tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7116168473215211049..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Necromancer Games UpdateJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19839078030119103832009-07-24T14:56:49.368-04:002009-07-24T14:56:49.368-04:00@Melan:
4e, if anything, was successful at refocu...@Melan:<br /><br /><i>4e, if anything, was successful at refocusing the brand towards a common play experience that supports and encourages an exclusive dedication... instead of a loose network of baseline rules, you have a network of digital content, regular support, the RPGA and so on, and if you want to enjoy the externalities, you'd better not stray too far from the formula. But if you are in, and you like that sort of thing, you will have a helluva lot of fun.</i><br /><br />Thank you! This is the most cogent thing I've read in response to this post. All of the talk about 4e tanking or not tanking is irrelevant, particularly in the absence of evidence and facts. Why would Clark be trying so hard to tie his company to a product that was tanking? <br /><br />Distributors and RPG publishers have frequently had a difficult relationship. Dig up one of the Ken Hite interviews from Paul Tevis's <i>Have Games, Will Travel</i> podcast, he goes to great lengths in explaining (and complaining about)this.santinj@https://www.blogger.com/profile/10130263877410085300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-92147758246486924572009-06-21T20:23:49.743-04:002009-06-21T20:23:49.743-04:00I've been chuckling actually. Necromancer game...I've been chuckling actually. Necromancer games has been Wizard's biggest cheerleader duirngthe 4e run up and GSL supporter, and the fact he really cant due to the GSL is ironically funny.carmachuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06037584604296331790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68821871301579239222009-06-20T11:46:27.569-04:002009-06-20T11:46:27.569-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dan of Earthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957424338566461756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31855454173355700912009-06-20T04:37:01.136-04:002009-06-20T04:37:01.136-04:00Dan:
"It's weird to me that no one can be...Dan:<br />"It's weird to me that no one can believe that 4e is tanking"<br /><br />I can believe sales are below expectations and that conversion of existing players to 4e is much lower than desired. I do think 4e has brought in a large number of new players, though probably less than 3e did in its first year. And I expect it's making a profit, hence 'not tanking'.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28790178298043954762009-06-20T04:21:18.817-04:002009-06-20T04:21:18.817-04:00JM:
"I think part of it is that LL is very fa...JM:<br />"I think part of it is that LL is very faithful to its inspiration and, for many gamers of a certain vintage, Moldvay/Cook will always be the version of D&D with which they're most comfortable"<br /><br />Not in my case though - back in the day (ca 1985) I went straight from Fighting Fantasy to 1e AD&D. I never played Moldvay, though ca 1990 some family friends gave me a copy they'd found in a car book sale, it sat in my collection largely unread for 15 years. I first ran a Moldvay based PBEM ca 2005 or so, and found it an excellent system, and a wonderfully written book.<br /><br />So, my love of LL is not based on nostalgia at all. I don't even feel nostalgic for 1e really, though I refer to the MM & DMG a fair bit I have little desire to play the game per se. Especially when OSRIC is a much better presented version.<br /><br />I think Moldvay Basic, and now LL, just 'get it right'. Mentzer's BECM gets it right too, albeit with a different sort of atmosphere. A lot of it is that these systems/versions are so simple and well presented that the rules just fade into the background during play; ad hoc ruling is efortless and immersion is easy.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38357649189149739172009-06-20T03:46:40.739-04:002009-06-20T03:46:40.739-04:00I would be very surprised if 4e was "tanking&...I would be very surprised if 4e was "tanking". Underperforming, probably. Playing to a safe but smaller customer base, yes. Being slowly eroded by MMORPGs, almost certainly (although there is no fight here; WOW has already won, won, and won). Tanking is quite different. If it happens, it will happen after a long death spiral - 6-8 years from now, maybe; slow erosion and then a sudden and violent collapse.<br /><br />That said... I have posted it before and I will post it again; I believe there is a sort of cultural shift towards carefully tested, carefully vetted official products, while there is very little interest in 3rd party alternatives today. The scene, the spirit of roleplaying is different than the early 2000s, and those who think in early 2000s ways will fall by the wayside.