tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8828673217216323274..comments2024-03-28T13:22:07.685-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Anti-ClericsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78600935455722156602010-10-18T00:14:04.046-04:002010-10-18T00:14:04.046-04:00James, if your defition of "conveying meaning...James, if your defition of "conveying meaning" is "communicating in such a way that it is impossible for any individual to misunderstand", than no one has ever conveyed meaning in the history of humanity. <br /><br />You made a clear, unambiguous assertion about the rules of OD&D which is contradicted by other parts of the text. There's no need to throw up your hands; relax. You communicate a whole darn lot of meaning to me. You regularly produce a lot of clear and meaningful and interesting text. I'm upset too when I make a mistake in front of other people. But we all make mistakes and it's not a big deal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40466027852029668802010-10-18T00:12:03.653-04:002010-10-18T00:12:03.653-04:00This site does a good job of debunking the idea th...<a href="http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/394539.html" rel="nofollow">This site</a> does a good job of debunking the idea that clergy didn't use edged weapons:<br /><br /><i>The legends surrounding Turpin (Tilpin), Archbishop of Rheims present many troubles to modern scholars since it is not unlikely that some or all the military exploits ascribed to him were actually the deeds of Milo, one of his predecessors in the archiepiscopal seat. But let us forget the historical Turpin for a while; the person that matters to us is the legendary and literary Turpin, one of the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne. It is true that this Turpin occasionally uses a club or a mace in battle, but on the one hand some of the legends also describe the other (non-clerical) knights fighting with the mace as well, and on the other practically every one of them has Turpin driving his enemies before him with a lance or a sword (especially in tales about the battle at Roncesvalles/Roncevaux Pass, where Turpin is usually described with a lance). There are even several tales that contain no mentions of him wielding a mace or club at all, putting a lance or sword in his hand every time he appears in a martial capacity. So, the legendary Turpin does not make a very good case for the restriction of militant clergy to blunt weapons; if anything, the literary treatments of him tend to weaken rather than support the idea.</i>Elfdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4167613609289889192010-10-17T21:10:03.251-04:002010-10-17T21:10:03.251-04:00Suburbanbanshee, do you post on other blogs under ...Suburbanbanshee, do you post on other blogs under this handle? I think we may know each other from a few other places on teh Intarwebz. ;)Flambeauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133131881423202010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63725686661438791072010-10-17T15:58:01.973-04:002010-10-17T15:58:01.973-04:00Actually, the idea that clerics weren't permit...Actually, the idea that clerics weren't permitted pointed/edged weapons is pretty simple in its genesis.<br /><br />In medieval Europe, and indeed today, priests are pretty much forbidden by canon law to kill people, unless you have a really really good reason. I believe that the exact turn of phrase used to be "to shed blood". This of course led, in legend if not in fact, to clerics like Charlemagne's bishop Turpin running around with a mace instead of a sword, or Friar Tuck using a quarterstaff instead of a bow. (Though honestly, a mace sheds plenty blood if you smash hard enough.) It's also the reason why the civil and religious rules for military chaplains are fairly strict about them not using weaponry.<br /><br />Partly, this was to keep sacred hands clean of blood. (And an awful lot of religions all over the world agree with this, even when it's for ceremonial or magical reasons instead of moral ones.) Partly this was fair play, since striking or using physical force against a priest or higher cleric was and is an instant excommunication offense, and often a civil offense as well. Medieval Irish law broadened this to make both women and monks totally off-limits for war and other fighting, though with legal provisions for self-defense and legal incentives for laymen to defend them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36466892469651195092010-10-16T21:38:10.024-04:002010-10-16T21:38:10.024-04:00The picture for this blog post seem to have garner...The picture for this blog post seem to have garnered as much attention as the text. He's getting a bit fresh with his right hand - don't get any bad ideas or inspiration there.MZMollyTLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17565896547458451347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62005995181092887892010-10-16T20:47:22.601-04:002010-10-16T20:47:22.601-04:00@Kiltedyaksman, an ESP medallion to you sir for me...@Kiltedyaksman, an ESP medallion to you sir for mentioning my favorite board game!<br /><br />FWIW, I picked up some minis for when we play to use instead of the plain ol' pawns. I made sure the superhero had wings on his helm. :)Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07997164906328234122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5404777353136958792010-10-16T20:32:52.518-04:002010-10-16T20:32:52.518-04:00James said...
