tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post7696629879884885370..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Ouch!James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64426604427550182022011-09-20T18:44:24.435-04:002011-09-20T18:44:24.435-04:00re: the death of wargaming... since when did that ...re: the death of wargaming... since when did that happen? I'm pretty sure that wargames are going strong, *especially* relative to D&D.<br /><br />Advanced Squad Leader is still in print. GMT, Columbia Games, Academy Games and MMP are still churning out hex-and-chit product and suchlike and it is still selling. The top board game on Boardgame Geek for the whole year has been GMT's Twilight Struggle, which while not a hex-and-chit game is in fact a box-and-chit game. And I just picked up GMT's "Infidel", which is indeed the chit.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86173828005175379172011-09-18T13:03:47.303-04:002011-09-18T13:03:47.303-04:00I would say that the "life-long study of the ...I would say that the "life-long study of the text" is pretty true of any RPG. I've certainly never encountered a group of players who didn't debate the corner cases of their game's rules (or their own houserules) endlessly when they don't have a game running, it is the nature of the beast and the root cause of feature-creep in editions and supplements.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18792131572015626352011-09-16T21:47:07.621-04:002011-09-16T21:47:07.621-04:00As somebody who subscribed to S&T and Avalon H...As somebody who subscribed to S&T and Avalon Hill's The General at the time (and occasionally thumbed through Dragon when at the FLGS), Avalon Hill tended to ignore TSR, while SPI's Jim Dunnigan was downright dismissive of TSR on a nearly issue by issue basis.<br /><br />Still, I will say that while I played the heck of 1st Ed AD&D, and still have a lot of the book, I will say the Dungeon Master's Guide was still the most poorly edited RPG book I've ever owned. There was no logical order, the layout was amateurish even by late 1970's standards, and Gary Gygax, for all his conceptual brilliance, never found one word to make a point when six would be more obtuse.<br /><br />While a lot of Dunnigan's and SPI's snark aimed at TSR was nothing more than jealousy as TSR eclipsed SPI and AH in the marketplace, he wasn't far from the mark on some of the specific criticisms.Desert Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14837747666646894084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30837978019478158332011-09-16T12:13:15.390-04:002011-09-16T12:13:15.390-04:00The mostly poorly written set of rpg rules I'v...The mostly poorly written set of rpg rules I've ever come across are 2nd Edition Dragonquest; absolutely appalling.<br /><br />A fun enough rpg but the rules...Red_Cardinalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12119321537913665046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45530131963549217372011-09-16T06:14:41.238-04:002011-09-16T06:14:41.238-04:00"...by making a life-long study of the text....."...by making a life-long study of the text..."<br /><br />As others have said: This is rather shockingly, unintentionally prescient.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89327825751928508242011-09-16T04:17:02.224-04:002011-09-16T04:17:02.224-04:00@OlmanFeelyus
While there are gamers who pore ove...@OlmanFeelyus<br /><br />While there are gamers who pore over old manuals as if they were holy writ, a sizable contingent, including the OSR, toss out or rewrite rules that don't work. (Again, much like holy writ.) The archetypal Fantasy Heartbreaker tries to "fix" D&D, but I suspect every system directly or indirectly is a reaction to D&D ... even if the reaction is "tear it down and start over".<br /><br />@Zak S.<br /><br />Maybe it's a law that the proverbial buggy-whip makers heap scorn on those who are destined to put them out of a job. Western Union saw no use in the telephone, talking pictures were a fad, and the computer had no conceivable purpose in a home.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59729110497304097692011-09-16T03:51:26.460-04:002011-09-16T03:51:26.460-04:00PS Which I guess isn't snark, more the equival...PS Which I guess isn't snark, more the equivalent to the review that said that D&D would be best played over the phone.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19549246940309012032011-09-16T03:47:43.608-04:002011-09-16T03:47:43.608-04:00@Michael:
Apparently some early reviewers of '...@Michael:<br /><br />Apparently some early reviewers of 'The Hobbit' assumed that hobbits were "a kind of 'fairy' rabbit" - which actually makes sense given their pacific and hole-dwelling nature, and the tradition of talking animals in fairy tales, and writers such as Lewis Carroll.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58495507243473533192011-09-16T03:44:03.795-04:002011-09-16T03:44:03.795-04:00Considering the state of discourse around all the ...Considering the state of discourse around all the versions of D&D that still exist today (and are the lifeblood of this very blog), he was pretty dead on with the "life-long study of the text" comment! :)OlmanFeelyushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17521657876810568251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74331582692477246742011-09-15T22:50:16.242-04:002011-09-15T22:50:16.242-04:00@Zenopus Archives
Sure thing. There is more to th...@Zenopus Archives<br /><br />Sure thing. There is more to the Holmes review so I'll copy it and send it off to you. Glad to help!Blayne Fleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11330429093758634994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37371061302935880032011-09-15T21:18:34.454-04:002011-09-15T21:18:34.454-04:00@Blacksteel
Yeah they say "life-long study o...@Blacksteel<br /><br />Yeah they say "life-long study of the text" like that's a bad thing. :)Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27657143037958380072011-09-15T21:16:25.731-04:002011-09-15T21:16:25.731-04:00They rate Holmes' Basic D&D a little bette...<i>They rate Holmes' Basic D&D a little better saying, "It was written by someone who knew a noun from a verb, and the difference shows. It's still a long jump short of perfection, but can read this and generally understand what's going on."</i><br /><br />@Jeffrey Fleming <br /><br />Thanks for posting that quote from the CBoW book. Is that the entire review of Holmes Basic in there, or is it longer? It's something I'd like to include in my <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/zenopusarchives/" rel="nofollow">Holmes Basic site</a>.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3901848567964216282011-09-15T18:41:42.838-04:002011-09-15T18:41:42.838-04:00It's pretty true so I'll quote it again......It's pretty true so I'll quote it again...<br /><br />"an overwritten, jumbled mass of discourse upon D&D which can only be assimilated by making a life-long study of the text."<br /><br />... and yet how many of us commenting on James' post here have kind of done that very thing?Blacksteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289298640828309072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38270584417118387012011-09-15T17:34:10.826-04:002011-09-15T17:34:10.826-04:00the one minute round is so daft, I had house ruled...the one minute round is so daft, I had house ruled it away into 6 second rounds before I was even in high school. <br /><br />It's high-larious to go to forums like DF and read diehards comments defending it. They would probably have you believe the sword fight between Wes and Montoya in Princess Bride boils down to two rounds. Faint! Duck! Dodge! Parry! One minute later, you actually get a chance to hit your opponent. Take that, suspension of disbelief!Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5401644510050297592011-09-15T16:38:46.027-04:002011-09-15T16:38:46.027-04:00Picador said: "How did he manage to drill dow...Picador said: "How did he manage to drill down so far into blow-by-blow simulation without moticing that the underlying combat mechanics of AC and 'to hit' rolls are still essentially the Chainmail rules about whether a cavalry unit defeats an infantry unit over the course of a minute of combat?"<br /><br />I would invert that. It's clearly not the latter except in the one place that he has to justify not bothering to change the length of the 1-minute-long round.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54622466694206912602011-09-15T15:03:51.871-04:002011-09-15T15:03:51.871-04:00@dhowarth
I think he means that a person would be...@dhowarth<br /><br />I think he means that a person would be well-informed to search through a haystack for a needle rather than try to figure out 1e AD&D's rules.<br /><br />Quite a load of hyperbole, but I cannot disagree.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09358099916267465455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61839563015386261922011-09-15T14:56:43.361-04:002011-09-15T14:56:43.361-04:00Given the choice between stringing together rules ...<i>Given the choice between stringing together rules in AD&D and discovering the proverbial needle in the haystack, the adroit gamer would make for the farmhouse.</i><br /><br />I'm a little unclear on this last bit.. Is he actually recommending D&D over AD&D?<br /><br />Looking past the snide delivery, all these reviews are dead on target, IMO. A bit harsh, but not wrong.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65103516058454407282011-09-15T14:18:24.058-04:002011-09-15T14:18:24.058-04:00@joseph