<br /><br />4e, if anything, was successful at refocusing the brand towards a common play experience that supports and encourages an exclusive dedication... instead of a loose network of baseline rules, you have a network of digital content, regular support, the RPGA and so on, and if you want to enjoy the externalities, you'd better not stray too far from the formula. But if you are in, and you like that sort of thing, you will have a helluva lot of fun.<br /><br />Games Workshop did this to their miniature games, and they have a customer base that is<br />1) rejuvenated every few years by shedding old fans and capturing new ones;<br />2) independent of and even isolated from the rest of the miniatures hobby;<br />3) engineered to provide a highly focused form of fun to the customer base;<br />4) user friendly enough to allow new recruits but complicated enough to accommodate hardcore goobers.<br /><br />Good? Bad? These are not relevant categories. Profitable is a relevant category. (Although GW has suffered some losses as of late - and the culprits? Why, computer games!)Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22379620630207098832009-06-20T03:42:49.309-04:002009-06-20T03:42:49.309-04:00Lots of good points in this thread.Lots of good points in this thread.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40202328475567718352009-06-20T01:08:32.145-04:002009-06-20T01:08:32.145-04:00That said, if instead Hasbro sees that all these &...<i>That said, if instead Hasbro sees that all these "retro" versions of D&D have a large market that can be exploited, perhaps they will start publishing the old stuff again (yeah, right). I can only hope...but realistically, the market for rpgs is so small, they might just say f it.</i><br /><br />I would be more inclined to believe that Hasbro will attempt to sue all the retroclones out of existence, despite the OGL or any other license.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6187608445974649232009-06-20T00:12:45.271-04:002009-06-20T00:12:45.271-04:00Remember Scott Rouse at one time reported that the...<i>Remember Scott Rouse at one time reported that they spent over 1 million dollars to develop 4e!! Can you believe that? It boggles my mind.</i><br /><br />I can easily believe it. <br /><br />Assume each of the core books required about 3 people working on them for about a year total. That's 9 full-time people right there. Then you have Rouse, his assistant, execs, layout people, marketing people, artists etc. etc. It's easy to believe that 4e took about 20 person-years to get out the door, and even if you assume a low figure for salaries + benefits + other costs (ads, etc) that's a million dollars right there.<br /><br />DDI has probably kept a team of developers busy for a couple of years--there's another 1 or 2 million dollars there as well.Kevin Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963383059386077519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46774693964616643652009-06-19T22:45:46.367-04:002009-06-19T22:45:46.367-04:00Sure 4th is not a total success. That was the clea...Sure 4th is not a total success. That was the clear as soon as Pathfinder was announced. Hasbro wanted more than what they are getting, but to say that means it's tanking is overstating it.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27179948030460373782009-06-19T22:07:57.581-04:002009-06-19T22:07:57.581-04:00My prediction is that WoTC re-packages some of the...My prediction is that WoTC re-packages some of their older material. 'D&D Classic' or something like that. -That's my conspiracy theory of why the pulled the PDFs.<br /><br />I don't think 4E is tanking, but I am sure it's underwhelming WotC and Hasbro in particular. It was a bold move. It has an audience, but it is another beast entirely. I bet they'll plop something down right in our laps at some point.<br /><br />And then we will splinter again. Some will embrace D&D classic, some will resent the move. ...Storm's comin' pa.<br /><br />That's my take, anyway.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49501778250197610932009-06-19T21:44:57.613-04:002009-06-19T21:44:57.613-04:00It's weird to me that no one can believe that ...It's weird to me that no one can believe that 4e is tanking (I think some people just don't want to consider it). It's true we have no sales data, but I've heard now from more than one reliable source that it isn't doing well. Sure, it's probably selling way way more than any other RPG, but that could be peanuts to Hasbro. It's all relative. Remember Scott Rouse at one time reported that they spent over 1 million dollars to develop 4e!! Can you believe that? It boggles my mind. Set some obsessed nerd like me in front of a keyboard and I could crank that out in just a few months for cheap. If 4e isn't selling well in stores, and this is what's been reported by retailers, and distributors are not really interested, then yes 4e has tanked. I really do believe that WoTC pulling PDFs had more