tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8578589778548259012..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: A Sci-Fi Pet PeeveJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81651389911074772692011-09-30T23:59:48.685-04:002011-09-30T23:59:48.685-04:00I like "Things to Come", the 1936 versio...I like "Things to Come", the 1936 version. It's a future history that when it was filmed it was booed out of theaters for predicting another world war and of course aeroplanes crossing the white cliffs of Dover in war...<br /><br /><br />The "Real" history after that was different, of course, yet in many ways it was an exaggerated version of the decades that did follow. It grew to cult status in the 60s/70s for the message and challenge of social progress versus social desires.<br /><br /><br /><br />Then there was "Last and First Men" another one that went way wrong early on, yet still is a classic. Freaked out CS Lewis enough to write his "Space" stories in pure, bitter opposition to just a small part of it. Then Stapledon wrote a work that dwarfed even that, "Star maker"Maxx Feralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17881272313345949546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13379351866642641592011-08-11T22:03:32.762-04:002011-08-11T22:03:32.762-04:00Well in Tekumel's case you could be walking do...Well in Tekumel's case you could be walking down a corridor in the Underworld and wind up 1000s of years in Tekumel's past or in 1920s Mexico for that matter. <br /><br />There's always Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age article, though I'm not sure it was meant for general publication or as the foreward / appendix of sorts it's become. 1000s of years before Conan to the modern day.<br /><br />In a way I view Tekumel's "pre-history" similarly, it's a bridge to get from the modern day to Tekumel's now and a worldbuilding essey of how Barker got there. Doublechecking in both EPT and TEPT it takes up about 2-3 pages, I must've been thinking of the full monty from Swords & Glory or Tekumel.com. Still, it shouldn't be front and center, but somehow, since it does feature in gameplay, it should be available to the GM at least. (shrugs)Kevin Clementhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01910390681173250255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52582280577016189912011-08-04T21:44:10.218-04:002011-08-04T21:44:10.218-04:00I note that some classic D&D sources, such as ...I note that some classic D&D sources, such as H.R.Haggard's _She_, took the trouble to establish a deep backstory to motivate the adventures.<br /><br />_She_ doesn't start out with the "wilderness adventure." The story introduces the characters, then introduces a very detailed archaeological McGuffin. The characters get on a ship, and then the actual *adventure* begins. (And Haggard's ship keeps getting copied - if you read Haggard and then look back through TSR products, you'll see that they keep imitating it. Gygax also imitated the archaeology.)<br /><br />You can't have a good dungeon crawl if the dungeon is just a couple of caves. A good dungeon has to have a history. The dungeon has different rooms that don't match in style. There's a natural cave system that used to be inhabited by giant slugs. The dwarves cleared out the slugs and extended the cave system with good dwarf architecture. Then a mad wizard enslaved the dwarves and turned them into a degenerate sub-human race of servitors. <br /><br />The mad wizard forced the new ex-dwarf servitors to dig even deeper, past another cave system that contains xorns.<br /><br />The mad wizard is now a lich in the deepest part of the dungeon.<br /><br /><br />The history doesn't have associated dates, but it has an excellent timeline, and all of those past events left evidence that the players are expected to find. In fact, the DM will probably get angry if the players ignore it - there might be backstory-dependent riddles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23390123688865767822011-08-04T21:30:06.771-04:002011-08-04T21:30:06.771-04:00I like lots of technical details, if they actually...I like lots of technical details, if they actually make sense.<br /><br />I hate "Star Trek" style tech, where the writers would make scripts that go like this:<br /><br />SCOTTY: Captain, there's a [TECH] with the [TECH] and the Enterprise can't move until we fix it.<br /><br />Then the director would scribble in "instability" over the first TECH and "dilithium crystals" over the second, and the script would get shot.<br /><br />That's the kind of technobabble that I hate.