tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8363571930510161100..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Confessions of a Thief HaterJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52972629591629079272020-10-23T12:04:49.815-04:002020-10-23T12:04:49.815-04:00I worked in the mental health field and worked wit...I worked in the mental health field and worked with law enforcement. I hate thieves. They cannot be rehabilitated. I hate them when playing D&D. I try to kill them at every chance. The only time they are allegedly useful is in a dungeon crawl. Are they? In my steampunk game, I use an adventure archeologist (Think Indiana Jones) to detect tract and disarm them. They would also know where hidden treasure would be hidden. Best of all, you never worry about them stealing your loot.In a Medieval setting, this can be replaced by a scholar. Time to dump the thief class.flyingtigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00451222172163535785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16158802777214674522020-10-20T20:53:19.045-04:002020-10-20T20:53:19.045-04:00Mckinney had it right in Carcosa. Everybody is a ...Mckinney had it right in Carcosa. Everybody is a fighter, unless you want to cast spells. Then you're a fighter who can cast spells. Specialists (thieves) are optional.Will Arnoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03698278637449036933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64975743538254506532020-10-08T10:28:59.855-04:002020-10-08T10:28:59.855-04:00I'd suggest that the main problems with Cleric...I'd suggest that the main problems with Clerics are that the class design is effectively a F/MU hybrid with a different (though still very powerful spell list). It's also not an especially flavorful spell list -- a jumble of biblical miracles and vampire movies, and vague ideas about mono-and polytheistic traditions. <br /><br />Imagine what the Cleric might be with a a non-Vancian magic system based on specific deities... Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71223482780657956072020-10-07T10:11:17.102-04:002020-10-07T10:11:17.102-04:00fighters and magic-users are all you need
Let the...<i> fighters and magic-users are all you need</i><br /><br />Let them play Tunnels & Trolls!賈尼https://www.blogger.com/profile/03207671300903490067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46918820118403938262020-10-07T05:49:27.823-04:002020-10-07T05:49:27.823-04:00I always felt that the thief as a class was introd...I always felt that the thief as a class was introduced to solve the problems that was introduced specifically for a thief to solve. I also have a problem with them being referred to as a thief outside a campaign set entirely in the thieves' guild (which even generated it's own D&D variant RPG for doing so). But there is generally a role for the character whose primary combat ability is to effectively avoid combat.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50276380952320899912020-10-06T12:25:22.533-04:002020-10-06T12:25:22.533-04:00I marvel at this discussion and applaud you all fo...I marvel at this discussion and applaud you all for a blade-in-sheath forum. I have nowhere near the rules acumen - let alone the nuance(s) of the various editions - and stopped being an everyday DM/PC nearly 35 years ago. But it was one of the most joyful and creative times of my life, so here goes from a peasant's perspective, a man who can't really read: <br /><br />The goal is to have fun. Create something, explore something, decide on the glimmering cave or the dark winding tunnel. Argue about the merit of a left-handed dwarf in a 2X3 crawl patrol. <br /><br />Thieves were great. Any kid who has an older brother knows about thieving! If you get caught, you get abused. Same with your parents and neighbors. Being aged 8-14 is all about thieving and escaping detection. It is an entirely different skillset and methodology. In my view (let's be fair, in the corporate world we simply thieve with different techniques) the entire D&D arena is based on Getting In, Finding What, and Getting Out. <br /><br />It works for little brothers. It works for thieves. <br /><br />Getting too caught-up in the rules of anything usually hinders the enjoyment of it. Change the rule, overlook it, and get on with the adventure. Nobody ever looks cool staring at their cell phone. And nobody ever looked cool arguing over a fine point in three rulebooks. Life isn't fair. If your big brother ever finds that zippo you took off of him, he's going to light your big toe on fire. Learn how to get in, and get out. Be a wealthy gambler. <br /><br />Get on with the game! Thieves matter. <br /> HuckSawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13381444935904172318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80215923698393651782020-10-06T11:15:33.461-04:002020-10-06T11:15:33.461-04:00I used it in the past and liked it well enough. I&...I used it in the past and liked it well enough. I'd have to look at it again to see if I still felt the same way.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91268119454914868902020-10-06T11:10:01.592-04:002020-10-06T11:10:01.592-04:00"This is mainly because I don't (never ha..."This is mainly because I don't (never have, never will) buy the line that traps and secret doors are meant to be found with role-playing and description."<br /><br />Page 13 Vol 3 The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures.<br /><br />CAL: Okay, what does the room look like — we’re examining the walls, ceiling, floor, and contents of the room itself.