Bonus points for using the pic ...<i>James said...<br /><br /> Bonus points for using the pic from The Devil Rides Out. :)</i><br /><br />Or as it's known in the USA, <i>The Devil's Bride</i>. The studio was worried American audiences might mistake it for a western. The movie was on TCM last Friday night and I missed it -DAMN!<br /><br /><i>There simply are no clerics as written in the rules in Vance, Howard, Leiber, etc and the case for the fairy-tale Christian one seems so strong in the early game: the spell list that reads like a walk through the Old and New Testament; the blunt weapons proscription; an English saint in Hommlet; the Latin-speaking clerics of Holmes; etc.</i><br /><br />The idea of clergy being forbidden the use of edged/pointed weapons is a fantasy <b>Brain Bug*</b> created by Gygax to justify restricting the "coolest" weapons to fighters. Like many of the rules in (A)D&D, it's a ham-handed and ill-considered solution to something that really wasn't a problem. <br /><br /><br /><b>*</b> A <a href="http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/BrainBugs.html" rel="nofollow">Brain Bug</a> is a term coined by Mike Wong to describe an idea in sci-fi that takes root, then takes on a life of its own -usually becoming something entirely different. For example, the way Klingons were transformed from obvious analogues for the Soviets (out to expand into neighboring territories by force and/or subversion) into Space Vikings (who want to die gloriously in battle to go to Valhalla).Elfdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62621865395644026972010-10-16T20:18:20.344-04:002010-10-16T20:18:20.344-04:00Well, maybe that is because you start this post wi...Well, maybe that is because you start this post with:<br /><br />"One of the easily overlooked aspects of OD&D is that all clerics are Lawful in alignment."<br /><br />I do not think that is actually easily overlooked, so much as one possible interpretation. Yes, the internet is troublesome for communication, and I doubted you really mean what that first sentence implies, but there you go.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70668019739984062332010-10-16T19:57:09.493-04:002010-10-16T19:57:09.493-04:00my concern is the wisdom in thinking of it as &quo...<i>my concern is the wisdom in thinking of it as "the" reading that is evident from the text</i><br /><br>Except that I never claimed it was <i>the</i> reading only the one that seems most evident to me, as I state in my first paragraph. I'm not sure there are many definitive readings to many aspects of OD&D, which is why I prefer it to later versions of the game.<br /><br />Ah well. This past week convinces me ever more that conveying meaning over the Internet is nearly impossible. Almost anything one says is going to be misunderstood or misconstrued by someone.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68599269971450440552010-10-16T19:46:56.651-04:002010-10-16T19:46:56.651-04:00Well, I am not having a go at the plausibility; my...Well, I am not having a go at the plausibility; my concern is the wisdom in thinking of it as "the" reading that is evident from the text, rather than simply one possible (but in my opinion not likely) interpretation. Yes, evil clerics get a fair bit of extra commentary, but do we really think all the other references to clerics throughout the texts refer only to those of the lawful sort? Some obviously do, others obviously do not, such as<br /><br />"Skeletons and Zombies act only under the instructions of their motivator, be it a Magic-User or Cleric (Chaos)."<br /><br />Why use "cleric (chaos)" and not "anti-cleric", if the latter is truly a distinct class? Much like the dervish reference to "medium foot" there is nomenclature in the text that is not repeated elsewhere.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31910629446848235242010-10-16T19:26:59.122-04:002010-10-16T19:26:59.122-04:00Honestly, I think that is reading into it more tha...<i>Honestly, I think that is reading into it more than is there. It could be that the germ of the idea of two separate classes was present in the mind of the author as he wrote that passage, but it is not evident in the rest of the text.</i><br /><br>Anti-clerics get a separate list of level titles, including one -- shaman -- that's truly unique. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe anti-clerics as a separate class is more than a germ of an idea. I'll grant it's not evident, but, really, in OD&D, what is? <br /><br />I don't think there's anything implausible in my interpretation of the text. I think it can be supported at least as well as almost any interpretation of the way, say, elves work in the LBBs, another area where it's not evident what the author intended. I guess I don't see what's unwise about reading the text to make anti-clerics into a separate class.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44661760111406407292010-10-16T18:59:41.631-04:002010-10-16T18:59:41.631-04:00Then why the phrase "There are Anti-Clerics (...<i>Then why the phrase "There are Anti-Clerics (listed below) who have similar powers to Clerics?" If they're just evil clerics, why use that phrasing?</i><br /><br />Because it is an organically developed game system and not everything systematically accords with everything else. Notably, "anti-cleric" only occurs in that passage as a phrase at all, with other references to "evil clerics" or "chaotic clerics" clearly thinking of them as clerics.<br /><br /><i>So far as I recall, Lawful clerics can only use one reversed spell, finger of death, and only in life-or-death situations, as "misuse will immediately turn him into an Anti-Cleric." That phrasing suggests that there's more to being an anti-cleric than simply being a Chaotically-aligned cleric</i>.