tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7007921506696049423..comments2024-03-28T09:41:39.187-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Mapping and MeJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6495403229084952952010-02-21T14:00:07.151-05:002010-02-21T14:00:07.151-05:00In my forays into the old school, I never bring up...In my forays into the old school, I never bring up the issue of mapping, I just start describing thing and let the players decide how to handle it. Inevitably someone appoints themselves mapper, and I've seen everything from scrawled boxes and lines to careful cartography result. As James said, I'll correct anything that would be an obvious mistake from the characters' viewpoint, but otherwise imprecisions and errors stand. The best part has been being able to offer maps drawn by players as treasure to other parties!Rafialhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077298546098373938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58141931412868890912010-02-21T10:33:01.370-05:002010-02-21T10:33:01.370-05:00how much more pleasant it would be if we were all ...<i>how much more pleasant it would be if we were all just using computers instead</i><br /><br />Is this just referring to playing something like WoW instead, or nowadays does everyone use a computer to supplement a sit-down RPG session?Todd A. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16177477114706281373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46020210517625102092010-02-21T00:29:29.461-05:002010-02-21T00:29:29.461-05:00I tried this approach with a group of 20something ...I tried this approach with a group of 20something gamers using one of Mike's excellent Stonehell quadrants, and they hated mapping, mostly because it exacerbated how much more pleasant it would be if we were all just using computers instead.<br /><br />(Perhaps some of the new "Surface" technology will allow us to bridge the gap between the twisting "old school"labyrinths and the simpler, smaller "new school" dungeons?)<br /><br />For now, I'll stick with the new-school approach and leave the graph paper to you 30+ yr ancient types.Matthew McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953220371311903744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87839028873610006062010-02-20T20:22:28.934-05:002010-02-20T20:22:28.934-05:00If the characters want anything more specific and ...<i>If the characters want anything more specific and detailed than that, I give the mapper help but it takes extra time and I roll for wandering monsters while it's happening, as well as increasing the chance for surprise.</i><br /><br />Serves 'em right! ;)<br /><br />That's a good point though, if you're going to take your sweet time, then you sacrifice safety.<br /><br />What about mapping in sci-fi RPGs? Do they benefit from more accurate maps if they use some sort of scanning device?Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07997164906328234122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49634965889009625792010-02-20T17:48:27.641-05:002010-02-20T17:48:27.641-05:00> One hopes you are speaking only for your self...> One hopes you are speaking only for your self. <br /><br />Since I didn't actually write what you're quoting, it appears you're actually speaking for me.<br /><br />If you've been using a detailed gridded playing surface, ruled strictly on the precise direction a character is facing in, applied precise bonuses for distance, penalties for move, used area effect templates, etc., in a rigorous manner since 1976, fair enough.<br />That would certainly be rather more than that the "big picture" alluded to in James's blog.irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62033259953227969492010-02-20T15:48:28.074-05:002010-02-20T15:48:28.074-05:00[W]hilst detailed, strategic /placing/ of one'...<i>[W]hilst detailed, strategic /placing/ of one's characters (for combat, in particular) is still something to be eschewed as being new-school 3e/4e.</i><br /><br />One hopes you are speaking only for your self. Having played D&D since 1976 (starting with the wood grain box), I have been using miniatures and maps from the start. New-school... I think not. It is merely a preference, and one likely influenced by broader gaming exposure.leadjunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18315365767527043985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14440141540734001202010-02-20T13:11:00.366-05:002010-02-20T13:11:00.366-05:00> Delta wrote:
> Seems trollish
*g*. Videog...> Delta wrote:<br />> Seems trollish<br /><br />*g*. Videogamish, perhaps?<br />I can visualise those characters following transit routes between "encounters" and spilling out onto the DM's battlegrid when those occur. :)<br />OK, I know that's not quite what you were meaning, sorry!<br /><br />Yeah, maybe some oldtimers do believe in "an old-school desire for a perfectly measured and well-drawn map" (anyone?) but where that /is/ required to a greater degree is undoubtedly the new-school crunchy versions of D&D which require precision of spatial awareness; either on the table or the screen.<br /><i>- Rolemaster works better for that, anyhow, without having to buy into the rest of the new-school gaming mentality... (*yay* for blanket statements!)</i><br /><br />Personally, I prefer to map for the players. Saves on arguments and allows me to illustrate their characters' comprehension of something they themselves are not privy to.irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24651656426098956082010-02-20T12:40:04.561-05:002010-02-20T12:40:04.561-05:00> It seems like sloppy mapping is an area ripe ...> It seems like sloppy mapping is an area ripe for creative exploration by DMs and dungeon designers.