<br /><br />REF: (After checking to see if dwarves and/or elves are in the party:) The room is a truncated pyramid. The east wall is the truncated part, directly opposite the door you entered. It is 10’ long with another door in it. The walls connecting it to the west wall, the place you entered, are each about 35’ long. The west wall, which is where you entered, is 30’ long with a door in the middle of the wall. The elf has noted that there seems to be a hollow spot near the east end of the southeast wall. The floor and ceiling seem to have nothing unusual. The room contains the bodies of the gnolls, a pile of refuse in the north corner of the west wall, and two trunks along the wall opposite the one which sounds hollow. <br /><br />CAL: The elf will check out the hollow sound, one of us will sort through the refuse, each trunk will be opened by one of us, and the remaining two (naming exactly who this is) will each guard a door, listening to get an advance warning if anything approaches.<br /><br />REF: Another check on the hollow sound reveals a secret door which opens onto a flight of stairs down to the south. The refuse is nothing but sticks, bones, offal and old clothes. One chest is empty; the other had a poison needle on the lock. (Here a check to see if the character opening it makes his saving throw for poison.) The chest with the poison needle is full of copper pieces — appears to be about 2,000 of themRobert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4004195298235250722020-10-06T10:52:11.483-04:002020-10-06T10:52:11.483-04:00IIRC James, you wrote up a Thief class for Whitebo...IIRC James, you wrote up a Thief class for Whitebox many moons ago in Knockspell #1 or #2. How do you feel about your own previous take these days?JEFFBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08862106711059104379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71896046757678146222020-10-06T10:35:43.609-04:002020-10-06T10:35:43.609-04:00That's true. Along with the Holmes Blue Book r...That's true. Along with the Holmes Blue Book rules, I think the Greyhawk thief is the only version that does it that way.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37521779443725219752020-10-06T10:29:02.194-04:002020-10-06T10:29:02.194-04:00I'll admit that I've always been a pro-thi...I'll admit that I've always been a pro-thief partisan, and I've never really cared for any such arguments that the thief is bad D&D. This is mainly because I don't (never have, never will) buy the line that traps and secret doors are meant to be found with role-playing and description. The game has always had d6 rolls for such things.<br /><br />That said, a recent <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/odnd/comments/j4p8ic/chris_gonnerman_appraises_odd/" rel="nofollow">video by Chris Gonnerman</a> where he discusses how the game operates without the thief makes an intriguingly good point, and it's the only cogent anti-thief argument I've ever heard. Without thieves, everything thiefy is handled by magic, most especially by the intelligent swords with detection powers meant to fall into the hands of fighters. (Plus the likes of <em>find traps, knock, elven cloak and boots</em>, etc.)<br /><br />(I take pains to note here that these remain solidly game-mechanical phenomena that do not rely on vague DM fiat.)<br /><br />For my part, whether I use the thief or not is a matter of genre. If I'm playing straight medieval D&D, my feeling is that thief or burglar is too core an archetype to ignore. I use thief class, and I treat the thief's abilities as "above and beyond" ordinary attempts at stealth, detection, and so forth (as is common among old-school gamers). I also find it very helpful to think of the thief's abilities at the "party-wide" level rather than the "character-granular" level — which is to say, don't think of the low-level thief's crummy Find Traps or Open Locks chance as a poor character-class ability that rarely works; think of it as a last-ditch saving throw for the whole party to open a chest or door without making noise or expending magical resources.<br /><br />If, on the other hand, I'm playing in a more modern setting (my own <em>Engines & Empires</em> game for example), I replace the thief with a "rogue" or "expert" type who has access to the same list of general skills as the other characters but simply gets more of them, and also benefits from other class abilities focused on dodging/evasion, missile-fire, gambling/luck, or other such stereotypically roguish qualities. The thief class, I feel, is too tied to a premodern milieu — it works well in a Renaissance, medieval, or swords & sandals game; but not so much in a pulp or sci-fi one.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86156012072388476722020-10-06T09:17:41.347-04:002020-10-06T09:17:41.347-04:00"I have misgivings, for example, about the fi..."I have misgivings, for example, about the find traps ability, among other things"<br /><br />I think you're conflating a later iteration of the Thief class with the Greyhawk one. Greyhawk only gave Thieves the ability to remove traps, not specifically to find them.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48063188311669910012020-10-06T01:45:06.260-04:002020-10-06T01:45:06.260-04:00I wish you would elaborate on this space. Pick loc...I wish you would elaborate on this space. Pick locks, sneak, and climb is great but not enough to build a class. Roll to find doors, traps, treasure is actively harmful to the game for those of use who like to roleplay those things out as described in the old school "primer".