Actually Gygax have way better than he go...@joseph<br /><br />Actually Gygax have way better than he got, since he founded the company that would destroy not just SPI but the entire hobby it supported.<br /><br />(<br />http://www.costik.com/spisins.html<br />)<br /><br />So, y'know, be careful on who you snark on, kids.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56685869128486758902011-09-15T14:08:37.237-04:002011-09-15T14:08:37.237-04:00Spot on about AD&D, but I guess he could not f...Spot on about AD&D, but I guess he could not forsee the mysterious and ironic nature that would eventually come out of that clusterfuck of rules and poor editing.<br /><br />But the Runequest cover was not only different and provacative, but that tortilla chick was hot. Hotter than any girl in greek armor has the right to be. In color even moreso. But a lot of space in those rules was wasted on things that would have been better used to give a bit more background on the setting.<br /><br />Yeah, some of us who rise above the level of total geektardism very often feel like taking a swing at other gamers who make us ashamed to be gamers ourselves. More often than not though, we just end up clocking ourselves...Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54395296253203294802011-09-15T13:43:01.258-04:002011-09-15T13:43:01.258-04:00This sort of thing was why when TSR finally bought...This sort of thing was why when TSR finally bought out SPI the destruction of the latter was quick, brutal and efficient. To the victor goes the spoils....Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60912500584772812032011-09-15T13:05:17.446-04:002011-09-15T13:05:17.446-04:00Thanks for the post, I was a big SPI advocate in t...Thanks for the post, I was a big SPI advocate in the early 80's since I played Dragonquest and a few other SPI board games. While I may consider Dragonquest superior to AD & D in design, in terms of support and available materials there was none. The neutered 3rd edition from TSR is somewhat of a sham. But it was fun to read his snarky comments.Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05722958681098483324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66050412309166088832011-09-15T12:38:31.201-04:002011-09-15T12:38:31.201-04:00I have The Complete Book of Wargames by the editor...I have The Complete Book of Wargames by the editors of Consumer Guide with Jon Freeman (also published in 1980) and it has a good bit for snark for D&D as well: "The essential elements—saving throws, hit points, experience points, and so on—are undefined or poorly explained; the ratio of substance to 'holes' compares unfavorably with the head of a tennis racquet. Presented in the most illiterate display of poor grammar, misspellings, and typographical errors in all of professional wargaming..."<br /><br />They rate Holmes' Basic D&D a little better saying, "It was written by someone who knew a noun from a verb, and the difference shows. It's still a long jump short of perfection, but can read this and generally understand what's going on."Blayne Fleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11330429093758634994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51940358836652474552011-09-15T12:33:37.514-04:002011-09-15T12:33:37.514-04:00I'd love to see Gygax's "swipes"...I'd love to see Gygax's "swipes" in return, at SPI. Not because I need to see AD&D defended... just because these snarky exchanges are entertaining to read.KPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18374233546533225028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14895101935382274142011-09-15T12:16:12.505-04:002011-09-15T12:16:12.505-04:00richard beat me to my comment.
Which suggests a...richard beat me to my comment. <br /><br />Which suggests another post for James: finding and posting contemporary reviews of Tolkien.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08868302412533031659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35289850181912955782011-09-15T12:00:41.871-04:002011-09-15T12:00:41.871-04:00Chris and Picador beat me to it, lifting that part...Chris and Picador beat me to it, lifting that particular quote. I guess what Goldberg didn't know was that there would come to be, in fact, a body of Talmudic scholars making a life-long study of the text.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.com