tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7216611629304285419..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: REVIEW: Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works (Part III of III)James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63625186936067991202012-01-05T15:39:33.569-05:002012-01-05T15:39:33.569-05:00Thanks for the great review, James.
I was tempted...Thanks for the great review, James.<br /><br />I was tempted to buy this on eBay for $400, but I think I'll give it a miss. For a collector's item, I can spend some crazy money, but not THAT much.<br /><br />Unfortunately, we may never see the dungeon ever published now... it doesn't look like Gygax Games is doing a thing.Adamantyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14962009901412877763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66052405047818304892010-09-29T19:07:00.374-04:002010-09-29T19:07:00.374-04:00Hey I'm content with reconstructing the castle...Hey I'm content with reconstructing the castle this way - I think it'll make for much of the spirit of what the castle should have been : <br /><br />CZ:UW and for the dungeons below Level 2, The amazing fan piece known as "WG13 The Castle of the Mad Archmage." <br /><br />Along with RJK's The Original Bottle City and The Living Room (when they're appropriately encountered) and perhaps the EX1 and EX2 pieces if needed.<br /><br />Talk about integration.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10786200282354108091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1177500511806768682009-01-11T15:09:00.000-05:002009-01-11T15:09:00.000-05:00I didn't come to D&D until 1989. A few mon...I didn't come to D&D until 1989. A few months after I first started slinging dice, I heard about Castle Greyhawk. The hints and rumors of its existence filled my imagination and I went looking for it... and looking for it... and looking for it...<BR/><BR/>And, of course, I never found it.<BR/><BR/>The EX modules are legitimate artifacts from that campaign, but they are antithetical counterpoints to it. They are expressly a non-representative sampling.<BR/><BR/>The actual CASTLE GREYHAWK product, of course, is a joke.<BR/><BR/>GREYHAWK RUINS is an excellent product, but it's not actually the Castle.<BR/><BR/>And so it goes.<BR/><BR/>THE UPPER WORKS join these previous failed efforts. It is similar to the EX products in mind -- bearing a stamp of authenticity, but being almost tangential to what is truly desired: The dungeons beneath the castle.<BR/><BR/>There's part of me that has come to believe it might be better to never know what those dungeons were truly like. They are a cipher onto which we write our own vision.<BR/><BR/>But, OTOH, I would still dearly like to see it.<BR/><BR/>If I had my druthers, this is what I would like to see: Take Gygax's notes and produce a finished, polished product. This would almost certainly need to be a gestalt of some sort, but it should be as faithful as possible while still being a finished, usable product.<BR/><BR/>But, as part of that product, scan in Gygax's original notes and maps. Package them on a CD. Include it in the product.<BR/><BR/>If Gygax were still alive, I wouldn't necessarily advocate for the release of those notes. But we've tragically lost his bright light.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13334862470610945492009-01-03T06:45:00.000-05:002009-01-03T06:45:00.000-05:00Ah, okay. I never saw that interview. I'm al...Ah, okay. I never saw that interview. I'm also starting to remember some of these discussions he was having about this. <BR/>I do remember him chastising me a bit when I suggested that Rob might not want to deal with dual stats in Lejendary Adventures mode. Of course he never went in that direction).<BR/><BR/>I still kind of wonder why Gary chose to look back on the old D&D scenario, since he sort of moved on.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89078360356434610012009-01-02T21:59:00.000-05:002009-01-02T21:59:00.000-05:00I speculate that Gary did this more or less as a f...<I>I speculate that Gary did this more or less as a favor to the Trolls. I believe Steve came up with the idea of C&C, and pitched it to Gary. To be good in the market, C&C would need some endorsement, and what better way than Castle Zagyg, Gary's unwritten "legend". I think Gary agreed in part because he wanted some elements of 1st Edition AD&D or OD&D to survive.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you are completely off base here. Gygax and Kuntz definitely pitched <I>Castle Zagyg</I> to more than one company, including <I>Kenzer</I>. Prior to the advent of C&C, Gygax was considering D20 or a "generic system". His thoughts on the subject appear in the above referenced issue of OD&Dities, in the wake of a lengthy two part interview.