<br /><br />Honestly, I think that is reading into it more than is there. It could be that the germ of the idea of two separate classes was present in the mind of the author as he wrote that passage, but it is not evident in the rest of the text.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38383130257731209582010-10-16T18:55:06.692-04:002010-10-16T18:55:06.692-04:00The fact is "anti-cleric" is not a separ...<i>The fact is "anti-cleric" is not a separate class in OD&D as far as I can see, but just nomenclature for describing an evil or chaotic aligned cleric.</i><br /><br>Then why the phrase "There are Anti-Clerics (listed below) who have similar powers to Clerics?" If they're just evil clerics, why use that phrasing?<br /><br /><i>(though note that lawful clerics can use reversed spells, such as finger of death, even if at their peril)</i><br /><br>So far as I recall, Lawful clerics can only use one reversed spell, <i>finger of death</i>, and only in life-or-death situations, as "misuse will immediately turn him into an Anti-Cleric." That phrasing suggests that there's more to being an anti-cleric than simply being a Chaotically-aligned cleric.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72633542974170527552010-10-16T18:28:33.338-04:002010-10-16T18:28:33.338-04:00Anti-Heroes have no existence outside of a separat...<i>Anti-Heroes have no existence outside of a separate nomenclature to describe Hero figures who are evil, do they? Do they have any abilities or characteristics that distinguish them from Heroes the way that anti-clerics are distinguished from clerics? Anti-clerics enjoy a strong mechanical distinction from clerics as I read the text, which is why I don't I'm at all mistaken in viewing them as I do</i>.<br /><br />I am not saying it is a mistake, but I am saying that I would be wary of the division you are creating (as I think you are creating it more strongly than the books do). The fact is "anti-cleric" is not a separate class in OD&D as far as I can see, but just nomenclature for describing an evil or chaotic aligned cleric. Their inability to turn undead and reversed cleric spell ability (though note that lawful clerics can use reversed spells, such as finger of death, even if at their peril) is an effct of alignment on the class, not evidence of a separate class in my estimation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22076064616811436472010-10-16T17:52:43.021-04:002010-10-16T17:52:43.021-04:00Anthony,
That is Charles Gray, from the Hammer fi...Anthony,<br /><br />That <i>is</i> Charles Gray, from the Hammer film <i>The Devil Rides Out</i>, where he plays the leader of a cult of demon worshipers.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68124597810636630942010-10-16T17:52:12.325-04:002010-10-16T17:52:12.325-04:00I am not sure it is quite wise to draw a distincti...<i>I am not sure it is quite wise to draw a distinction between a cleric and anti-cleric quite so literally. After all, the "anti-hero" also exists in Chain Mail, but it does not really mean that you have fighters and anti-fighters.</i><br /><br>Anti-Heroes have no existence outside of a separate nomenclature to describe Hero figures who are evil, do they? Do they have any abilities or characteristics that distinguish them from Heroes the way that anti-clerics are distinguished from clerics? Anti-clerics enjoy a strong mechanical distinction from clerics as I read the text, which is why I don't I'm at all mistaken in viewing them as I do.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47857352122408055932010-10-16T17:26:58.932-04:002010-10-16T17:26:58.932-04:00By the way, what movie does that picture come from...By the way, what movie does that picture come from? The actor attacking the woman looks like Charles Gray, who played Mycroft Holmes in the Granada TV production of the Sherlock Holmes stories.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33802026300817856212010-10-16T17:17:34.902-04:002010-10-16T17:17:34.902-04:00I wanted to get away from the monotheist subtext o...I wanted to get away from the monotheist subtext of D&D and the Christian model for the clerisy (a priest/minister tending to a "flock" and proselytizing for his faith) and went with a more Roman/pre-Christian model: one worshipped a god because a) it was your duty, in the case of the state god (if there was one) and b) you prayed to a particular god because it governed the area of life you were concerned with at the moment -- childbirth, agriculture, business, etc. In Latin, they called it "do ut des," meaning "I give (worship) so that you may give (blessings)."<br /><br />In my fantasy games, priests didn't care about gaining worshippers (unless the deity promoted prosetlyzation) , just that their master's rulership of its particular portfolio was respected. It might even be that the god in question didn't have a "flock" per se, as the god's bargain was with the priest himself and worshippers might only be needed for particular rituals or rites - or to feed the priest's ego. :)<br /><br />Nowadays, were I to run a D&D-style game again, I might make all spellcasters "priests," in that magical powers are derived from bargains with supernatural beings, some much more powerful than others. The cleric and MU spell lists would be combined, and priests would have access to those spells appropriate to their patron. Which, now that I think of it, is more BRP-ish in flavor. :/Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24019782197108342992010-10-16T17:15:45.709-04:002010-10-16T17:15:45.709-04:00I am not sure it is quite wise to draw a distincti...I am not sure it is quite wise to draw a distinction between a cleric and anti-cleric quite so literally. After all, the "anti-hero" also exists in <i>Chain Mail</i>, but it does not really mean that you have fighters and anti-fighters.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35184093465154963032010-10-16T15:40:56.115-04:002010-10-16T15:40:56.115-04:00Rob C. Your settings mythology sounds awesome.
