tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6944547326700035387..comments2024-03-28T01:53:34.870-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: No LevelsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53038613004260791612010-07-08T23:16:59.074-04:002010-07-08T23:16:59.074-04:00When we played Traveler back in the day, I loved t...When we played Traveler back in the day, I loved that there was no character advancement. Our characters spent all there time working to increase their stats. It took 4 years to raise them 1 point temporarily and 4 years to make that permanent. People had to make aging rolls every 4 years, to avoid them dropping, so the idea was to try to break even, so no real advancement.<br /><br />The group I ran also had there own ship, and had made like 100 million credits, ny tading, pretty early in their careers. They went on adventures they wanted to go on. They played because they wanted to play, not because they wanted some kind of advancement. It made for a great time, and put the lie to the old wisdom about keeping your players poor, or they won't want to adventure anymore.<br /><br />There are some adventures/plot hooks that only work when your poor or have limited mobility, it seems like ½ the adventures published in magazine started with the characters broke and stranded in some star port. Or had some quest reward that my group would not care about. Ohh 4 high passage tickets. But there were many adventures that were made possible by their ship and money so it's a wash. <br /><br />The last thing that came out of that experience was after you get used to no advancement, I began to resent games that had advancement. You begin to see how much of your time and effort is tied around that, rather than doing the things you think would be fun. I also realized how much of my non-playing time, when I thought about the game revolved around thinking about how to advance or get certain items. In Traveler that time was spent thinking about setting up the new smuggling ring, or detective agency or mercenary group. It was very freeing. Ultimately you don't get better anyway, since most of the stuff you face gets better as you do.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11656554193044378009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35475750940529052132009-09-28T15:17:13.400-04:002009-09-28T15:17:13.400-04:00It would be Wanderer (the Fantasy supplement) desi...It would be Wanderer (the Fantasy supplement) designed for Traveller.<br /><br />Seriously, D&D without levels could be quite fun. As I always see skill advancement as part of the story. In my AD&D 1e campaigns, characters merely did not up a level when the XP hit the right number, they had to seek out Guildmasters, Sages, retired officers, etc. to get training. And, then their XP was reduced to zero. This had a damning effect on PCs making it harder to advance levels actually stimulated better play and a determination to really hunt out those big monsters and go on those great quests.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40812760587771989912009-09-28T10:30:36.484-04:002009-09-28T10:30:36.484-04:00That's still an incremental increase and not a...That's still an incremental increase and not a true level change. How many angels fit on the head of a pin?Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51519164495700287462009-09-27T11:42:42.360-04:002009-09-27T11:42:42.360-04:00Superman got more powerful over time. For example ...Superman got more powerful over time. For example he was initially able to "leap tall buildings with a single bound" but not fly. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Powers_and_abilities<br /><br />But the increase doesn't seem to have been acknowledged: it was 'retconned' that he'd always been that way, at least once he reached adulthood.<br /><br />In role-playing terms, maybe Superman's progress is comparable to the alleged increase in power between editions, rather than to a character's increase in power by levels.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24362734565610011992009-09-27T11:31:00.066-04:002009-09-27T11:31:00.066-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12966178637722522042009-09-27T09:28:05.492-04:002009-09-27T09:28:05.492-04:002 0f 2
AD&D does a decent job simulating leve...2 0f 2<br /><br />AD&D does a decent job simulating level advancement. Level is defined by new abilities and new spells for spell casters grouped by level. Where AD&D falls short is that character advancement is independent of any organization. In general. Hierarchies invest training and character development in exchange for commitment and loyalty. Both, to the hierarchy and do specific leaders through character playing politics to advance their career. Nothing new, but this dimension is completely missing from AD&D. this is only briefly hinted at in AD&D with the advancement of Druids, Monks and Assassins, where at certain levels the player has to defeat the NPC Master at the level above. Top show the missing dimension in AD&D, let's take the level advancement of the Thief character class. Their thieves' abilities improve with each level, that's good, but not enough. First three levels are okay as is, at 9th level the Master Thief is responsible for his or her own guild and an area of operations. Thief loses his guild/stronghold, s/he will likely be blamed and held