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62198002505942976372009-01-02T15:09:00.000-05:002009-01-02T15:09:00.000-05:00Being one who assisted (in minor ways) Gary with m...Being one who assisted (in minor ways) Gary with many of his projects, and also a friend, I always kind of wondered why Gary chose to "go back" to Castle (Greyhawk). I never really discussed this with him at length.<BR/><BR/>It's sort of a different direction, especially if you've studied Gary Gygax's creations over the years. Gary was never really one to look "backward". After he lost control of TSR, he worked on a new game. When he lost ownership of THAT game he moved on yet again. He would always reinvent himself, going so far as to change actual terminology for what is has become the de facto common nomenclature for fantasy games--for instance, PCs are "Heroic Personages" in DJ, "Avatars" in LA. <BR/><BR/>Granted, there were some "dreams" of this. He made mention of Dunfalcon and some hints, but AFAIK he was never really serious about this, not until around 2003 or 2004 or so. There was talk of reunion with WoTC, but that was really only apparent with Atkinson at WoTC and his departure, as well as Gary's growing dislike for the new d20 engine put a fork in that plan. As much as fans wanted Gary back with D&D and Greyhawk, it wasn't really something he was too interested in.<BR/><BR/>I'm only speculating here as to his motivations, so I'm just trying to make and educated guess here--I could be off base by a lot, so I'm prefacing it with "caution"--because I know his feelings on a lot of other subjects.<BR/><BR/>I speculate that Gary did this more or less as a favor to the Trolls. I believe Steve came up with the idea of C&C, and pitched it to Gary. To be good in the market, C&C would need some endorsement, and what better way than Castle Zagyg, Gary's unwritten "legend". I think Gary agreed in part because he wanted some elements of 1st Edition AD&D or OD&D to survive.<BR/><BR/>However, there were two things Gary couldn't predict. First of all, he didn't realize that his own health would start hurting. After the Stroke and Heart Attack (which, if I remember correctly, I think happened a few months after CZ was solicited), Gary had to take it easy. He still had his faculties and intellect, but he did reduce his output greatly, at least to my knowledge. I mean, he even had to give up being a weekly Game Master at the table.<BR/><BR/>Then Rob left the project suddenly which hurt it. I'm pretty sure Gary wouldn't have agreed to the project if he had thought Rob would cancel on him. Gary still had a lot of knowledge about the castle, and could have slogged on faster if he didn't have to cut down his output, but after that Gary really needed a co-writer to get this project on schedule.<BR/><BR/>Some fans might have thought it would be okay for Gary to cancel the project. However, Gary had a sense of honor and duty and I doubt he would cancel after the big solicitation, as it would be a blow to TLG. It would also make it seem like Rob was the "brains" behind it, something Gary would protest and would not be true.<BR/><BR/>I was involved in Yggsburg and I saw and agreed with Gary felt it was necessary because CZ needed a "home base", so I disagree with the criticism about Yggsburg being a "distraction". I do think the expansion wasn't really necessary--maybe it was a way to keep products coming because development of the castle would take time. <BR/><BR/>Ironically, I wasn't really involved in Upper Works because (a) I was limited in time and wanted to help Gary with LA instead, since I felt that was his real passion, (b) I felt CZ would have less pure EGG through the use of co-writers.<BR/><BR/>I do know Gary didn't want this to be a "nostalgia" project and I doubt he would have wanted the format being suggested here.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what will become of Castle Zagyg now. Unlike LA, which has unpublished work that just needs minor edits, I suspect the CZ product would need a lot of fleshing out. <BR/><BR/>One thing people haven't considered is that maybe Castle Zagyg might end up becoming something like a computer game. Gary had always wanted to have a computer game published--he spent a lot of time on Hunters of Ralk, which was never published due to Cyberdreams going under. LA was supposed to be turned into a MMORPG, but it fell down under the massive competition in that development arena. (I don't count ToEE, since while it was faithful to the original dungeon, it wasn't something that directly benefited Gary).<BR/><BR/>I could see with renewed interest after Gary's death for CZ to be published as a computer game with perhaps LA rules used. While the Grognards might scream and gnash at this prospect--I can say something like this would be within the boundaries of "what Gary wanted", as he always wanted to be able to use LA in CZ, as well as get a computer game developed.<BR/><BR/>I'm almost certain it's not gonna get sold back to WoTC or use 4e rules.