<br /><br />On the other hand, I usually like "future history" that is decades or centuries of explanation. Usually the authors who bother to think that stuff up really believe in their premises and put effort into their deductions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7691521931632614582011-08-04T14:43:22.963-04:002011-08-04T14:43:22.963-04:00Do the work, then bury it. Let it come out when it...Do the work, then bury it. Let it come out when it's essential for the story, and show just enough extra little bits to intrigue readers and let them fill in the blanks -- what they imagine will be more interesting than anything you can come up with...Matthew Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04905727799828366356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2887108323472807312011-08-04T11:22:00.215-04:002011-08-04T11:22:00.215-04:00"in my experience, writers/creators who obses...<i>"in my experience, writers/creators who obsess over this kind of stuff rarely refrain from sharing it with their readers/viewers eventually"</i><br /><br />True enough. I do, as I said, agree with the concept that it should be <i>presented</i> sparingly and through events rather than exposition (or at least not through exposition disconnected from the main story). The very best authors seem to have detailed timelines that they choose not to present explicitly (<i>Dune</i> is the most obvious example here).faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87328002479882438982011-08-04T11:05:40.887-04:002011-08-04T11:05:40.887-04:00My objection is to the more extreme position that ...<i>My objection is to the more extreme position that not knowing about the history until it is needed is the best way to do things for all authors.</i><br /><br>I don't disagree. I will only say that, in my experience, writers/creators who obsess over this kind of stuff rarely refrain from sharing it with their readers/viewers eventually. There are exceptions, of course, but I think it's often too great a temptation for most creators to resist.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9165794420471283812011-08-04T11:03:40.325-04:002011-08-04T11:03:40.325-04:00Guys,
I realize that I often write hyperbolically...Guys,<br /><br />I realize that I often write hyperbolically for effect and I'm certainly not immune to ranting irrationally, but, as I explained in one of the comments above, I don't think the inclusion of historical exposition is an unforgivable sin. Obviously, there are degrees of it and, even there, I've rarely found that history wholly (or even partially) destroys my enjoyment of a story/movie/TV show. That's why I called my preference a "pet peeve" rather than a reasoned and logically argued position.<br /><br />I will say, though, that I'm not the only one cherry picking or being disingenuous here. I don't see how, for example, anyone can seriously believe that the opening scrawl of <i>any</i> of the <i>Star Wars</i> movies is what I was complaining about or that it counters my general point.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60360719436242803772011-08-04T10:45:27.684-04:002011-08-04T10:45:27.684-04:00Everett: I don't think that we're in oppos...Everett: I don't think that we're in opposition at all. I'm only taking issue with those who seem to be saying that creating history on the fly, as needed, is not only the best way for them, but also the best way for everyone.<br /><br />I can accept James's original idea, that history should be kept from being explicitly presented, that it should come out through events (with the caveat that some background is necessary, if for no other reason than that the audience does not have the kind of background of history that they automatically do for a modern-set story). My objection is to the more extreme position that not knowing about the history until it is needed is the best way to do things for all authors. Lucas is the obvious counter-example, given the seriously fractured storytelling of the prequel trilogy in relation to the original trilogy.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68457957882225888082011-08-04T10:42:34.789-04:002011-08-04T10:42:34.789-04:00Adrian's onto something, I think. Your example...Adrian's onto something, I think. Your examples are somewhat cherry-picked in regards to modern settings. 1776 doesn't matter to a modern American setting in the sense that we don't have a smoldering, hate-filled war with the British, unlike the way 1950s Palestine matters a lot to the current state of a modern Israel setting. Then again, you don't need a lot of material to make that understood.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43878363865794294802011-08-04T10:33:44.677-04:002011-08-04T10:33:44.677-04:00@Barkling Alien, Faoladh, John:
I don't think...@Barkling Alien, Faoladh, John:<br /><br />I don't think we're as opposed as it looks. I've already stated that the timeline and history is important for the author to have in his mind. I just don't want to read his notes while pretending it's a novel.<br /><br />In fantasy and scifi, backstory, history...it's salt. You need a good supply on hand because you never know when that extra pinch is needed to really bring out the flavor. But unless you're from M-113, no one wants to eat a 9 page salt sandwich. Look at Star Wars; here's a crawl, here's a reference to the Jedi and Clone Wars, and that's it. Perfect. For 2 hours or 300 pages, I probably don't need more than that. Just a pinch.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59663814428577895322011-08-04T10:17:40.804-04:002011-08-04T10:17:40.804-04:00@faoladh
