, nothing more<<br /><br />I think regardless of what the game asks, people either emphasize role play or they don't. <br /><br />I have yet to read 3rd ed. - 4th, so I actually have zero education on what the games ask as far as role-play emphasis. <br /><br />And not to say that I or my players do "theater" or even funny voices (just gruff inflections when doing dwarves or orcs or whatever - which I am sure almost every DM does), though I could do more if I wanted. But yeah, I don't want my games to be acting classes, I want them to be games. Like I said, I think I find a nice balance most of the time. <br /><br />I want these characters to be different from each other and have interesting things about them, like any group of characters in a book or movie. And I want them to do things that flesh out the world, just as the world helps flesh them out.<br /><br />As a comic book fan growing up, I used to think on the idea of endless alternate universes, and that the goings on in my world actually might be happening somewhere. In those terms, it was necessary to think more in terms of heart and soul than mechanics.<br /><br />Of course I am grown up now, and have no time for such childish notions (wink wink)Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71268893057649327752009-05-06T14:07:00.000-04:002009-05-06T14:07:00.000-04:00James, I would love to read an entire post on why ...<I>James, I would love to read an entire post on why "role play" is bad?</I><BR><BR>Roleplay <I>isn't</I> bad and neither I nor Gary Gygax in the cited article say that it is. However, I agree with his larger point that we must remember that "roleplaying" modifies "game," not the other way around. Gaming is not amateur theater nor is it an occasion to tell a great story of one's own devising. Such things aren't the point of gaming, though they may be a consequence of it. Roleplaying must never overshadow the game's other aspects, such as exploration, problem-solving, and, of course, action. It's the undue emphasis on roleplaying in these games that rankles, nothing more.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40726162035170471312009-05-06T14:00:00.000-04:002009-05-06T14:00:00.000-04:00I think you've lit another fuse, James.Oh, I fully...<I>I think you've lit another fuse, James.</I><BR><BR>Oh, I fully expect to catch flak from both sides on this one. Such is my lot in life :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11184350202811309472009-05-06T13:59:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:59:00.000-04:00I want to make sure that I understand this stateme...<I>I want to make sure that I understand this statement, does this mean that you feel that it is here which TSR started to expect people to own every product that they put out? Is that what "everything is core" means, or am I getting it wrong, and you mean something else entirely?</I><BR><BR>I meant it to mean that this is another example of a trend that begins in the mid-80s to expect that the players own more than the base rules of the game to get the most enjoyment out of a supplement. Compared to what we see today, this is small potatoes stuff, but it's still there.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16635385603117429522009-05-06T13:57:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:57:00.000-04:00... and two full pages of blocked text to deliver ...<I>... and two full pages of blocked text to deliver it. ay ay ay!</I><BR><BR>Quite true! There is boxed text throughout the module and some of it does stray beyond mere description of the things most immediately apparent to one's character. It's definitely a flaw in the module, no question.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66554581629536249492009-05-06T13:38:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:38:00.000-04:00This drove me to a spend a few years on a proper m...<I>This drove me to a spend a few years on a proper mass-combat system that interfaced correctly with man-to-man combat. <br /></I>This sounds very interesting - anything you would wish to share?Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21973757833257993662009-05-06T13:34:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:34:00.000-04:00I also have soft spot for WG6. The general idea of...I also have soft spot for WG6. The general idea of the adventure is referenced back in the AD&D DMG, so when I got it, it scratched quite an itch. I ran it (converted by by me for 3E) with my group in Boston (complete with big dinosaur posters on the walls). This echoed the publishing history, in that it also constituted the last game with that decade-long group of mine before I moved off to NYC. <br /><br />A very few comments about the mechanical play. (a) While the back cover does dictate level 18+, inside the pregenerated PCs average 16th level. (b) Yes, that intro text is too long, and Gary fell victim to a slight bit of Elminster-itis, indulging the spotlight on a personal PC. (c) The sizable rules for constant exposure and disease are a bit of a misstep, since in practice very low-level cleric spells can continually ward off these problems. (d) For my players, it's the "thought bubbles" encounter that did them in; they fell to this EGG-style puzzle in desperation, finally all attacking the bubbles (causing them to disappear and reappear in permanent imprisonment). (e) As a "what-if" scenario, we played through the ending, defeating Oonga handily. It seems like the "rainbow colors" puzzle at the end has dated poorly, as this was eminently obvious as soon as it popped up.<br /><br />Perhaps most importantly, near the beginning there's the question: How to run a fight between a few 16th+ level PCs and an army of hundreds of barbarians, spellcasters, and huge apes? No advice is given (and Gary told me personally that he assumed they run off after a few fireballs). This drove me to a spend a few years on a proper mass-combat system that interfaced correctly with man-to-man combat. <br /><br />Flavor-wise, there's almost no module like it. If anyone's interested in the 3E conversion with additional in-play observations, that's here:<br /><br />http://www.superdan.net/download/WG6.pdfDeltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47228589360883512162009-05-06T13:09:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:09:00.000-04:00James, I would love to read an entire post on why ...James, I would love to read an entire post on why "role play" is bad? I know you have probably mentioned reasons all over the blogs of the last year or so, but I have a job and other life interventions that keep me from reading everything.<br /><br />Is it because the term "role play" has become enmeshed with "storytelling" gaming of the last decade or so? I mean, my friends and I as young kids new to the game were pretty much role playing right away, that is, putting a lot of heart and soul into a character and thus in a way bringing them more to life than just a Monopoly token.<br /><br />I have to admit that, to my advantage, myself and many of my players have been actors and performers (improv my specialty). Maybe that sort of personality type is more prone to role-play or mechanics.<br /><br />Some of my greatest moments of gaming has been important and often heart-wrenching decisions characters have made based on how they have set themselves up to role-play that character. Not that they get some mechanic right or get a good role on a chart or table.<br /><br />Again, I haven't been able to research enough, but from what I can gather historically is:<br />Gygax - "role play bad."<br />Arneson - "role play good."<br /><br />I personally go for a 50/50 combo of "heart" and "brain" in my games. Not to say I hit that mark perfectly every time.<br /><br />As for the adventure, I like the sound of it. But jeez, I don't have characters hit the high level teens in my games (for the most part), so I guess I gotta stick with Isle of Dread.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65148506755078564222009-05-06T13:06:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:06:00.000-04:00t likewise marks one of several starting points fo...<I>t likewise marks one of several starting points for the "everything is core" movement that has, in my opinion, done great violence to the hobby.</I>That's an amazingly powerful statement to say, especially given the cycle of "core books" that WotC is delivering now. <br /><br />When I've made statements about the "churn", I'm told that the idea is that these books support and are compatible to "core" - which makes me ask - when wouldn't they be?<br /><br />Ah, that's probably another topic in and of itself - I think you've lit another fuse, James.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51391067898969554552009-05-06T12:56:00.000-04:002009-05-06T12:56:00.000-04:00It likewise marks one of several starting points f...<I>It likewise marks one of several starting points for the "everything is core" movement that has, in my opinion, done great violence to the hobby.</I>I want to make sure that I understand this statement, does this mean that you feel that it is here which TSR started to expect people to own every product that they put out? Is that what "everything is core" means, or am I getting it wrong, and you mean something else entirely?RipperXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506064393275174920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63454383032971003552009-05-06T12:44:00.000-04:002009-05-06T12:44:00.000-04:00I bought this when it came out and loved it. Howev...I bought this when it came out and loved it. However, I've never played it as we've never had any PCs within light-years of 18th level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com