accountable by his or her guild. Think of play possibilities there. As player advances through levels 4-6 s/he must establish close working relationship with NPC thieves from the guild who will further train him or her. here thieves might have running rivalries into which they will try to draw the player character, they will involve the player in the activities of guild to further alienate player from local society and test his/her loyalty to the guild. At level 5-8 thief will have to become more active in the running, money making, and the politics of the guild, thief will have to get acquainted with leaders of larger guilds to whom the local guild answers, s/he will have to compete against other guild members and former friends to advance to the next higher level (if the player so chooses). The biggest drawback of the AD&D is not the character classes (adventuring professions) or levels (a historically accurate feature of real world hierarchies), but the fact that AD&D leveling up remains abstract and separated from the world in which the player characters adventure and a world in which they players ought to be playing dues and jockeying to advance their careers. The issue is mot the munchkin power players who memorize their character level charts, the issue is with DM who do not MAKE PLAYERS PLAY/ROLE PLAY their character advancement and development.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56909920235036022572009-09-27T09:27:18.737-04:002009-09-27T09:27:18.737-04:001 of 2
I think in the real world there is BOTH, th...1 of 2<br />I think in the real world there is BOTH, the level and skill based advancement. To learn a skill all you need is a teacher. You find a teacher, you learn the skill, say hunting for D&D. pat a certain point you can improve as you go along while practicing this skill, but as you approach high competency/mastery, you again need a teacher to guide you to high mastery. Rune Quest simulates this very well.<br /><br />Then there is level advancement. By definition, and LEVEL has been defined by the HR management/training types: each level includes all the job skills of the previous level and also brand new skills, which make the NEW LEVEL drastically different from anything before. To keep with D&D frame, let's take the skill of a carpenter. Under the old Guild system (currently employed by the Unions as well as the world's military and civil service hierarchies), you have an Apprentice, a Journeyman, and a Master Craftsman. There is also the title of the Foreman. A layman might know how to chop wood and hammer a nail. Apprentice starts learning carpentry under a Master Craftsman. Apprentice can only work under direction. Apprentice learns the trade, but s/he is still a trainee. When an Apprentice learns to make his own tools, select and work with wood, and be a self-reliant worker on a job site, he becomes an independent Journeyman. S/he becomes a Foreman as s/he learns to direct others, plan work and to stat building from scratch (something that Journeyman couldn't competently do). As the skill of the Foeman is recognized and as he pays the dues of the guild, at the apex of his career the journeyman gets accorded the title of a Master: He can appraise the work to be done and figure out how much to charge in accordance with guild policy, s/he can develop new designs and new methods, s/he is also allowed to take on apprentices, teach them, and exploit their labor. Each level of guild advancement includes new skills and duties absent from previous levels.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19063125050702787392009-09-26T14:25:37.225-04:002009-09-26T14:25:37.225-04:00Is what we are really talking about here two diffe...Is what we are really talking about here two different <i>approaches</i> or <i>attitudes</i> toward game play? I tend to agree that level-free rules systems like Traveller (a favorite of mine) might help to encourage characterization over leveling / power-hungry advancement, but I have observed that often these dynamics are determined by certain players in the group. I know some players who are involved in this hobby because they totally thrive on character advancement; they memorize exactly which new feats and abilities they will get at the next level and spend much of their time obsessing over that (instead of, say, focusing on the wonderful details of the campaign setting lovingly recounted by the referee). I think whatever system you placed these guys in, they would be advancement-mongers, though certain systems fulfill their desires better than others do (for example, one such player I know is so pro-4e that he more or less refuses to play any other system right now, much to my chagrin).<br /><br />Obviously, I am of a different stripe, someone who vastly prefers "jamming weird stories" (to quote Chris T) than to think much at all about game mechanics or character advancement through levels. I too prefer experiential and material rewards for players and characters, and to encourage role-playing over rules-mongering. But couldn't an advancement-monger type player as easily find ways to obsess over character improvement in Traveller or OD&D as s/he could in the more hierarchically focused systems like AD&D, D&D 3.5, and D&D 4e? In short, when it comes to role-playing vs. advancement-obsession, is who we play with more important than exactly which rules system we use?Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81770221460611317192009-09-26T14:09:43.498-04:002009-09-26T14:09:43.498-04:00I'd love a fantasy version of Classic Travelle...I'd love a fantasy version of Classic Traveller. Even toyed with some mechanics. The primary draw for me is the lack of an advancement scheme.<br /><br />While level advancement makes for an interesting time, I think a game with no character advancement could be just as good. Instead of constantly thinking about advancing, how to advance, etc. the players would be free to consider broader goals within the setting.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5880630192450091922009-09-26T12:43:39.239-04:002009-09-26T12:43:39.239-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.rainswepthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165059567790555748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37444497454054554472009-09-26T11:36:01.559-04:002009-09-26T11:36:01.559-04:00@Brooze: Skill-based systems where you still advan...@Brooze: Skill-based systems where you still advance are effectively just a refinement of the leveling system so that you "level" one small part of the character at a time instead of the character as a whole. The vast majority of RPGs on the market today use such a system instead of "character level".Dyson Logoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14352404068239792475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1716814987506049192009-09-26T11:01:55.990-04:002009-09-26T11:01:55.990-04:00One game that is overlooked in the discussion is t...One game that is overlooked in the discussion is the RuneQuest. It has no levels, but the characters grow through inxcrease in their skill competencies and by learning new skills and improving their abilities.<br /><br />I think that LEVEL has been a defining characteristic of D&D - Spell, Monster, Character, Dungeon level. In a way it has been an artificial yardstick by which to balance the game, two things to consider in addition.<br /><br />Western military and civi service are level-based organisation. You start off as an E-1 to E-3 enlistedman (deoending on your level of education) and progress to a level E-6 (staff sergeant) or up into the upper management up to level E-9 Sergeant Major of the Army (the most senior enlisted man in the whole US Army). What is rhe so-called "name" level in D&D? 9th level? Which came first, the army enlistedman structure or D&D? Each level brings about higher rank, higher pay and higher responsibility. I think that most wargamers at the tiem were military buffs and Gygax has consciously or subcosciously imitated the military enlistedmen's structure.<br /><br />The second issue is the character advancement in literature. The idea that somene becomes a different person as a result of their experience (say, going to war), is relatively new to literature. If one to assume that the mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh is among the earliest works of fiction known to men, then the model of lietrature in which characters change by the end of the story is drastically new, dating back to say, around 1860's. As a matter of fact, whether there is any charcater transformation in the story is one of the criteria by which modern literature is defined, and the literary sritics started looking at character development in literature only from around 1960's. So, the idea of character growth through expriecne levels was also pretty new and radical, given 1973.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27338584842889758162009-09-26T07:31:15.867-04:002009-09-26T07:31:15.867-04:00I also dislike the fact that games with little cha...I also dislike the fact that games with little character advancement (or no character advancement) leave a lot up to chance. <br /><br />If you roll a terrible ability score in D&D, or even several, you can overcome that.<br /><br />On the other hand, a terrible character in Marvel FASERIP is a terrible cycle.<br /><br />You can either suck for a LONG time, hoarding your karma to try and advance, or you can blow it all in battle to try and stay competitive.<br /><br />That said, Marvel FASERIP is the only game with poor character advancement I enjoy, as long as you use the "character modeling" method of character creation detailed in the advancement rules.<br /><br />If character creation isn't random, little advancement seems less onerous to me.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67250466625659354512009-09-26T06:53:01.612-04:002009-09-26T06:53:01.612-04:00True and Gamma World characters start of with hein...True and Gamma World characters start of with heinous mutations so it balances out that way, I guess.Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88856723454514953572009-09-26T00:29:07.437-04:002009-09-26T00:29:07.437-04:00Levels do something else besides provide a self-ju...Levels do something else besides provide a self-justifying power incentive to keep playing-- they make the one game into many games. Fighting giant spiders with little more than your arguably superior wits, while knowing that just one bite will kill you one way or the other, is a lot different from chasing down a powerful wizard in a large city while minimizing civilian casualties, and where the most present danger is not to your person, but to your reputation as a hero. (And then, at the highest levels, jousting.) I've played D&D games where the "hero" status isn't earned. (Everyone rolls up a character and gets 20,000 XP). It's not my favorite approach but it highlights this function of levelling.