<br /><br />Amen. ;)<br /><br />(Next time I have to type a bit more quickly, too *jk*)irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48237022323122141912010-02-20T12:38:34.240-05:002010-02-20T12:38:34.240-05:00> Why stop at graph paper? Why should the mappe...> Why stop at graph paper? Why should the mapper be allowed to use a pencil?<br /><br />Blame Thomas Jefferson, eh? http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Image:Ruledpaper.jpg<br /><br />Pencil and graph paper is probably better treated as a meta-tool, IMHO; to help the players understanding during and between sessions a process which may or may not be being carried out in a proximate manner by their actual PCs. If anyone's character is actually mapping out in detail I'd like to see their guild of coordination accreditation, so to speak, since that's none too easy by torchlight at the best of times. I've usually taken the line when mapping is used (not just indoor/underground) that what is actually presented to the players can be built up in different ways by different PCs memorisation and innate skills, short-hand notation, use of tracking symbols, revisiting, etc., and that maps are by their nature mutable and inexact depending on character skills, background, time taken, etc. Don't screw over the players by abusing that lack of precision /too/ much and it shouldn't become an issue that gets in the way of gameplay; or, indeed, that it can actually aid player's mindsets in that they become used to the nebulous becoming less so, rather than simply the unveiling of a inch-perfect work of cartography on a computer screen. <br />(This approach also helps somewhat in the old debate as to what happens when a red dragon torches the one-and-only "map-maker" *g*).<br /><br />02c only, anyhow, fwiw ^^<br />d.irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17980822701042521692010-02-20T12:24:22.240-05:002010-02-20T12:24:22.240-05:00"Pray tell, how does one place characters in ..."Pray tell, how does one place characters in a precise location when one does not have a detailed map? :)"<br /><br />Seems trollish, but a simple distinction can be made between (1) player-made maps during exploration from verbal descriptions, and (2) DM-made battlemaps laid out during combat encounters.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68477327253962399982010-02-20T12:20:21.943-05:002010-02-20T12:20:21.943-05:00I'm an old schooler DM who stopped playing in ...I'm an old schooler DM who stopped playing in the mid 80's. My players were religious about exacting maps as well.<br /><br />Over the years I've mused as well over the other extreme: a blank sheet of paper and just general descriptions of rooms and hallways. This discussion prompted me to do a quick search on ancient secret doors. At a glance, it seems that most secret doors are concealed behind furniture or statues, or are built into features affixed to the wall, e.g., a bas relief or a column.<br /><br />So, in defense of sloppy mapping, secret doors could rely on a room's accoutrements to conceal a door rather than relative positioning on a map to encourage discovery by the players.<br /><br />I also wonder if a dungeon designer could use the principle of sloppy mapping to his advantage. Like creating a layout which leads the players to mistakenly believe that room B they are entering is the same as room A they had visited previously.<br /><br />It seems like sloppy mapping is an area ripe for creative exploration by DMs and dungeon designers.Todd A. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16177477114706281373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41639764254201323642010-02-20T11:44:16.750-05:002010-02-20T11:44:16.750-05:00MX,
In the case of very strange room shapes -- us...MX,<br /><br />In the case of very strange room shapes -- usually caverns -- I just give a rough description of the rough "it's an irregularly shaped 40-by-50 room, with openings in the northwest and southeast corners" description. If the characters want anything more specific and detailed than that, I give the mapper help but it takes extra time and I roll for wandering monsters while it's happening, as well as increasing the chance for surprise.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64272285240385611422010-02-20T11:39:51.762-05:002010-02-20T11:39:51.762-05:00As a gamer caught between the old and new schools,...As a gamer caught between the old and new schools, I have one question for the grognards: How does one handle some of the bizarre room shapes in early dungeons?<br /><br />For example, look at B1, Upper level, rooms III, X, XXXI, and XXXIII. For another example, look at the entire lower level. And don't get me started on the Caves of Chaos...MXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02839750340785203625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86802928061645562972010-02-20T11:38:34.009-05:002010-02-20T11:38:34.009-05:00Sure, it makes things easier for the mapper, but r...<i>Sure, it makes things easier for the mapper, but realistically how common would graph paper be in a pseudo-medieval setting?</i><br /><br>More power to anyone who wants to take that approach, but it's not one I can get behind. Why stop at graph paper? Why should the mapper be allowed to use a pencil? They're not medieval either. <br /><br />I appreciate the desire for verisimilitude, I really do, and I've occasionally indulged in it myself, but it's not something that much appeals to me these days.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41952814965772350612010-02-20T10:51:55.389-05:002010-02-20T10:51:55.389-05:00Thank you for the blog post! Interesting and info...Thank you for the blog post! Interesting and informative.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116795932377593506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49767702689223791042010-02-20T10:31:25.706-05:002010-02-20T10:31:25.706-05:00Does everyone let their mappers use graph paper?