<BR/><BR/>--JRTJRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43486998097009447912008-12-30T20:15:00.000-05:002008-12-30T20:15:00.000-05:00My difficulty is that I'm not quite sure what the ...<I>My difficulty is that I'm not quite sure what the purposes of TUW were.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I guess my view of the project may be skewed from hanging out on the <I>Troll Lord Games</I> forums and what I read in the <I>Yggsburgh</I> campaign setting and <I>Dark Chateau</I>, but it always seemed fairly clear to me that the purpose was to produce a playable version of <I>Castle Greyhawk</I>. Oblique references to the <I>Greyhawk</I> campaign setting and insights into traditional dungeon crawling always seemed incidental to me.<BR/><BR/>I do not think it was ever more complex than that, and the finished product seems entirely in keeping with the first rumours of the project back in <I>OD&Dities</I> #10 (2003, pp. 45-6).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76742037225564078532008-12-30T18:26:00.000-05:002008-12-30T18:26:00.000-05:00Such material would be of academic interest, but I...<I>Such material would be of academic interest, but I think conflating it with the purposes of this product is a mistake.</I><BR/><BR/>My difficulty is that I'm not quite sure what the purposes of TUW were. As I said above, it's neither fish nor fowl and I think that makes it feel more muddled than it ought to. I don't think it's a great intro product and it's certainly not as good an evocation of the old school as I'd have expected, never mind a glimpse into the history of the hobby. Had TUW been more clear about its purposes, I might have been more willing to accept it for what it is. Problem is I can't figure out just what it is, thus my disappointment in it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85829633411974661102008-12-29T23:46:00.000-05:002008-12-29T23:46:00.000-05:00It'd be an invaluable historical document from one...<I>It'd be an invaluable historical document from one of the oldest RPG campaigns and would provide some insights into the mind of one of the co-creators of the game. I'd love to see Dave Arneson's notes for Blackmoor Castle for the same reason. I can understand that this isn't to everyone's taste, but surely you can see the value in this approach.</I><BR/><BR/>I think there would be very little to be gained for running the <I>Castle Zagyg/Greyhawk</I> product. Such material would be of academic interest, but I think conflating it with the purposes of this product is a mistake.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37680080365265069202008-12-29T23:05:00.000-05:002008-12-29T23:05:00.000-05:00I just do not see what people expect to get out of...<I>I just do not see what people expect to get out of the notes, apart from an index against which to judge future incarnations, not withstanding that most of the spirit of the dungeon was largely in his head and the way he ran it.</I><BR/><BR/>It'd be an invaluable historical document from one of the oldest RPG campaigns and would provide some insights into the mind of one of the co-creators of the game. I'd love to see Dave Arneson's notes for Blackmoor Castle for the same reason. I can understand that this isn't to everyone's taste, but surely you can see the value in this approach.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80130466565373826672008-12-29T22:31:00.000-05:002008-12-29T22:31:00.000-05:00I don't think it's unreasonable to expect we'd see...<I>I don't think it's unreasonable to expect we'd see a greater relationship to Castle Greyhawk than we got. If all Gary and TLG intended to produce was a wholly new Gygaxian dungeoncrawl, that'd have been fine with me. But the name chosen was chosen to evoke the glories of the Lake Geneva campaign and its famous megadungeon. It was a calculated attempt to play on nostalgia and the hopes of gamers who've been waiting for nearly 30 years to get the goods on Castle Greyhawk. That's where my disappointment comes from and it's why I feel TUW was less than it could/should have been.</I><BR/><BR/>I dunno, I think this is kind of missing the point. What we got was the first installment of something analogous to what we would have gotten when Gygax first started making promises back in the hay day of AD&D. He never promised his notes, and only ever planned to follow through on the original proposition [i.e. to create a <I>Castle Greyhawk</I> product].<BR/><BR/>Yeah, it is hugely disappointing that he died before he could complete this project (let alone that he couldn't have been the sole author if he had lived, which would have been the ideal), but I am not really sure why that should reflect on this product; surely, that is a complaint to be made against the product line?<BR/><BR/>I just do not see what people expect to get out of the notes, apart from an index against which to judge future incarnations, not withstanding that most of the spirit of the dungeon was largely in his head and the way he ran it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27144852651900954632008-12-29T22:06:00.000-05:002008-12-29T22:06:00.000-05:00I am glad I have the product, I am glad that I ahv...