Yeah, I mean, why have the scroll at all...@faoladh<br /><br />Yeah, I mean, why have the scroll at all? Why not just start the film with one ship blasting another? Obviously it needed a bit of set up. A bit of...history perhaps?Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78436299419808846742011-08-04T08:34:39.565-04:002011-08-04T08:34:39.565-04:00I have found "making it up as you go along&qu...I have found "making it up as you go along" approach to worldbuilding on RPG campaigns very liberating, I used to obsess too much with all making sense.Jonashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11838302056850766272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84029083583240270382011-08-04T04:48:33.491-04:002011-08-04T04:48:33.491-04:00Yeah, it sure is a good thing that Lucas didn'...Yeah, it sure is a good thing that Lucas didn't have a strong idea of the timeline when he made those prequels, right? Making it up as you go along works for everyone!faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5456151002396966282011-08-04T04:46:37.000-04:002011-08-04T04:46:37.000-04:00"Episode IV, A NEW HOPE It is a period of civ..."Episode IV, A NEW HOPE It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy…"<br /><br />Huh? What base? Dantoine? What first Victory against the Empire? It might have been useful to use the [imperials converse at a table about the current situation] to let slip 'the strike on the Clone Facilities on Camino has slowed Stormtrooper production temporarily.'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21640441137792345742011-08-04T04:33:04.276-04:002011-08-04T04:33:04.276-04:00If you're going to create a sandbox world, you...If you're going to create a sandbox world, you have to provide the backstory. Otherwise people don't understand what the sandbox *is*.<br /><br />But if you're basically following an episodic format where players show up to play the game the GM prepared then, yeah, why bother with the backstory? Just fill in the details in each episode.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79407976004952039402011-08-04T04:19:42.855-04:002011-08-04T04:19:42.855-04:00I could argue that for many people aged under 30 a...I could argue that for many people aged under 30 a bit of text about Britain's situation in the 60's would in fact make the original Bond books more accessible. In fact, I think I will.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19587145871638583112011-08-04T04:05:13.295-04:002011-08-04T04:05:13.295-04:00If you read H Beam Piper's Terrohuman Future H...If you read H Beam Piper's Terrohuman Future History then there is only one story that relies on the entire sweep of that history (<i>The Edge of the Knife</i>), because that is THE central theme to the story. In other stories there may be nods to the reader who has read the other books (such as the nod to <i>A Slave Is A Slave</i> and <i>Space Viking</i> in <i>Ministry of Disturbance</i>, but the characters are all living in the now. Even <i>Space Viking</i>, where the immediate history plays an important part (the collapse of the Federation), it is presented as a concern of the characters.<br /><br />Distant history (ie not current events) is like distant geography in a book or game. It's a splendid opportunity to drop in an off-hand comment or tag to entice the reader (or player). One of my favourite's is The Incendiary Cat Episode in Barrayaran politics that Lois Bujold mentions off-handedly. The nice thing us that the author can always go back later and fill in details if she feels it necessary, such as she did with Lord Midnight [?]. Or not, as is the case of the Neuvo Brasilians who are off-handedly mentioned in the first book as a possible rival to the Barrayarans and then seem to disappear from the Nexus entirely.<br /><br />These sort of tags are great in a game, since it means if players are interested in them they will pick up on them and the game will expand in that direction. On the other hand, it means that each gamemaster's world will become increasingly non-canon (which is an important thing for some people).Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72166876026879268932011-08-04T02:26:16.400-04:002011-08-04T02:26:16.400-04:00Barking Alien (and John): If it's any consolat...Barking Alien (and John): If it's any consolation, I would have posted the same thing, but you two had already done so.