<br /><br />But I guess those who know better are suggesting that you can get this "a-thousand-games-in-one" effect without levels. In the abstract that sounds like it would have similar drawbacks and less variety: kill the monster with the +1 sword so you can fight the monster with the +2 sword?Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37025945771962076382009-09-25T23:38:34.597-04:002009-09-25T23:38:34.597-04:00Of course, my opinion on this matter is also color...Of course, my opinion on this matter is also colored by my opinion and experience that the player is more important than the character. Or perhaps I should say...than the character’s stats.<br /><br />The way I play <i>Traveller</i> (influenced by the way my first gaming group played), skills are useful bonuses and sometimes required for specialized tasks, but generally not all that important. We always treated a cT character with no skills as generally competent at most things. Besides, bringing ideas to the table is often more important than skills, and with any plan, there’s often roles to play that don’t require any particular skill.<br /><br />Despite all the rolls during chargen, I’ve also been surprised by how often I end up with a character who is generally what I was shooting for.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58528701425004016002009-09-25T22:35:33.498-04:002009-09-25T22:35:33.498-04:00While I have no issue at all with exp and levels I...While I have no issue at all with exp and levels I can easily see dungeon crawling games don't need a built in advancement system beyond hunting down better and better equipment. A Fighter with a +2 sword, +3 Mithril Plate and a +3 Tower Shield is probably more experienced then a fellow with a leather cap, quilted jerkin and a club.JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47134431889140479892009-09-25T22:15:06.202-04:002009-09-25T22:15:06.202-04:00Richard said: "That which does not kill you c...Richard said: "That which does not kill you can only make you stronger", which neatly captures the gist of the matter. Namely, that D&D is a Nietzschean power fantasy.<br /><br />We have "Thus spoke Zarathustra" to blame/thank for D&D as much as Jack Vance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82571928758566163452009-09-25T21:16:21.463-04:002009-09-25T21:16:21.463-04:00With the exception of Traveller in its original fo...<i><br />With the exception of Traveller in its original form, I'm hard pressed to think of any RPG that doesn't include some way for characters to improve over time.<br /></i><br /><br />Erick Wujik's Amber RPG had no meaningful experience advancement. It was a diceless system where players bid for relative ranks to one another. You could hold new biddings if you want, but since all actions were resolved by <i>relative</i> differences, there was no point.Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039652384328042542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19176613580607753312009-09-25T20:47:11.155-04:002009-09-25T20:47:11.155-04:00RPGObjects_chuck, I pulled out my old 2e Paranoia ...RPGObjects_chuck, I pulled out my old 2e <i>Paranoia</i> rules last night which had the following suggestion:<br /><br />"<b>Note:</b> If your character's attribute scores total up to less than eighty, he's pretty darn wimpy. It is suggested that you whine and pule until your gamemaster allows you to roll up a new one. (If he refuses, don't despair: just get your character killed six times once play begins. This can be done in seconds)"<br /><br />: )<br /><br />Or you could just play a wimpy character for a change. A good DM should give bonuses every now and then for great ideas and good role-playing IMHO. That kind of thing should be encouraged.<br /><br />BTW has anyone ever advanced past Red security clearance in Paranoia? That's doing it wrong, right? :PChris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6246804751103554862009-09-25T20:21:47.839-04:002009-09-25T20:21:47.839-04:00I never liked Classic Traveler specifically becaus...I never liked Classic Traveler specifically because the character you start with, which is randomly determined, is your character.<br /><br />The one time I played, I spent about 30 minutes generating a character that was pretty much worthless.<br /><br />Everyone in the group was better than him at something, except for gambling.<br /><br />I was ok with this until I realized this was how it was going to be forever. <br /><br />That's not good game design imo. <br /><br />But your mileage may vary.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81752936408321425132009-09-25T20:00:27.143-04:002009-09-25T20:00:27.143-04:00Well Gamma World 2e didn't have XP but rather ...Well Gamma World 2e didn't have XP but rather Status Points which generated Rank instead of Levels, which I think is neater. It emphasizes the "endgame" aspect and encourages sandbox exploration to find both cool stuff and allies and also role-playing to win over those allies and get access to more cool stuff through said allies.<br /><br />That's why you have all those Cryptic Alliances with special rules for joining them and why 2e comes with a sweet sandbox full of tribes, monasteries etc.