<I>I am glad I have the product, I am glad that I ahve a bit of history in my hands, I am glad the Troll Lords finally published it, but at the same time I can not shake the feeling that it is a small product, when it should have been an awesome product.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed. I think I feel much worse about TUW than I might otherwise have had there been a serious prospect of our ever seeing more of the dungeon. As it stands now, <I>this is it</I>. This is all we'll ever see and that knowledge, combined with the product's other shortcomings, large and small, contribute powerfully to my feeling of dissatisfaction. I don't think TUW is a terrible product, but it's certainly less brilliant than it had every reason to be and that's a real pity.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76063242077115516772008-12-29T22:03:00.000-05:002008-12-29T22:03:00.000-05:00I received CZ: TUW as a holiday gift, and I will t...<I>I received CZ: TUW as a holiday gift, and I will treasure it - as a collector's piece, the closest we have yet come to seeing the Great DM's megadungeon. I can guarantee, however, that it will never see play at our game table, and in that fact I feel a sense of loss and sadness.</I><BR/><BR/>That's fairly close to how I feel about it, right down to the sense of loss and sadness. As I said above, there are flashes of brilliance in TUW, as well as some true Gygaxian goodness, but there's not enough of either and you have to dig through a lot of material that just doesn't excite me to get to it. That didn't have to be the case and I'm disappointed that it is.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35461910873866740992008-12-29T22:01:00.000-05:002008-12-29T22:01:00.000-05:00I think though that the Castle Zagyg series must b...<I>I think though that the Castle Zagyg series must be accounted a failure both from the grognard perspective and from that of the modern C&C GM. Neither interest was served by a series that took far too long and was always planned to go into far too much detail, from a publisher without the resources to bring it to completion.</I><BR/><BR/>That's the gist of it for me. It's a "neither fish nor fowl" kind of product and I'm just not sure for whom it was written. The presentation seems to be aimed more at newcomers, while the name for the line seems to have been an attempt to draw in old timers looking to get a peek into the legendary dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk. In the end, we got not enough of either, which is a real pity, because there are flashes of brilliance in TUW that made me wish there'd been better management of the entire project.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32936628062752524702008-12-29T21:58:00.000-05:002008-12-29T21:58:00.000-05:00This stuff about wanting wanting access to his "or...<I>This stuff about wanting wanting access to his "original notes", just leaves me cold. If Gygax had wanted the public to have access to them, we already would. From the standpoint of a fellow game master, I can appreciate the desire to retain the mystery, and I think I prefer it that way.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that's a fair comment; I can't really argue against your perspective. I can only say that, given that this product included the words "Castle Zagyg," I don't think it's unreasonable to expect we'd see a greater relationship to Castle Greyhawk than we got. If all Gary and TLG intended to produce was a wholly new Gygaxian dungeoncrawl, that'd have been fine with me. But the name chosen was chosen to evoke the glories of the Lake Geneva campaign and its famous megadungeon. It was a calculated attempt to play on nostalgia and the hopes of gamers who've been waiting for nearly 30 years to get the goods on Castle Greyhawk. That's where my disappointment comes from and it's why I feel TUW was less than it could/should have been.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10014911437537997172008-12-29T21:50:00.000-05:002008-12-29T21:50:00.000-05:00James,Good post as usual. We, the readers, can te...James,<BR/><BR/>Good post as usual. We, the readers, can tell that you put significant effort into what you do, and it is like a good cup of coffee in the morning. I can not say the same of this product.