...Rob C. Your settings mythology sounds awesome. <br /><br />Despite the "mechanic" of turning undead obviously coming from van helsing and 60's horror movies, clerics and anti-clerics are obviously the first paladins and the pulp shadow/death knights. <br /><br />Evil clerics unfortunately get saddled with the role of demon worshiping cult leader that is probably best served by magic users.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45219742836084284182010-10-16T12:09:32.373-04:002010-10-16T12:09:32.373-04:00I think we in the old school side of things have t...I think we in the old school side of things have tended to over-emphasize--likely for good reasons as a lost thread--the intellectual influence of pulp fantasy in the game's early years and under-emphasize the influence of historical European medieval society. There simply are no clerics as written in the rules in Vance, Howard, Leiber, etc and the case for the fairy-tale Christian one seems so strong in the early game: the spell list that reads like a walk through the Old and New Testament; the blunt weapons proscription; an English saint in Hommlet; the Latin-speaking clerics of Holmes; etc.<br /><br />I guess what I find compelling about the original post and comments here is not so much how we throw out clerics and this history-based side of the game to make a purer swords and sorcery one, but the interesting grappling with how we can build off that seemingly dissonant stew of ideas at the beginning of the game.Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87112577597910246072010-10-16T11:04:10.845-04:002010-10-16T11:04:10.845-04:00My campaign, the Majestic Wilderlands, was influen...My campaign, the Majestic Wilderlands, was influenced by my religious upbringing and Tolkien. While I liked the nuances of different religions with their philosophies, I don't believe in that all things are relative. That there are universal moral standards. That evil isn't a balanced opposing force but a rejection of good and ultimately self-destructive. <br /><br />So the way I got around this is that like Christianity God exists and is the creator. He is known as the One. However like Tolkien he sent his angels/agents, the Lords, as intermediaries to teach the two races of Elves and Man. <br /><br />But this era was shattered when a group rejected the One's plan and fought for dominion of the Wilderlands. They became known as the Demons. <br /><br />After the Demons were imprisoned in the Abyss. The shattered remnants of the Lords decided to withdraw and teach the races through faith and religion. But because the Lords are lesser being than the One they were impacted by the Uttermost War and some didn't come out of it as well as the others.<br /><br />So I have a nuanced polytheistic religion setup but underlying a true evil that all the religion hate and will fight regardless how twisted their philosophies are. The Demon Cultists are my setting version of OD&D's anti clerics.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15658857007465316992010-10-16T11:01:50.365-04:002010-10-16T11:01:50.365-04:00Another thing to remember is that the early printi...Another thing to remember is that the early printings of the 1974 D&D rules did not provide for neutral clerics at all. Every single cleric was Lawful, and every single anti-cleric was Chaotic. This underscores your point even more strongly, James.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7493197980247476172010-10-16T10:55:52.815-04:002010-10-16T10:55:52.815-04:00Re: the picture - That man has no ****ing neck!Re: the picture - That man has no ****ing neck!masquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11421644393539292803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25158238222428253312010-10-16T10:37:47.983-04:002010-10-16T10:37:47.983-04:00Well, from everything I've read and heard abou...Well, from everything I've read and heard about the Early Years of the Game, when the Game Fathers were writing lengthy epistles in Patristic Greek...er, sorry...wrong religion.<br /><br />Ahem...from everything I've read and heard, the metaphysics at work at Gary's table in the very early years was a "fairy tale Manicheanism". <br /><br />I find the term "anti-cleric" clumsy but amusing. However, I'll concede that it is less inflammatory (and problematic for DMs who don't care about such things) than terming them "heretics" or, for the leaders, "heresiarchs".<br /><br />That said, even today IRL there are several anti-popes running around. So, sure, if your campaign world has a Generic Monotheistic Prosyletizing Religion, there should be a leader of some sort...and he should have opponents in the form of leaders of competing or splinter factions.Flambeauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133131881423202010noreply@blogger.com