<br /><br />Cleric, on the other hand, is an absolutely necessary class. Got to put those draculas in the grave.Idiomdrottninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09732730893924913660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45552740287783447952020-10-06T01:06:03.148-04:002020-10-06T01:06:03.148-04:00I came to the game when the Thief was already a pa...I came to the game when the Thief was already a part of it. <br />I love thieves, and often play one.<br />I also never felt the urge to remove them (can't say that for the specialist classes, instead). . <br />However, like a few other things in Old School D&D, I classify it as "good idea, poor implementation".<br />artikidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17474295473142339717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85717364716641097672020-10-05T21:30:02.520-04:002020-10-05T21:30:02.520-04:00The challenge is defining what players rolls for t...The challenge is defining what players rolls for their character when they do outside of spellcasting and combat. What modifies these rules. Except for a handful of items, the 3 LBB is silent on the actual rolls although it implied that characters can do these other things. Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50854252723722930372020-10-05T21:25:08.691-04:002020-10-05T21:25:08.691-04:00For my part I jettisoned the thief. All classes ca...For my part I jettisoned the thief. All classes can stealth, all classes can climb, all classes can pick locks. However it makes sense to me and my players that there are those who would be better at these other things. Hence I developed the burglar and other classes that are better at these other things. <br /><br />Folks can see what I did with the following link to a free download.<br />http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2010.pdf<br /><br />@James, the above represents part of been I been doing in the 10 years with my rules since I released the Majestic Wilderlands<br />Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36716311903484205752020-10-05T19:54:53.551-04:002020-10-05T19:54:53.551-04:00There are several like that, I believe.There are several like that, I believe.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69524180915703701492020-10-05T19:53:51.023-04:002020-10-05T19:53:51.023-04:00That's good, right? ;-)That's good, right? ;-)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6271052265043767142020-10-05T19:32:01.684-04:002020-10-05T19:32:01.684-04:00Glad I was sitting down to read this. Geez you'...Glad I was sitting down to read this. Geez you've mellowed over the years, JM... ;)Shane Cubishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09439632627554929290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26815289098145514472020-10-05T19:18:41.829-04:002020-10-05T19:18:41.829-04:00Is there a thief class out there, in an OSR game o...Is there a thief class out there, in an OSR game or homebrew or something, that has dedicated thieves without adding new mechanics? Like they could keep the d6 rolls for spotting traps and secret doors but just have a better chance, maybe get a version of the dwarven dungeon sense, that kind of thing.Nat 20https://www.blogger.com/profile/05723723386691404829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27895032135251873272020-10-05T19:07:49.428-04:002020-10-05T19:07:49.428-04:00The interesting thing is that I know people who do...The interesting thing is that I know people who <i>do</i> make that argument against the inclusion of clerics. There's a small but vocal group who feel that fighters and magic-users are all you need. They're not wrong, but I would miss clerics.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15552677118771181752020-10-05T19:06:16.391-04:002020-10-05T19:06:16.391-04:00It's interesting you bring up the Leiber conne...It's interesting you bring up the Leiber connection. I hadn't really considered that before.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20155024830788349262020-10-05T19:01:55.316-04:002020-10-05T19:01:55.316-04:00While not "LBB", the thief made its way ...While not "LBB", the thief made its way in to the game VERY quickly, first as a publicized house ruled class in 1974 (the year the LBBs came out), then almost identically written in Greyhawk in 1975. So while not 'LBB-pure', it was the first extra class made. <br /><br />The Thief, while not necessary (are any of them 'necessary'?) does fill a niche. D&D is full of trapped doors, trapped chests, etc., and no way to detect them outside of role-play. Remember, Find Traps is for small object traps not pit traps or room traps - anyone can find those on a 1 in 6 chance (dwarves have 2 in 6). <br /><br />You can make the exact same argument that the cleric is not necessary - undead can be fought in combat or run away from, you don't need a method to overcome them like turning.<br /><br />Glad you've softened on Thieves.ThrorIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10576112896575184085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11997009219687684352020-10-05T18:35:56.464-04:002020-10-05T18:35:56.464-04:00I suspect that the relationship between the folks ...I suspect that the relationship between the folks in Lake Geneva and Fritz Leiber and his Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser meant not, if, but when, thieves would be a part of D&D. I can remember playing, early on, in campaigns that didn't use the thief class. And, even later on, players choosing to ignore the class. The "detect skills" were handled with modified % dice rolls. Rick Krebshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02455824039524230156noreply@blogger.com