<BR/><BR/>First off, I do want to say that I appreciate what the Troll Lords do. I like the guys a lot, however, I do have to be a bit critical in my commentary of TUW. They have great ideas, it is just that their execution is a bit off. In general I agree with your comments. I do think your rating of 3.5 is a bit high, and would rate it at a 3. I agree with your assessment on the overall quality of the product, and that really leaves me with the feeling that they could have done more. I am ok with amaturish products, as long as they are small products, BUT this is not a small product, this is a flagship product, and I expect flagship quality. When I look at RARE from Necro, it is a solid product in terms of layout and design. JUST picking it up, one can tell that this is a quality product. They have poured in their love into this, and it shows. Now look at what Monte did with Ptolus. Now I realize that Monte's stuff is not for everyone, and that is fine, but you have to admire the quality (and love) that went into Ptolus. This is what a flagship product looks like. What makes this special is all the little things he did - the index, the side bars, the commentary about what happened in his campaigns, reference notes, color, etc...it just goes on and on. Can you imagine if Monte had teamed up with Gary and they put out CZ with the love and quality that went into Ptolus...wow! That would have been a really SPECIAL product. To me, this why the product missed the mark, and it should have been exceptional product. There was a historic opportunity here to seize the day and make a truly amazing product, but that is not to be. It feels like it was rushed, and after the number of years it was in development, that is a disappointment. I am glad I have the product, I am glad that I ahve a bit of history in my hands, I am glad the Troll Lords finally published it, but at the same time I can not shake the feeling that it is a small product, when it should have been an awesome product.Mr Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07502432352346301026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65585521158702991922008-12-29T16:55:00.000-05:002008-12-29T16:55:00.000-05:00I do think it might be interesting to read a revie...<I>I do think it might be interesting to read a review by someone who's a C&C player and intends to use it solely as the basis for a campaign using those rules.</I><BR/>I volunteer, if I can get my hands on a copy.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35196401786692697252008-12-29T15:01:00.000-05:002008-12-29T15:01:00.000-05:00I'll admit, I may be biased by my personal "old sc...I'll admit, I may be biased by my personal "old school" leanings, but I couldn't have put my own feelings regarding TLG's Castle Zagyg project into words any better than you have in this review. (And, to an extent, I agree with Geoffrey's idea of releasing unrefined maps and unedited notes, along with anecdotes/comments from original Castle Greyhawk players. Ideally, though, these would be an addendum to a more polished product, created with extensive help from those most familiar with Gary's mega-dungeon. This, hopefully, would make the product of interest to old farts like myself and those younger players who have less interest in such things.)<BR/><BR/>When I first read that TLG was planning to release Gary's megadungeon, my heart leapt and ached for the release - finally - of Castle Greyhawk as it should have been all these years. Then came Yggsburgh, and I grew less excited. ("Where's the Castle?!") That slow loss of excitement continued through the roller coaster of peripheral CZ releases and Gary's untimely passing; it finally expired with TLG's loss of the CZ license.<BR/><BR/>I received CZ: TUW as a holiday gift, and I will treasure it - as a collector's piece, the closest we have yet come to seeing the Great DM's megadungeon. I can guarantee, however, that it will never see play at our game table, and in that fact I feel a sense of loss and sadness.Christopher Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368794259249607299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29841591937384434492008-12-29T13:46:00.000-05:002008-12-29T13:46:00.000-05:00I've run a good bit of C&C and I think CZ:...I've run a good bit of C&C and I think CZ: Yggsburgh is a nice C&C campaign setting in its own right, though the 'Moat Gate' etc town expansions are severe overkill.<BR/><BR/>I think though that the Castle Zagyg series must be accounted a failure both from the grognard perspective and from that of the modern C&C GM. Neither interest was served by a series that took far too long and was always planned to go into far too much detail, from a publisher without the resources to bring it to completion. Necromancer or Green Ronin would have struggled to accomplish what TLG intended, from them it was hopeless. Mongoose or WoTC have the resources, but would have the business sense not to try, when a £20-£30 single product is a far more sensible approach.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32530756648242930352008-12-29T12:55:00.000-05:002008-12-29T12:55:00.000-05:00I have to admit I have next to no interest in acqu...I have to admit I have next to no interest in acquiring copies or abridged versions of Gygax's Castle <I>Castle Greyhawk</I> notes, material or bible. It just holds no interest for me at all beyond a passing scholarly one, which is not enough to command my attention in this instance.