<br /><br />But as you say James, lower level games are more fun - more challenging.<br /><br />And yeah I also agree D&D probably wouldn't have become as popular among teenagers without that levelling up, increasing power levels aspect for the same reason that superhero comics are popular among the same demographic -ie. a young person's sense of powerlessness (or wish fulfillment, as Wally puts it). And I'm not knocking that because I was a hardcore RPG and comic-book nerd back then =) Only now I'm getting back into both because I'm more interested in jamming crazy stories.Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70515802114158678812009-09-25T19:26:45.852-04:002009-09-25T19:26:45.852-04:00I always saw the whole “MUs and clerics can’t use ...I always saw the whole “MUs and clerics can’t use swords” thing and such as primarily to control which magic items each class could use. (Gary didn’t want the MUs and clerics fighting with the fighters over who got the magic sword.) This was important because, from the beginning, <em>stuff</em> was as important as levels.<br /><br />The “endgame” of becoming a political figure in the game world was also there from the beginning. The stories of the Greyhawk campaign show that it actually happened, so it seems the game never needed more support for it than it provided.<br /><br />In fact, I think Mentzer D&D with it’s 36th level progression encouraged leveling over the endgame more than AD&D ever did. In spite of the domain and battle engine subsystems.<br /><br />No doubt that—in the end—leveling has become more dominant than gear and the “endgame”, but both were on fairly equal ground with levelling in the beginning and even in my experience with AD&D and B/X.<br /><br />Although, for me all of those things are still secondary. It’s the actual experience—that can’t be measured in points—that has always been my own primary reward/motivator.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82843938682489127662009-09-25T18:36:42.644-04:002009-09-25T18:36:42.644-04:00The way I see it, players have an understandable d...The way I see it, players have an understandable desire for <i>some</i> objective measurement of how they're becoming bigger and bigger figures in the game. The acquisition and improvement of the characters' innate abilites is one such measurement, but certainly not the only one. As Traveller has shown, acquiring <i>stuff</i> is another possibility as long as there's some sort of stuff to acquire that's actually special - like a big, improvable spaceship as opposed to dime-a-dozen pistols. Another such "carrot" would be the chance for the character to leave a permanent mark on the gameworld by becoming king or somesuch.<br /><br />I think one of D&D's great faults is ignoring such alternative yardsticks and sticking to the "power up" method - even though they actually had the groundworks laid down by the whole stronghold and followers shebang. That was a really promising idea that the game failed to follow up on - once you're ten times as powerful as you were in the beginning, you don't go on to become twenty times as powerful; you go on to participate in politics and warfare and the expansion of civilisation. In fact, the Mentzer series of books included rules for doing just that sort of thing, which is its greatest highlight for me.<br /><br />Unfortunately, the Classic line sort of became perceived as second fiddler to the main star Advanced D&D; and the latter has failed to address this matter abysmally. I believe that if Gary had skipped a dozen fun but ultimately useless tables like Random Prostitutes, Alleged Properties of Precious Stones and Nomenclature of Polearms and instead filled those pages with a few rules and pointers on managing your strongholds and putting your followers to good use, the subsequent history of RPGs would have been different and now there would be no reason to lament the lack of alternative improvement systems.<br /><br />But of course, that was not meant to be. Designed to be the "official tournament ruleset", AD&D largely decided not to concern itself with stuff outside the scope of tournament play. After all, the sort of "political" game I'm talking about is hard to present as a published module; it's easier and more profitable to ignore such interesting possibilities and just keep cranking out "kill things and take their stuff in dungeons" adventures.<br /><br />Not that I'm <i>dissing</i> Gary, TSR or anyone in particular for doing so, it was good business practice. But looking back from today, I can't help thinking that on the long run we would have been off the other way around.Premierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13790513370542680321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49345700180313209072009-09-25T17:51:56.657-04:002009-09-25T17:51:56.657-04:00I still love the original Traveller game, it's...I still love the original Traveller game, it's the only edition I play. I never really saw or felt the need for character "improvement" in terms of game mechanics. Equipment, money, power, influence, character accomplishments, all of those were enough player motivation for me. I'd love so see more of that. OTOH, my players, while always willing to play Traveller, always agitate for a means to improve their skill levels.Baron Greystonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636292202674906870noreply@blogger.com