tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8709525668409810103..comments2024-03-28T20:36:33.364-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Not BadJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23353879582299168212008-08-05T16:27:00.000-04:002008-08-05T16:27:00.000-04:00Andrew,You're correct in saying that much of t...Andrew,<BR/><BR/>You're correct in saying that much of the "roughness" of OD&D comes from its being the work of inexperienced authors and a new company. I'm not in fact someone who argues that, just because something is unclear in the three little brown books, Gygax and Arneson intended it to be unclear and thus open to interpretation by the individual referee.<BR/><BR/>That said, OD&D includes no section that states that "Everything is Balanced" in the way Moldvay/Cook does. That is a shift away from the philosophy of OD&D and, while it's a small thing, it is a step on the road toward the standardization that I think is anathema to old school gaming.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33776958530470954772008-08-05T16:18:00.000-04:002008-08-05T16:18:00.000-04:00Hmmmm. Saying Moldvay/Cook is a clear step away f...Hmmmm. Saying Moldvay/Cook is a clear step away from OD&D because the rules are slick and clear may or may not be correct. It depends. Do you think OD&D is unclear and unslick because:<BR/><BR/>A) That's the way the authors intended it in order to promote a certain style of play.<BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/>B) It was simply their first attempt at putting a game together and the end result was a bit rough.<BR/><BR/>If you go with option A, then yes Moldvay/Cook would be a change of philosophy. If you go with option B, it's simply a more organized ruleset from a company that has a bit more experience.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67393904345000006802008-08-05T10:32:00.000-04:002008-08-05T10:32:00.000-04:00Did you happen to see this S. John Ross bit on com...Did you happen to see <A HREF="http://www.io.com/~sjohn/five-elements.htm" REL="nofollow">this S. John Ross bit </A>on commercial game design? One bit of it is what I wanted to say, only said better and with less chance of being inflammatory.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72508769697231082252008-08-05T07:52:00.000-04:002008-08-05T07:52:00.000-04:00I will be very interested in seeing why you have i...<I>I will be very interested in seeing why you have issues with it.</I><BR/><BR/>Quite simply: Moldvay/Cook is a slick, clear set of rules geared for the mass market rather than the hobbyist. It's a big step toward the brandification of <I>D&D</I> that culminates in 4e. <BR/><BR/>As Jeff notes in an earlier comment, it's a helluva fun step, but it's a step nonetheless. It represents a change in thinking at TSR both in terms of what the ideal of <I>D&D</I> is and what the hobby was all about. Don't get me wrong: I actually like Moldvay/Cook a great deal. However, it's a clear shift away from the old school (though not as much as Mentzer) and that saddens me.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90625498379293509392008-08-05T01:29:00.000-04:002008-08-05T01:29:00.000-04:00Road to Perdition Moldvay/Cook?Uhhh... its almost ...Road to Perdition Moldvay/Cook?<BR/><BR/>Uhhh... its almost the best D&D there is! I would almost put Mentzer ahead of it, except its harder to find stuff and the planned 36 level dealie slowed down advancement a bit... (And it really should have added AD&D hit points, something my own house rules did. Of course I eventually decided on a AD&D1-2nd edition AD&D TSR era house rule set for maximum fun anyhow. Somewhere with AD&D and Basic and a taste of D20 lies the perfect D&D ideal. Castles and Crusades came VERY close to it.)<BR/><BR/>I will be very interested in seeing why you have issues with it.Captain Rufushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296697477771399357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43028835403358750662008-08-04T22:10:00.000-04:002008-08-04T22:10:00.000-04:00I agree with you. This cover is one of the things ...I agree with you. This cover is one of the things I hate least about 4e. Though, I'll admit I always thought the 3e/3.5 core covers were interesting, and I'd have liked them in a prestige format (IE actual leather binding and such).Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50717852061838696832008-08-04T17:13:00.000-04:002008-08-04T17:13:00.000-04:00Moldvay/Cook was in fact another step on the road ...<B>Moldvay/Cook was in fact another step on the road to perdition</B><BR/><BR/>I don't disagree, but man is it a helluva fun step!Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88688385072505537402008-08-04T15:59:00.000-04:002008-08-04T15:59:00.000-04:00In fact, I'll one-up your heresy by suggesting tha...<I>In fact, I'll one-up your heresy by suggesting that Otus is closer to Elmore than he is to what we find in the little brown books (though that's an idea I'm still teasing at the edges of.)</I><BR/><BR/>In the sense of being a professional artist rather than a talented (or not-so-talented) amateur, I'd agree with you. But, by that metric, Dave Trampier is also closer to Elmore than to Greg Bell or Keenan Powell, which makes it a heresy without much meaningful doctrine. <BR/><BR/>(I think only Dave Sutherland manages to retain the "talented amateur" moniker without qualification)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30370552428055945992008-08-04T15:55:00.000-04:002008-08-04T15:55:00.000-04:00I'd be interested in hearing more of your view...<I>I'd be interested in hearing more of your views on the non-advanced D&D books (Moldvay Basic, Cook Expert, Holmes Basic, and the whole BECMI lineup) both in terms of artistry (cover or otherwise) and game content.</I><BR/><BR/>I plan on doing a series on them after I finish with the <I>Monster Manual</I> covers.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11234464067927639232008-08-04T15:22:00.000-04:002008-08-04T15:22:00.000-04:00Me too! I also rank this as the second-best DMG c...Me too! I also rank this as the second-best DMG cover, after the 1e revised by Easley. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn the "easter egg" was something the artist did independently of the art direction, though I rather doubt it. As it stands, I don't feel the echo of the Cook Expert cover is anything more than a skin-deep genuflection to the past.<BR/><BR/>As far as Moldvay/Cook being "another step on the road to perdition", I can certainly understand why you hold that view. Honestly, the more I study the art of D&D, the more the professional, polished look of those books seems to foreshadow the coming of the Elmore era of late '80s D&D. In fact, I'll one-up your heresy by suggesting that Otus is closer to Elmore than he is to what we find in the little brown books (though that's an idea I'm still teasing at the edges of.)<BR/><BR/>- Briantrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62666819581276961602008-08-04T15:15:00.000-04:002008-08-04T15:15:00.000-04:00...need to do something in order to distinguish D&......<I>need to do something in order to distinguish D&D from its bastard offspring... As a commercial property, D&D is almost certainly underperforming compared to its erstwhile descendants...</I><BR/><BR/>Isn't this exactly the answer to your previous post about the commodification of every part of D&D's history and creeping canonization of Gygax's odds and ends? I suspect D&D is something of a commercial chimera: it looks promising, but most of its appealing flavor has been strip-mined by other products, and what's left is the quirky and indigestible (beholders, mind flayers and one-shot spell-casting). Trying to develop it as a Hasbro property has to be an unenviable task, frankly: you're supposed to get it to live up to its name, in a landscape that's basically different from the one in which it first flourished. I sympathize with your view that there's a great and glorious pulp fantasy game underneath the layers of accumulated stock-fantasy-building, but if I were working at Hasbro I don't think I'd be inclined to bet mass-market budgets on (and I say this with sad fellow-feeling) fringe audiences. I might be persuaded to (re)launch a Conan game, or something based on another recognisable property that didn't have to struggle with the weight of all those DragonThings and Ravenlofts and what have you, but I'd be looking for something conceptually lean and clearly communicable, with a core you can pick up and play right away and potential for really intriguing splatbooks. In the Hasbro exec's shoes, I'd be asking if we couldn't do something cross-market, that combined aspects of RPG and CCG play. It would take a <I>lot</I> of persuading for me to consider taking a punt on an eanestly-meant, slightly tongue-in-cheek, genre-bending (but not breaking) pasticchio of off-kilter elements.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-314190873027727422008-08-04T13:25:00.000-04:002008-08-04T13:25:00.000-04:00I concur, 4e isn't a game that grabs me, but t...I concur, 4e isn't a game that grabs me, but this cover isn't bad.<BR/><BR/>I'd be interested in hearing more of your views on the non-advanced D&D books (Moldvay Basic, Cook Expert, Holmes Basic, and the whole BECMI lineup) both in terms of artistry (cover or otherwise) and game content.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.com