<BR/><BR/>A finished product designed by Gygax (and preferably developed and entirely authored by him) I might have bought to play, though ideally someone else would buy it and I would participate as a player.<BR/><BR/>This stuff about wanting wanting access to his "original notes", just leaves me cold. If Gygax had wanted the public to have access to them, we already would. From the standpoint of a fellow game master, I can appreciate the desire to retain the mystery, and I think I prefer it that way.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85441091938410633002008-12-29T11:47:00.000-05:002008-12-29T11:47:00.000-05:00I would personally have to agree with Mr. Gygax th...I would personally have to agree with Mr. Gygax that tailoring a product for a small segment of your most rabid hardcore fans at the expense of hobbyists in general is a big mistake.<BR/><BR/>Rob Kuntz's business model is perfect if you're talking about very narrow-interest collector's items intended to be sold at premium prices to a few hundred people at most.<BR/><BR/>Gary Gygax wanted something affordable, widely-distributed, and accessable, not a limited run museum piece for gaming scholars. I think this was a wise choice on his part.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57152952743173693622008-12-29T10:32:00.000-05:002008-12-29T10:32:00.000-05:00Andrea,You're certainly correct that the Castles &...Andrea,<BR/><BR/>You're certainly correct that the <I>Castles & Crusades</I> connection is one I overlook. Part of that is because I don't play the game myself. The other part is that, while it's true that TUW is presented as a <I>C&C</I> product, I'm sure TLG was counting on its garnering interest from players of other systems, especially old school <I>D&D</I>. That's why I bought it and I'm sure many others did as well. I do think it might be interesting to read a review by someone who's a <I>C&C</I> player and intends to use it solely as the basis for a campaign using those rules.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61147033079471977782008-12-29T10:11:00.000-05:002008-12-29T10:11:00.000-05:00I'd like to point out a different viewpoint fr...I'd like to point out a different viewpoint from which 'Upper Works' and entire CZ line can bee seen: as a setting and modules for C&C. I guess many people -like myself- bought them also (I wouldn't say only) as such. I really think C&C is the missing variable in your review and it explains a lot the specific direction the CZ line has taken, as opposed to the one you suggest. C&C isn't just a way to put out old school material (it's not OSRIC) but a game with its own personality, which is only partially old school. I happen to like it a lot (better than simply going back to play AD&D1) and in fact I first got interested in C&C and only later in CZ. My thought was simply "Cool! a setting for C&C by the Dungeon Master himself, with reminescences of Greyhawk".<BR/>When I bought Yggsburgh I was skeptical that the actual castle would ever see the light of day, but I bought it nevertheless because it was a nice "old schoolish" setting for C&C. The main flaw I see in UW, is that it is not the whole thing. But this is certainly independent from TLG's will!Andrea Roccihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15698978113775905706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70498186889546606072008-12-29T08:59:00.000-05:002008-12-29T08:59:00.000-05:00S'Mon said: I'm thinking about integrating [GH Ru...S'Mon said: <I>I'm thinking about integrating [GH Ruins] with TLG's Mouths of Madness for a Castle Greyhawk campaign. It occurs to me it ought to be integratable with Upper Works also (since it leaves the upper works undetailed), but I'm not sure that's worth the additional effort and expense. I'd be interested in any thoughts you have on compatibility of UW and GR.</I><BR/><BR/>Prior to the publication of CZ I started to design an upper work environs for my version of the Castle, and <A HREF="gh_castle_grodog_environs-draft_01_low.jpg" REL="nofollow">sketched out</A> something that might be able to accommodate as much GH Castle materials as possible. I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to try to incorporate the 3 towers of GH Ruins with a full Castle a la CZ:UW, but I do like the concept of using the best material from all of the sources to detail my own version of the Castle.<BR/><BR/>Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3088143256849767862008-12-29T07:52:00.000-05:002008-12-29T07:52:00.000-05:00Will you cry when Gygax Games announces they are r...<I>Will you cry when Gygax Games announces they are releasing Castle Gygax for 4ed?</I><BR/><BR/>Unless Gygax Games is working out a separate deal with WotC to be able to use Greyhawk-specific IP and exempt themselves from certain provisions of the GSL. the likelihood that any future Castle Zagyg publications will use 4e is slim to none.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com