to do with trying to get brick n' mortar stores more interested in selling 4e than it had to do with piracy. For them, PDF sales were not even a drop in the bucket, and some move had to be made to try to explain why sales suck. Many retailers don't like PDF competition, so the math is pretty simple all things considered.Dan of Earthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957424338566461756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38399892406205206922009-06-19T21:26:05.933-04:002009-06-19T21:26:05.933-04:00Let's be perfectly honest with each other abou...Let's be perfectly honest with each other about this: 4th edition tanking would kill off this hobby. Sure, there would be all the clones and indie rpgs and whatever, but the largest publishers make the majority of their money pumping out "compatible" stuff for D&D, which means 4th edition. If Hasbro decides to can D&D, the hobby will go the way of the dodo, with the "old guard" slowly dying off. You cannot tell me that any of us has the remotest chance of bringing in enough new players should D&D cease to be published.<br /><br />That said, if instead Hasbro sees that all these "retro" versions of D&D have a large market that can be exploited, perhaps they will start publishing the old stuff again (yeah, right). I can only hope...but realistically, the market for rpgs is so small, they might just say f it.<br /><br />On a more positive note, I think LL should be the flagship product for the retro movement.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06596247660364673313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10799872652752406512009-06-19T20:52:25.013-04:002009-06-19T20:52:25.013-04:00Sigh. Blogger swallowed my first well thought out ...Sigh. Blogger swallowed my first well thought out comment.<br /><br />I find it really amazing that anyone thinks 4th ed is tanking! It's almost as amazing that Clark seem to believe WotC <i>wants</i> third party support!!<br /><br />Look at how they have handled it, from the beginning. First there was a stiff fee, which <i>everyone</i>balked at! Then there was a licence which had limitations which was strongly indicating that they wanted to weed out the licensees which wasn't going to agree to be just extensions of the will of the Wizards. <br /><br />Did anyone still believed they really wanted, and embraced, third party support? <br /><br />Now look at how they have planned their products. PHB 1, 2, 3 etc? Where's the space for third party support? Modules is the only niche, and the one with the slimmest profit margins. <br /><br />Necromancer Games will have to jump on Pathfinder the hour it's published, or they might as well close shop.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67736208691627392452009-06-19T20:24:41.603-04:002009-06-19T20:24:41.603-04:00Matt said: "What interested me a lot was the ...Matt said: "What interested me a lot was the connection between OBS and print on demand. What's that about? OBS does pdfs. (OBS being One Bookshelf, the owner of RPGNow, RPGDriveThru, etc). Maybe I misread, but it seemed like the montion of POD was connected with OBS."<br /><br />At one time, a few years back, RPGNow offered to print a publisher's products via Lulu (I believe it was through them--someone correct me if I'm wrong). I ordered a couple copies of something I wrote for Adamant using this feature and the print products turned out quite well. Whether that feature still exists I know not (although you'd think I would as an OBS publisher).Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09895162509374846630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2995544841292356802009-06-19T17:53:21.925-04:002009-06-19T17:53:21.925-04:00JM said:
"I suspect you're right, but, i...JM said:<br /><br />"I suspect you're right, but, in my opinion WotC's marketing of 4e and the GSL are two facets of the same ultimate strategy, one that ultimately marginalizes or outright shuts out a lot of third party support for the game."<br /><br />I agree with you on this, and also would add that the DDI's proprietary nature freezes out 3pp's as well.Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80535839631891329052009-06-19T17:21:20.607-04:002009-06-19T17:21:20.607-04:00Necromancer should focus on producing products com...Necromancer should focus on producing products compatible with S&W and LL! :)Akrasiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08734103159691571156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24360814005341583532009-06-19T17:20:56.788-04:002009-06-19T17:20:56.788-04:00I can't see any evidence of 4E tanking. I thin...I can't see any evidence of 4E tanking. I think Clark's decision is based more on the difficulty of getting product into to print and onto shelves.<br /><br />Its well known that Necro is a side project for both of its owners, not a full time job. The hoops that need to be jumped through to get back into the game may simply be too much for them. In the d20 heyday it was easy for them to get hooked up with White Wolf, Kenzer, etc and let them handle the headaches of printing and distributing, but there's just not that big a variety of companies out there looking to sponsor 4E product in any great capacity. Maybe Goodman or Mongoose. <br /><br />I'd welcome some osr-compatible versions of the first few necro modules, like Rappan Athuk, but I'm not expecting anything like that to happen.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01682401446176099294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72055323013856393132009-06-19T16:59:01.936-04:002009-06-19T16:59:01.936-04:00Couple of things:
Dan, how much is LL going to be...Couple of things:<br /><br />Dan, how much is LL going to be retailing for? This is still an unresolved issue for me on S&W.<br /><br />What interested me a lot was the connection between OBS and print on demand. What's that about? OBS does pdfs. (OBS being One Bookshelf, the owner of RPGNow, RPGDriveThru, etc). Maybe I misread, but it seemed like the montion of POD was connected with OBS.Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83139471141658123772009-06-19T16:35:02.382-04:002009-06-19T16:35:02.382-04:00I'm not sure exactly why LL just works so well...<i>I'm not sure exactly why LL just works so well and feels so right.</i><br /><br>I think part of it is that LL is very faithful to its inspiration and, for many gamers of a certain vintage, Moldvay/Cook will always be <i>the</i> version of <i>D&D</i> with which they're most comfortable. Those two elements combine and what you get is an absolutely terrific game that, even though I am currently playing S&W quite happily, nevertheless has a strong appeal for me.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30983446282558650872009-06-19T16:23:55.612-04:002009-06-19T16:23:55.612-04:00I don't think 4e is tanking, exactly, though a...I don't think 4e is tanking, exactly, though a poll of over a thousand people on ENW indicated very low 3e to 4e conversion by the player base there, around 40%. I GM at the London D&D Meetup, and 4e is popular, by far the most commonly played game - OTOH there is an unmet demand for other games, I think. People tend to run & play 4e because it's what's expected, though it's also a fun game in its own right and I will be trying my hand at running it next month - using a converted Nec 3e module, Vault of Larin Karr.<br /><br />One thing about 4e - buying the books seems pointless, when the DDI gives you everything much more practically, at a better price. I bought the DMG PHB & MM but I don't intend to buy anything else from WoTC now they've pulled pdf sales.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69314465153523777122009-06-19T16:17:36.865-04:002009-06-19T16:17:36.865-04:00I'm using the WoHF box set for my online Labyr...I'm using the WoHF box set for my online Labyrinth Lord weekly chat game - they make a great match! :-)<br /><br />I'm not sure exactly why LL just works so well and feels so right. I tried Wilderlands with Castles & Crusades, and it never really 'took off' the way my LL games have, especially this current one. Something to do with the genius of both Tom Moldvay and Dan, I think.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75757160037428969112009-06-19T15:43:52.639-04:002009-06-19T15:43:52.639-04:00Retailers are less than excited about 4E supplemen...<i>Retailers are less than excited about 4E supplemental material. Distributors even less so. Print partners still less excited.</i><br /><br />I thought this was the most significant part of the post. Retailers aren't interested in 4e supplemental material...<br /><br />How does that compare to what they ARE interested in?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28447466275596587092009-06-19T15:26:20.193-04:002009-06-19T15:26:20.193-04:00Poor WOTC. The beancounters elected to move them f...Poor WOTC. The beancounters elected to move them from the winning to the losing side of the proprietary-vs.-open source model of distribution and licensing for the release of 4E. I'm <i>still</i> staggered by the sheer illogic of such a move. A classic instance of knee-jerk protectionism.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27477642259965839812009-06-19T15:01:55.713-04:002009-06-19T15:01:55.713-04:00I honestly don't buy any of the talk that &quo...I honestly don't buy any of the talk that "4e is tanking" there is no empirical evidence for it.<br /><br />That beign said, this is blow since I do really like Necromancer Games. <br />Clark has said in the past, on the old OGL publishers mailing list, that he wouldn't touch OSRIC. That is too bad really, since it does seem like a good way to get his "1st Editon feel" philosophy out there. <br /><br />I wish him the best and hope its works out well for Necromancer Games.Timothy S. Brannanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923526503305233715noreply@blogger.com