<br /><br />Seriously, guys, all of that historical timeline stuff exists in modern settings, it's just that you're immersed in it already. I've been thinking about this lately, actually, because I'm considering creating a "modern mundane fantastic" setting for <i>Top Secret</i> (something like the setting in <i>Royal Space Force: Wings of Honnêamise</i>), since the Cold War is no longer current background (I'm also thinking about setting a campaign in the early 1980s instead).faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61374072639781488112011-08-03T23:23:12.802-04:002011-08-03T23:23:12.802-04:00On the subject of Batman, it's been noted that...On the subject of Batman, it's been noted that Batman's origins are <i>not</i> explained in <i>Batman: The Animated Series</i> and I would imagine several of the shows that followed. It's also only teased at in a Scarecrow-gas segment in <i>Arkham Asylum</i>. Some people get it, they just don't happen to be making movies. :(Marathon Recapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00264401333887913083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59322952852201788192011-08-03T22:43:37.570-04:002011-08-03T22:43:37.570-04:00This may be relevant to your concerns: http://en.w...This may be relevant to your concerns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity<br /><br />It touches on the main reason we cannot really discuss the future with even a semblance of certainty: things change in such a way as to be utterly unpredictable. If you asked someone in the 50s what today would be like, they would guess flying cars and life on mars, not a sophisticated agro-model that feeds billions or the ability of even simpletons to communicate of immense distances instantly. They could not have foreseen it.<br /><br />History is a complex system with so many variables that you cannot be sure how things will change. At some point, the sheer number of possibilities becomes impossible to predict. We can't foresee how even the smallest technological advances might subsequently impact all other parts of history. <br /><br />Furthermore, no one is going to dig up your novel in 2500 and say, "see, you were wrong!" The best novels in the genre focus on telling a good story first, and only patch up the gaps when necessary. Just as in Fantasy, where the only time you need fill in details is when they depart seriously from our understandings.Luke Martinezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17613401274696711406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78660068581025701512011-08-03T22:06:27.302-04:002011-08-03T22:06:27.302-04:00Seems John and I have essentially the same idea......Seems John and I have essentially the same idea...and the same ability to be largely ignored. :(Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86663331020072700462011-08-03T21:26:56.234-04:002011-08-03T21:26:56.234-04:00I've often wondered at the way SF settings try...I've often wondered at the way SF settings try to justify themselves through meticulous timelines or historical essays covering the origin of every speculative thing about the setting. The first zap-gun was invented in 2012, Warp-drive was discovered in 2107, aliens were contacted in 2330, et cetra, et cetra. Yet I've never picked up a Old West game that, say, fussed over when the six-gun was invented. Or a fantasy game that stated when Orcs were discovered.<br /><br />Timelines, besides being nonsensical, often have the oddity of tying the setting to near-future fictional events (thus soon erroneous) no matter how far off the "present" of the game is. If the game is about piloting intergalactic scout cutters in 3333 A.D., what is the point of stating that first sleeper ship was launched in 2007?E.T.Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10839361427618049936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46094229410921376962011-08-03T21:05:06.364-04:002011-08-03T21:05:06.364-04:00No it is not necessary to unload a past history bu...No it is not necessary to unload a past history but it requires a rare skill to recreate an appropriately distant mood, tone or psychology. We know this because contemporary european and american sensibilities are not close and mediaeval and Greek are estranged even further.<br /><br />Stapledon's Last and First Men and Starmaker are probably your exceptions and George Orwell and Zamyatin are perhaps good examples of jumping in.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39652245134244569602011-08-03T20:58:38.438-04:002011-08-03T20:58:38.438-04:00A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
Then ....A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.<br /><br />Then ...<br /><br />Episode IV, A NEW HOPE It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy….<br /><br />I have all the history I need to get me up to speed and to shrug off my suspension of disbelief. Then the movie keeps throwing out Tim Bits of history.<br /><br />I want to add that I have always been impressed with those who spend time creating complex timelines, or alternate histories. Some of them sadly read like the descendants of Japheth in the Bible - long boring lists of dates with a short sentence of some event, battle, or king. Those are a bear to read.Anathematicianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09690147218442114230noreply@blogger.com