...Does everyone let their mappers use graph paper?<br /><br />Sure, it makes things easier for the mapper, but realistically how common would graph paper be in a pseudo-medieval setting?Knightskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08397391662639446678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78825693309494634372010-02-20T07:46:26.438-05:002010-02-20T07:46:26.438-05:00> immediately fall into an old-school desire fo...> immediately fall into an old-school desire for a perfectly measured and well-drawn map.<br /><br />"Old-school desire"? :)<br /><br />Methinks that leads to a somewhat confused conclusion if detailed /mapping/ is an inherent OS trait whilst detailed, strategic /placing/ of one's characters (for combat, in particular) is still something to be eschewed as being new-school 3e/4e.<br />Pray tell, how does one place characters in a precise location when one does not have a detailed map? :)irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89914680289691414122010-02-20T02:22:05.244-05:002010-02-20T02:22:05.244-05:00"However, if the characters deduce, based on ..."However, if the characters deduce, based on the layout of the map, that a secret door or trap or whatever is likely in a particular area, I either up their chances of finding it considerably (1-4 on 1D6, for example) or dispense with a roll entirely."<br /><br />Also definitely agree with that. My game margin notes say "Following a clue, riddle, or suggestive map adds +1 or 2 to secret doors."<br /><br />I've been interested to see brand-new players (like my girlfriend) immediately fall into an old-school desire for a perfectly measured and well-drawn map. I tried to soft-pedal it and not give suggestions one way or the other, but every 10-ft square she wants to see correct. She's an artist, so maybe that biases things.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87425345983321603362010-02-20T01:49:05.577-05:002010-02-20T01:49:05.577-05:00I remember back in the early 80's when I start...I remember back in the early 80's when I started. You wouldn't think of going into a dungeon without at least one mapper.<br /><br />I remember going to the second level of Joe's dungeon one night. After the game I went to a friend's place (he couldn't make it to the game). He asked what we'd done, and when I told him I'd mapped part of Joe's second level, he demanded to see the map and wouldn't say another word until he'd updated his map with my new info!<br /><br />That's the way it used to be, and that's the way it ought to be.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69882833609629027262010-02-20T00:42:23.462-05:002010-02-20T00:42:23.462-05:00That's pretty much how I do it.
And th epoint...That's pretty much how I do it.<br /><br />And th epoint about mapping offering giving a "strategic" element is dead on.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35803746403947315222010-02-20T00:23:53.112-05:002010-02-20T00:23:53.112-05:00"To my way of thinking, using a hand-drawn ma..."To my way of thinking, using a hand-drawn map to figure out aspects of the dungeon's layout ought to be rewarded. Moreover, OD&D's extremely slim chances of finding secret doors only makes sense if you assume it represents random shots in the dark rather than informed investigation."<br /><br />Quite right, James.<br /><br />I sometimes struggle with spacial vocabulary as well. Fortunately my group is also blessed with a patient and skilled mapper.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00862556389958594140noreply@blogger.com